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My mind kept brewing with this yesterday and it occurred to me, that maybe which messages you take with you from the show could also be influenced by which character you latch on to, so to speak, as a viewer. Which character you identify with and therefor see the stories from their perspective. You will be more inclined to take in the positive message if your character has an overall positive storyline.
Speaking for myself, I mostly identify with Regina and her story arc is overall positive. I also identify with Emma and Snow sometimes and to me, their stories mostly ends with a positive outlook.
Not only that, but also- How much does the stories give to these characters? I mean, Regina she has really been given so much through all her stories both in screen time, positivity arcs and all. Other characters, I can imagine, would be more frustrating to follow if you identify with them, like Rumple and Belle for example. Do you get my point? Im not sure I explained it well.
Nevermore
Anyway, in part, I think the problem is not simply bad morals, but an absence of firm and deliberate world building, with a robust meta-level conversation about that world woven into the storytelling. Well, that, and how they peddle their crappy morality under the guise of positive values.This is also what turned me off of the show a couple of seasons back. They wanna do so much stuff, that a coherent world/story gets lost beneath all the stuff. Its more,, lots of small stories that they try weaving together and when they fail, we see plot holes, recons etc. For me, because I wanted to enjoy the show again (not saying everyone needs to do that) I had to give up my desire to make sense of the world they build. I just hold on like on a Disney merry-go-round and enjoy all the individual images they present to me.
[adrotate group="5"]Watching this, I was like- Ohhh YES UHHH!! Oh No!!!
What an awesome promo. This got me even more exited than last week. How are we supposed to wait a whole week for this?
Its so beautiful ..that dragon- MUSHU !! The music. The mirror. The visuals of Queenie trapping Emma And Regina.. Just Wow I LOVES it ….Holy bejeebers -the beautiful dragon, and the image of Evil Queen with his heart.. amazed!
This Creates all kinds of metaphorical meanings and wows in my mind 🙂 Oh and emma- regina working together to get back from behind the mirror, love that too.Isn’t there a movie, fairy tale, or fable about a couple separated in the same way and Snow and Charming. The girl is a bird during the day and the boy is a wolf at night … they have human forms at opposite times ..and the only time they get be together is a sun rise and sun set when they get to see each other as human for a minute or two. I think the story is NATIVE AMERICAN but it could be from the Slavic countries. I remember bits and pieces from the story but I saw it / read about it many years ago. <
Quick google research found this-
The Day Boy and Night Girl, also referred to as The Romance of Photogen and Nycteris, is an 1882 fairy tale novel by George MacDonald. A version of this story appeared in Harper’s Young People as a series beginning on 2 December 1879 and completing on 6 January 1880.
No wait the one you refer to is “Ladyhawke” I think!!
The other tale that this story reminds me of is about a princess and her seven brothers… they turn into swans all day long flying about, at sunset they turn back into human being. She has to break the curse by a certain day or they stay swans forever. She has to sew each one a shirt without help from anyone. She makes the shirts and put the shirts on her brothers changing them back into humans. She did not complete one of the shirts so one brother ends up with a swan wing instead of an arm. (??? SWAN LAKE???) CAN anyone help me with this?Quote
This one is “The Wild Swans”- by Hans C. Andersen
Havent done the rating before but Id say 8/10 better that avrage and actually real good.
Favorite scene was where Evil Queen takes the Charmings heart. It was visually so well made, the camera angles and that heart when it was cursed and was beating, that looked awsome. And sound the effects, like -Shclyyp!! When Evil Queen ripped out the heart”s” Plus it was so well acted too, to no ones surprise.. Disdain for Snow and delight at winning dripping off of Evil Queen.
I loved the idea of having the Charmings share a sleeping curse with their shared hearts and this being Evil Queens best revenge, to have Snow be without her loved one.. Its so cruel!.. right up Evil Queen alley.
The Rumple and Belle scene was also great. That speech she gave him was spot on. You Go Girl! finally she is seing the light.
SciencevsMagic
Related to the article, which was brilliant, right on topic.- But this is true for any and all stories on tv and elsewhere.. every story will have underlying issues, because these are underlying in our society as a whole. As it relates to this topic we are discussing: Are the story of the villains not showing enough remorse? or making up enough for their evil doings? I say yes, the issue is there, as you say, but I believe it is outweighed by the story’s positive message.
In the case of the villains-
1. A viewer, who takes a positive message from the story, might go out and forgive a friend for a wrongdoing.
2. A viewer, who takes a negative message, might go out and think. ‘Well I don’t need to apologize for doing this person wrong, let’s just forget it ever happened.
Both might happen, but as I stated, I believe the positive message outweighs (or outshines- as in, most viewers will see this) the negative, therefore I believe that most viewers will also go out and do the former.
Rumplesgirl
quote- “This is a bit of thin ice argument. Your sample size of one (yourself) doesn’t ipso facto mean that others don’t see the bad morality in OUAT. The sample size of those who do see OUAT as having some pretty bad themes so far in this conversation is 3. By simple math, we outnumber you lol but I would never say that our 3-person opinion extends to all 4 million people who watch the show.”
Uhm but you just did. Or, you tried to use your example of being three, as that being a better argument then my being just one. Its just as thin I would say. But we can only speak for ourselves, that’s what I meant ,when I said I didn’t see it myself. We would need to make an examination of the whole viewer base of Once to really know.
quote “And again, I cannot say this enough, your morals and attitudes can be affected without you knowing it. You keep suggesting that OUAT isn’t affecting anyone because they won’t straight up see these bad morals but internalizing is done on a subconscious level without your knowledge; it happens when you passively accept depictions of amorality without decrying it.”
And again, I cannot say enough- I KNOW and I agree, our morals are affected by what we see on tv. I don’t keep suggesting viewers are not affected by Once.. I keep suggesting that they are mostly affected in a positive way. Iike I said, I still disagree that what viewers will take away from this show are mostly bad stuff, they very likely will take away some bad stuff also, but the overall picture, the overall message,, I still say is a positive one.
quote “And *this* is what’s wrong with the whole “it’s just a TV show” argument.”
I feel you have an issue with me saying that argument. When I said that, I didn’t mean it as an attack against you, or anyone who takes the show serious. As I said, anybody is free to take the show as serious as they would like. I just meant that, I don’t take issue to much with what I see on the show, because to me the show is just fun entertainment (not getting into the whole thing about, the underlying messages here, that is taken up elsewhere)
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But what are we supposed to do, if we want to either tell ourselves, or see as a viewer, a story about Batman (using an example from the article SCvsM had linked) if we wont have violence in the story? Without it, it would be a pretty boring story. A lot of the stories that are told in our days would not be able to be told, if we always needed to see things from the highest of moral standards. (and this is not getting into the topics of either gender or race or other such issues, but just related to the topic of Villains and redeeming them ) I have a feeling you guys are gonna read tons of bad things into what I just said there 😉 I don’t mean that storytellers are exempt from trying to doo better and trying to go in the direction of giving their audients better morals, instead of worse ones. Im simply trying to say, they also have to be carefull not to limit the stories, but that is a balance…
Storytellers will tell their stories,, really, you could say it’s a form of conversation and we who listen to the stories, will give our answers back, this way the stories will keep changing.. and as the storytellers are only human beings, they will fall into traps and screw up some stuff and we as audients,, We can laugh of it, learn from it, but also be held back by it and do worse because of it. But eventually we will get to somewhere better, in spite of what horrible stuff we learn from tv. I mean, if we look back in time, we have definitely gotten to a better place in spite of all the bad underlying, unintentional things stories have stated as truths. We will learn the good along the way. But this is related to a very much bigger conversation, to me.
I still believe that the moral we can pull from the stories of the Villains on Once, are by in large, a positive story of forgiveness.
But if we get into other things than just the “Villains and their redemption, without them being apologetic enough to their victims” If we talk, for instance- Gender roles, as RumplesGirl mentions, then the ground becomes more shaky also for me.
A couple of questions as examples: Why Do all the female villains have to answer to Rumple? Why are they most powerful when they are angry? and why most sexy when they are most villainous?? Also couldn’t they have thrown in at least one lead female, who didnt need a man to feel like she had her happy ending.
But I believe these things all say more about Adam and Eddy being intimidated by powerful woman (but they also find them sexy, so we could take that as a compliment 😉 ) -then they say anything about what message they try to convey on gender equality.
: Oh you guys sometime use words I don’t quite understand, but I hope I did get all of your meanings right!
Rumplegirl
quote “Our society (be it as large “TV viewer” or as tiny as “home life”) colors our world even if its on a subconscious level that you don’t recognize or “see” happening. ……Even if you aren’t saying out loud “it’s okay that I act this way (aggressive, passive) because I saw it on TV” you are still internalizing these depictions and allowing them to be normalized in everyday life.”
I agree, I just disagree that this show ‘Once’ is bad for anybody’s morals. I think I will leave it at that, because I have explained why I feel that way.
quote “Trying to pinpoint one exact cause is fruitless. I also think you’re disregarding the fact that people can be turned off by something they consider amoral AND still keep watching.”
I wasn’t trying to pinpoint any cause for why people would stop watching. I was only saying that I don’t think the shows moral message, as you’ve perceived it, is what will turn too many viewers off, but it will probably turn some off Im sure…but as I see it, most people will not see these bad moral messages on this show. At least I really don’t see them… But I could be outnumbered of course 🙂
I have no idea what the thing with the Ruby Slippers is about. I might try and look it up on the forums, if I have time.
Sciencevsmagic
1)Is it the message itself that’s problematic? If the message was -As I think you suggested, that doing bad things are not important. If you do them just be sorry about it, forget them, and move on.
Then yes we agree that’s problematic.
2) Is this really the message endorsed by the show? This is where I say -No it isn’t the message they are trying to convey. What they want to convey, but of course could be failing too, Is a message of forgiveness and friendship. That is why less emphasis on the evil doings more on the humans, the main characters, learning to work together.
3) Does it matter? So back to the first point, lets say- The message perceived by the viewer is the first: Bad deeds don’t matter, be sorry and move on. Now I agree this would matter and this would be problematic, if it was, as you say, that message which most viewers take away from the show…
But again, I disagree. This is not what most viewers will take away. Again, as I have stated my opinion about,, this is because (Evil deeds)are so much in the background, that they become irrelevant to the story we are seeing, most people are not going to think too deeply about them.
Then you say- but they might on a subconscious level. And yes, I will give you all that. If this is indeed the case,, then that is a problem. I only doubt that this show has that effect on people, because of all the good things that happen on the show. I feel that the good messages outweigh, this bad message that you say is subconsciously there, which I still disagree on.
One of the main moral lessons, that I think the show tries to give is -Anything can be forgiven- That’s one positive lesson a viewer can get from the show. Then some might think, but some things are hard to forgive, some things I don’t want to forgive. And that is up to each individual. But never the less, this is the message the show want to convey on this subject.
quote “Giving someone lots of screen time signals that they are important, while showing a situation from a particular character’s POV is a means of generating sympathy for that character. Our minds are receptive to these conventions because they fit with how we naturally process reality. ………. showing villains, humanising villains and rewarding villains while not spending adequate time dealing with their sins does, I think, reinforce the unhealthy messages we’ve outlined.”
Okay and on this point I think, I did touch in the first post on this topic: We can always discuss the writer’s choice to tell the story from the villain’s perspective and of then making the villains so very vile, as they did end up doing. Regina and Rumple’s Enchanted Forest selves was as vile as humans come. I think the writers chose to do that because they had to, to keep these characters as close to the original or their Disney versions as they could. Partly because, they work under Disney regime and partly because, these are characters known to the all viewers (at least Evil Queen was back then)And they wanted a vile Evil Queen, they didn’t want a mellowed down on. But it’s hard to come back from. It no easy task trying to redeem someone who killed an entire village. Anyway that’s what they chose to try to do
And then this is where some will disagree with the writers, that they have put so little emphasis on the making up for these evil deeds. They showed the acts, but they didnt show much of the resolutions. But that is where I say. How were they ever gonna be able to show enough resolution, for those acts to be completely forgiven?…From a victims point of view? They would never be able to show that resolution, because in the real world, that would mean a whole lot of years of jail time.
Then some say, they should have shown the villains apologizing to at least one of their victim, a peasant from the forest fx,. Or they should have shown the villains working to give their victims a better life after what they did to them. Now this I definitely agree with.. That would have been great. That would have been a wonderful story, but it wouldnt be the one we are seeing. That is why the writers chose to not emphasize the evil deeds or their resolution too much… only so that they could tell the story that they wanted.
On that choice we can agree or disagree with the writers. I think I would have liked it a little different, but I doo like this story and how it turned out in the end.
Anyway I feel that we are going around in circles a bit, or is it just me who feels this? I like this conversation but if we want to continue it, then how do we move on from these same points?
Look at how much conversation a simple little curse word sparked 🙂 Its like magic! And once again this turned out as one h… of a long post.
Sciencevsmagic: Yes it might not have been worse. And thats were you say, it would have been better and I say, to me it would have just been different. But since I like the story for what it is now, I wouldnt want it to be different (Atleast not that aspect of it, but I could mention many other aspects, which I would have liked to be different)
But had they made more scenes of the main characters being conflicted by, but eventually coming together with the villains, I wouldnt have been mad at that either, cause those scenes have all been lovely.
I like your idea about the Robin character, that would have suited him well.
quote SvsM- “The problem is, the show and its messages will influence you whether you take it seriously or not. They will bypass your critical faculties and impact you on a subconcious level.”
It very interesting what you are saying here. And while I dont think any viewers will go out and do evil (or at least just bad things) or have a worse idea about their fellow humans, based on what they see on Once- I think you are right, when you say that on a subconscious level, we doo get our morals from tv, tvshows and stories in general. But its interesting how we then disagree, that this show will influence its viewer in a positive or a negative way. You say tomato and I say potato.. Lol I say that because, it might be both. If you see the bad,, that’s what gonna influence you, if you see the good, it’s that which will influence you… but that’s interesting to think about…. And I don’t know the answer to this.
Rumplesgirl mentions-viewers might stop watching or feel less inclined to watch. Yes that’s everyone’s free choice. If you don’t like it you can flip the channel. When a lot of viewers do that, they cancel the show. However, I don’t think the moral aspects are what will turn a lot of viewers off from the show in the end.
-Adopt either language or acts on a subconscious level: If I have understood correctly, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but, you think kids (or viewers in general)Will be influenced badly from the show. .What Im trying to say is, I don’t think this will happen, because of how little meaning the actual evil acts have to the story on the show, because its pushed so far into the background. But like above its. Potato- tomato- it might be both, but I believe it depends on you,, and what you see in the show,, I don’t see justice undone I see… something else. Which I think I might have already said 😉 I might have been influenced on some deep subconscious level to think something bad, or doo worse in some situation, but I highly doubt it, it remains to be seen though I guess.
And also we haven’t seen the stories to the end yet.. the stuff you both mentioned might still happen in some way or form. We will see..
Nevermore:
quote- “BUT. Your argument sits a bit uncomfortably with me. In part because it reminds me of how people will defend a sexist/classist/racist joke by saying “hey, it’s just a joke,”
Well no thats definitely not what I was trying to say.
quote “What feels like inconsequential, unrealistic camp to some people, for others might hit a string — intentionally or not — and their response might be different, and more negative.”
Hmm you have a good point. Yes we will view the show all with our own eyes and through our own life experiences and perspectives. So what you say is, some people might sympathize with a victim on the show more, if they have life experiences that makes them see it from that perspective and then they will want to see more justice for them, but I just don’t think the creators of the show put much emphasis on the victims and the justice, because that isn’t really the story they want to tell.. So its just there in the background of the main story. Im just one of those who are fine with it being in the background, but others might not be. And that’s okay.. LOL I think we should just agree to disagree on this at this point.
But I also must confess, that there is a lot of the stories that I haven’t seen, because I didn’t watch full episodes from around the start of season 4- with the Elsa storyline and up till now,, but Im in the process of catching up. That might also influence why I see this differently from you guys.
And maybe Im just infatuated with Loving feelings for Once right now.. And Im seeing butterflies all over the place. Im telling you- that’s what a break from the show will do to you!
Im sorry if I make really long posts sometimes. But I find these convos interesting, so I have lots to say 🙂 sometimes I just have a hard time explaining myself in english and the posts come out really long.
