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The Outsiders of Uskoken Castle – Thomas Held
Detective in Togas – Henry Winterfeld
The Last Man Alive – A.S. Neill
Lord of The Rings and The Silmarillion – J.R.R. Tolkien (to name just the two books that got me into this fantasy world)
The Complete Stories of Franz Kafka
John Sinclair a German pulp fiction series, it’s a bit like Dresden Files or John Constantine
Frankenstein – Mary Shelley
Der Steppenwolf – Hermann Hesse
The Turning Point – Klaus Mann
The Diaries of Hans and Sophie Scholl[adrotate group="5"]¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Alas, the powers that be are staying mum. “We’d rather than not comment on who it is with or what it is about,” executive producer Adam Horowitz tells EW. “Our goal is to make it as we see it in the real world, just as normal and as a part of every day life as it should be.”
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/20/once-upon-time-lgbt-relationship
(emphasis me)
Then stop making such a crapy secret of it.
Have they noticed by the way, that they are not writing a show about everyday life but a show with fairy tales, magic and fairy tale characters, with the big, big meta theme of love? Nevertheless, of course a gay relationship should appear like a part of everyday life in OUaT (unless one would like to make a point about OUaT society, but that’s not their deal anyway), very d’accord with that. But making it everyday life on OuaT won’t change, that for the show, for a take on classical and as much Disney fairy tale characters on TV, prime time Sunday broadcast network show, this is unfortunately as things are still a special thing, if they like it or not. It will stand out and is media and social media feast. Blame decades of ignorance and invisibility for that, the still existing lack of representation and diversity on screen, but handle it. Seriously, they as writers experienced in TV and film bizz really should know the difference between the reality inside their creative universe, inside the worlds of OUaT, and the audience’s and society’s reality. Otherwise go to some films school, take online courses, or read up on it.
And maybe, maybe, they just simply shouldn’t do that much “blabla we don’t spoil but still want to get you all riled up and excited” talk in the first place. Instead of announcing that they are going to do a gay relationship months before whatever, just do it. That is what they don’t get. Show, don’t talk.
My experience: Shows talking much and long about it before showing usually manage to only write token gay relationships and at worst do queer baiting, fall for the Sweep week lesbian kiss trope for example. Shows simply doing it without talking for months about it beforehand, are more likely shows getting it right. So, my expectations concerning this for OUaT are very, very low anyway by now, but my disappointment about how much the show is a miss in diversity is not decreasing. Bold failure.
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Hmmm I wonder if perhaps in-universe the reason she doesn’t specify that it’s Aurora is that perhaps people of the EF are not so accepting of such and she is perhaps just being careful because she doesn’t know that they’ll think.
If that is so, it’s still a writing choice to make acceptance of gay, lesbian, transgender, intersexual, queer people an issue inside of the reality of the OUaT worlds too. But then it shouldn’t be something dropped by the way but actually made visible and reflected on. But this show doesn’t do that, reflect on society and culture, in general they don’t do it. Lack of caring resulting in lack of world building. It’s the same with throw away lines like “Oh, she’s a woman” – those lines are not there because of well thought out look at the worlds of OUaT, not because of actually being aware of societal issues inside the worlds of OUaT universe, IMO they are merely there because of our, the writers’ and audience’s reality, creating a nod or a joke. It’s all about punchlines.
Someone somewhere compared the episode with Dreamy – an episode which could have been about a love between different kind of people not accepted by society around them, and in the case of the Dwarves at least could have been a look at Asexuality and romance without naming it, an episode that many see as the most boring and out of connection episode so far, but The Bear King might be a match. Really odd for a show which the show runners claim to be about love and hope, that reflecting on diverse love is something they don’t know how to write good about. Furthermore, that they don’t make it an inbuilt theme at least in context with recurring characters but only once in a while feel like they have to do some special, out of context episode or even just a nearly forgettable moment. Their imagination of love is stuck somewhere in 1950s disneyfied white sub-urban middle-class idyll. That is when my disappointment about the show becomes a bit of anger, because OUaT is a show in the 21st century, a show claiming a modern new look at fairy tales, but what we get is some retrogeek fluff with boyish giggle.
Things like that have a place on the TV menue, but it’s silly entertainment and nothing innovative. And honestly, think a show like The Librarians does a better job with silly entertainment and fairy tales mythology wild mix. Different from OUat they don’t aspire to be anything but. The show runners of OUaT created expectations, and they are failing to fulfill them.
I get why the show nevertheless still has a huge LBGTQI+ following, and not reduced to SwanQueen shippers. It was the promise of a different, modern look at fairy tales, the promise of love and hope, but as much, not to underestimate, camp. We love camp, don’t we, costumes and dramatic makeup and stagy big gestures and mimic seldom fail to get us. Just missing the bombastic, cheesy music at times, no belt out “Let it go!” here.
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Don’t know what they are thinking they are doing. And there are a number of shows doing better, did better before and do better at the moment. You want to see bold? Go to Netflix and watch Sense8, maybe Jessica Jones premiering this Friday. On mainstream broadcast… Grey’s Anatomy, How to get Away with Murder, and surprise, surprise both on ABC, although not fantasy fairy tale fluff, just modern life prime time drama soaps. And thinking of trailblazer Willow and Tara – 16 years ago on screen, Henry jr, wasn’t even born when that aired, and more progressive though somewhat hush-hush, but that was more than a decade ago. Boldly? Not this show, not by far, they are not bold with anything – aside creating some story telling mess. I thought they were more progressive and innovative, in season 1, but that was a mistake, they are not. I have given up hope for this show before the season began, my expectation for this episode was just a little hope that they wouldn’t totally mess up these two characters bringing them back, more curiosity than hope made me watch it. As much as I tought Mulan and Red would be a logical and good choice maybe even, I was not counting on it.
Would they care about a boycott? Doubt it. They’re five season in, can’t hurt them much. Should we keep watching the show? I am not a regular viewer anymore anyway and part of it is their ignorance towards diversity and some other things as the story telling and character mess the show has become. There are better shows to watch. Not to mention books, graphic novels to read.
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HOW could they even pass this off as an LGBT relationship?? I swear I was expecting a kiss, a personal, intimate moment between them. SOMETHING! All I saw was three girls doing hardcore stuff. I see no LGBT relationship.
I saw some eye sex, interest, even a bit of cute awkwardness between Mulan and Red. I am admittedly not a fan though of love on first sight schmaltz of romantic movies, so I don’t mind that Mulan and Red weren’t already smooching at the end of the episode, after like maybe at best a few couple of days of knowing each other. And considering how little the true love main cast couples get to kiss and be intimate on this show, why should that be any different with Mulan and Red?
Now I do agree that it was despite some chemistry and eye sex and cute awkwardness and teasing still left wide open if what we got to see was the beginning of a romance or just a new friendship. If it were a different show, if we had already plenty of diversity on screen, if we would live in utopia I might be all for slow development a la Emma and Hook, but we don’t live yet in utopia and diversity is a problem in society, on screen and even more so on this show. So a more bold and clear statement right now would have been progress, don’t need more delayed hope and guessing games for whatever allegedly surprising twist (which so seldom are surprising even if not following spoilers that closely by now, I think, the writers are predictable). I just don’t fancy anymore stupid discussions of do they or don’t they in this case. They made it way too easy for people to stay ignorant, even in denial of Mulan having had feelings of love for Aurora, to cover their ears and shout, it’s nothing but friendship. It’s overdue for this show to at least boldly go where other shows have boldly gone before long time ago (well, okay, not long time ago but feels like it when I look now at shows like on ABC family The Fosters or even more Netflix’ Sense8 and think of trailblazer Willow and Tara on Buffy, and that was 16 years ago, kids born those years are by now teenagers struggling with their first loves, a little older than Henry maybe). What they did was more the hush-hush of 80s/90s mainstream TV, but nothing bold.
Thing is, that even though I think they likely are romantic, even with all my years of experience in reading sub- as much as opentext I am after this episode at a loss, if Mulan and Red are going to be romantic or not.
I was upset that the writers seem to be proclaiming in interviews “Hey! We’re gonna be doing an LGBT story!”, and yet they can’t even have Mulan say she, instead of doing the vague pronoun BS to dance around it. It’s kind of offense, but I’m curious as to how much control they have with ABC (Who apparently is also preventing LGBT dancing on DWTS).
So I was not the only one noticing the pronoun. Well, maybe Mulan had feelings for Aurora and Philip and we get the bold surprise of polyamory as possibility in OUaT? Unlikely, but can sometimes dream that the impossible is just a mere word away from fictional reality. Or so. Maybe it sneaked in? Alright that would mean either rushed writing, not caring, no good writing skills or a slip by the actor, none of the option much of a good choice. Or Mulan is meant to be a bit shy about having feelings for a princess? That would be maybe the best version of an explanation. Or indeed they had not the spine to be open about it or thought it was somehow important for some unreasonable story plot surprise reasons to keep it still vague.
I don’t read a ton of spoilers… was it guaranteed to be in this episode or is it something we can maybe see soon? Not that I think they will continue showing Ruby and Mulan. That was probably a one time deal…
It was speculation by media and fans. Reasonable speculation , but it wasn’t promised for this episode, just that they would do LGBT this season, and not for Mulan and even less Red, just said that they would do some LGBT love story, “a love story that is as exciting, emotional and heartfelt as any other love story”. See Horowitz Interview, The Hollywoodreporter
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Was anyone else wholly disappointed in the presentation of an LGBT relationship because…there was none? Did I miss something?
HOW could they even pass this off as an LGBT relationship?? I swear I was expecting a kiss, a personal, intimate moment between them. SOMETHING! All I saw was three girls doing hardcore stuff. I see no LGBT relationship.
I saw some eye sex, interest, even a bit of cute awkwardness between Mulan and Red. I am admittedly not a fan though of love on first sight schmaltz of romantic movies, so I don’t mind that Mulan and Red weren’t already smooching at the end of the episode, after like maybe at best a few couple of days of knowing each other. And considering how little the true love main cast couples get to kiss and be intimate on this show, why should that be any different with Mulan and Red?
I do agree that it was despite some chemistry and eye sex and cute awkwardness and teasing still left wide open if what we got to see was the beginning of a romance or just a new friendship. If it were a different show, if we had already plenty of diversity on screen, if we would live in utopia I might be all for slow development a la Emma and Hook, but we don’t live yet in utopia and diversity is a problem in society, on screen and even more so on this show. So a more bold and clear statement right now would have been progress, don’t need more delayed hope and guessing games for whatever allegedly surprising twist (which so seldom are surprising even if not following spoilers that closely by now, I think, the writers are predictable). I just don’t fancy anymore stupid discussions of do they or don’t they in this case. They made it way too easy for people to stay ignorant, even in denial of Mulan having had feelings of love for Aurora, to cover their ears and shout, it’s nothing but friendship. It’s overdue for this show to at least boldly go where other shows have boldly gone before long time ago (well, okay, not long time ago but feels like it when I look now at shows like on ABC family The Fosters or even more Netflix’ Sense8 and think of trailblazer Willow and Tara on Buffy, and that was 16 years ago, kids born those years are by now teenagers struggling with their first loves, a little older than Henry maybe). What they did was more the hush-hush of 80s/90s mainstream TV, but nothing bold.
Thing is, that even though I think they likely are romantic, even with all my years of experience in reading sub- as much as opentext I am after this episode at a loss, if Mulan and Red are going to be romantic or not. Shows how this show’s writing made me a distrustful
I was upset that the writers seem to be proclaiming in interviews “Hey! We’re gonna be doing an LGBT story!”, and yet they can’t even have Mulan say she, instead of doing the vague pronoun BS to dance around it. It’s kind of offense, but I’m curious as to how much control they have with ABC (Who apparently is also preventing LGBT dancing on DWTS).
So I was not the only one noticing the pronoun. Well, maybe Mulan had feelings for Aurora and Philip and we get the bold surprise of polyamory as possibility in OUaT? Unlikely, but can sometimes dream that the impossible is just a mere word away from fictional reality. Or so. Maybe it sneaked in? Alright that would mean either rushed writing, not caring, no good writing skills or a slip by the actor, none of the option much of a good choice. Or Mulan is meant to be a bit shy about having feelings for a princess? That would be maybe the best version of an explanation. Or indeed they had not the spine to be open about it or thought it was somehow important for some unreasonable story plot surprise reasons to keep it still vague.
I don’t read a ton of spoilers… was it guaranteed to be in this episode or is it something we can maybe see soon? Not that I think they will continue showing Ruby and Mulan. That was probably a one time deal…
It was speculation by media and fans. Reasonable speculation , but it wasn’t promised for this episode, just that they would do LGBT this season, and not for Mulan and even less Red, just said that they would do some LGBT love story, “a love story that is as exciting, emotional and heartfelt as any other love story”. See Horowitz Interview, The Hollywoodreporter
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Red was over being with werewolves before the Regina cast her curse. Red felt ambiguous about magic returning then to Storybrooke, but still she as much noticed, that if ever anyone from the world without magic would learn about Storybrooke and people like her, it might not be a good thing. She was back in the Enchanted Forest for a year, maybe finding some joy again being able to wolf out. Meanwhile Snow was busy with her own family affairs.
Don’t see character assassination but a change of mind, and change of mind can happen, even in fairy tales. It’s not like she was turned into a whiny coward all of a sudden or some stage diva. Red felt isolated, that was something despite her friendship with Snow and being useful comrade in arms for others ever fully left Red as feeling, and something not even Granny could help her much with.
The problem I see is less that Red could have changed her mind about some things but that we never got to see the process, because she was hidden in the fridge, closet, reorganizing the cellar or whatever she was doing all the time. So now it appears like coming out of the blue, and people struggle to make sense of it.
Having given up on reasonable world building on this show even can take the oh so convenient magical bean they were able to grow out of the ashes.
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Well. They are going to do an LGBT relationship with someone this season. We don’t know whom with , but my guess is Mulan and…someone. I’d say Merida since both are more apt to vanish off to Forgotten Character Island/Bathroom after this season.
I believe it when I see it. The few sentences by the creators, made big by media headlines, sounded not much different from what they’ve said too many times before.
Neat thing for the writers is, they left it ambiguous enough what Mulan wanted to say to Aurora the last time we saw her, so that they could go on as if nothing were there. At least some in the audience still are in utter and wishful denial and insisting, Mulan wanted to confess to her best friend Aurora that she has feelings for Philip. And these people insist, Mulan had feelings for Philip, so in their ignorant black-and-white logic she can’t have feelings of the same kind for a woman at all (of course, bi- or pansexual people are unicorns and not real or at best in a phase, I know, I live with being less believable than a creature of myth and fairy tales for well 30 years now).
If they pick up for once where they left the story of a character, they should work with Mulan as LGBTQI character. I don’t want a typical coming-out story, LGBTQI drama, they could do something better. If it were me, I would bring Mulan back with a woman at her side, she met her in the time in between, is now happily in love, and as a team and without big questions by others, they help to safe the day, hold the fort. I mean, it would fit to the shows writing pattern to let a lot of relationship building dynamic happen off screen, and it would avoid a tiresome coming-out story trap.
And when the day is saved, then let Mulan and her love just ride away into the sunset, or sunrise for a change, happily to some far, far away land, so these writers can leave them well alone.
We’ll see.
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Thought this fits here. A short look into the history about ideas of love and soulmate.
Think OUaT started with an interesting variety of ideas on love, but unfortunately they got stuck in a narrowing romantic trap by now.
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Very unintentional, I think.
Disney was a good storyteller in his way, but he was no writer, so don’t get anyway, why he ever should have been one of the authors here. Walt Disney was a great business man, good at marketing, he had a good nose for what stories people wanted to see. Disney’s name became a brandmark for entertaining good storytelling in a variety of forms. Aside that he at some point developed some ideas or visions for a different, better (?) future for urban living, keyword City of Tomorrow or EPCOT.
I had a big grin, when the boss told Isaac, that he hired him because he thought he would be a storyteller, and that story telling is means to sell. In marketing, and particular online marketing, story telling is the big thing at the moment, as if story telling hadn’t always been a key to successful sales. Look at good advertising over decades, they tell stories.
Did people before and after Disney create much more imaginative stories? Maybe, but might depend on what is defined as imaginative. Disney was sure imaginative in business, something some writers, being great at creating imaginative worlds, might miss as talent on the other hand.
Disney movies haven been and are imaginative and entertaining, though they might be eventually somewhat unoriginal and lack the depth of top level drama.
Furthermore, I think recording stories is an art in itself. Can try it yourself, sit down in a cafe for example and record in words what you are seeing and what is happening around you. Then take that and give it a friend to read and let them retell in what they pictured while reading your record. Even if you do it with a video camera you will have influence on the recording, as simple things as camera angels can change how we perceive a person, can make something interesting or boring.
And Isaac’s imagination looked to me rather blunt, what we got to see from his book was cheesy and not any complex but simplifying.It was rather unoriginal and I hesitate to call that imaginative.
You can be that by the way, blunt and rather unimaginative like I think Isaac was, and still be successful as writer, see Twilight series and even more so Fifty Shades of Grey.
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