[Myril]

Thanks @rumplegoldfan for your great insights and thoughts. And, I promise, I will try not to veer too deep into feminist theories and discussions, to keep things close to the show.

Nevertheless…

Third wave feminism with its turning to the idea, that we can have it all, that equality is something that can be individually achieved, much based on the assumption that norms and laws in society are mostly making it possible by now, so that it’s now about women making a choice, has been in my view always falling short. It meant ignoring or underestimating that restraining gender images and norms are still very much ingrained in the structures even of modern, Western societies, whatever laws and grand speeches say (besides ignoring that choice was at best only true for a privileged minority of mostly white women). For example women in higher working positions are still questioned in their femaleness, a woman deciding for career and against children is pitied or hated, while a man doing so is more judged as making sacrifice for society (or the company). Most of the time though men don’t have to make a choice against family, they can trust a wife to have their back in that matter. That is not the same for women, even if they have men supporting them, they are still seen as doing something exceptional for women, and their men staying at home and doing the family work struggle to be still seen as full men.

It was always wrong to understand it as appeal to be all independent of men, do it all yourself, or even feel guilty about being nicely courted. Golly, no. There is nothing wrong in letting the man pay dinner, only if it is taken as an obligation and not coming as a true gesture of appreciation or generosity. There is nothing wrong if a man opens the door, but he shouldn’t do it because I am a woman, but because it is a nice gesture or might be even helpful. And it is okay when personal, private relationships are more important for someone, but that it regardless gender. When I am in love with a person that person is important, and yes, it can happen it’s a man. I love when he spoils me but as much I love to spoil him. It’s great when he takes care of things for me as long as he asks, as long he doesn’t take it as his prerogative to take care of all of my things unasked for and expect me to be just the nice decoration of his living room and kitchen. When I am in love with a woman though it is the very same, there is no difference (yes, I am bisexual).

Was there no need for Killian/Hook to be in the past EF with Emma? There was no need. Did it make Emma a damsel in distress and hamper her development as strong woman? Neither.

You’re right, life changes people, constantly, as I see it we change every day, with every new thought and interaction with people, much of it is subtle, has no (immediately) visible effect. Sometimes there are bigger changes, but some people never seem to change much ever. But as it happens in life so of course change should happen for fictional characters.

The question raised though is more about, how is change shown, what are reasons, agents of change? We should be able to identify with or understand characters, and we should go on their journey with them, but to me that doesn’t mean it has to reflect the journey we usually make in our reality, it can as well be a play with different options, alternatives. Fiction can help us to reflect our reality, test ideas we have how to do things differently or discover new ideas.

When people say, a fictional character acted out of character it means, what the person does, reacts is not plausible to them. Now the sweetest, loveliest, friendliest person on earth might suddenly turn around and slap a person – that might be not out of character (OOC). That people act differently than we expect them is not per se OOC, there might be reasons. But task for a storyteller is to make it plausible. If people think, a character is OOC that can be either a problem of their perception or the writer failed, might not even have tried to make it plausible, or it can be a mix of both.

This was about Emma, creating a relationship with EMMA.

Was it? Maybe it was meant to be that, but it seems to me that some of the audience got lost on the way, didn’t really made that journey with Emma to feel more comfortable with herself, with accepting that she is part of a strange fairy tale world, savior and all package. But why did they have to sent her for that back in time (besides that it was geeky and entertaining fun)?. Emma had to become an active part in the history of her parents, leave a more or less visible trace in their history before Emma’s birth, in the storybook, so that Emma now feels ready to embrace herself? I find that somewhat skewed. Shouldn’t her parents give her in the here and now the feeling of belonging, of home? Is it just a question of how Emma approached things, her emotions, actions and reactions, her psychology? I don’t quite see why this journey into past, this sentimental trip should truly make Emma feel now more at home with her parents. It’s like saying, do some therapy in the form of a mental trip into the past of your family, and things will be fine. Don’t get me wrong, therapy can help, even the classical Freudian trip into your past, psychoanalytical therapy can clarify, can open eyes, give a new view on things, but you have to do nevertheless the work to build a solution, do relationship work in the presence.

But there is hope, there is another season, and they need some story to tell there, don’t they. Just not that optimistic that they will tell this, kinda the other side necessary to make this truly a family, particular Snow still has to do some journey.

Just because we didn’t see an Emma/Henry hug doesn’t mean one didn’t happen. A lot of stuff happens off screen unfortunately (such as Belle reuniting with her father) which is a flaw of the show, but Henry wasn’t the focus of the scene, Emma recognising Snowing as her parents and home was.

Could have happened off screen. But it is a choice to let it happen there and not include Henry in this. This time trip was about Emma and her parents, her connection to their world, not to Henry, right. Henry didn’t play much of a role all over the second half of the season, he was barely anything else but a breathing prompter and plot device. Doesn’t mean that Emma doesn’t love him, doesn’t care, but it can be read as that the writers found Henry not worth to be included much in this part of Emma’s journey. It was Emma’s journey, but it was about family and defining home – and that Henry was made barely a part of it is remarkable and questionable.

[Myril]

Wouldn’t call Emma a damsel in distress either, not in the EF time trip nor in present Storybrooke and pretty sure she knows how to take care of herself in our world. That is not my point, she is a hero, and the show shows her as such, she gets herself out of situations and saves others, she makes a living on her own. Look at the Have-to-give-up-powers-to-save-love trope stunt they did with Hook and the cursed lips, reversed gender roles. Emma picks the lock in Regina’s dungeon, and would probably have been out of the dungeon with Marian without Hook, Charming and Red helping, while Hook and Charming “needed” Red’s help to get in (one can argue though, they could have made it without her as well, just needed a guide, like Emma had good help with Hook in some moments).

They’ve made Emma daddy’s girl, and that is so gender role cliche though sure not unrealistic. But it’s part of the commonly accepted, rather convenient female hero trope (one not questioning roles in society). As a hero Emma can’t be mamma’s girl, nope. David is a sword-fighter, and Emma picks up sword-fighting (and magically seems to be apt with it even without any training lessons), not bow and arrow, the weapons of choice of her mother. One can argue, sword-fighting is a bit easier to do without training than using a longbow, but so what? That is technicality, this is fantasy story. I would rather rant about the miracle of Emma being able to be good at archery in just a day training with her mother as something unrealistic than not see her doing it at all (but admittedly, I find archery far more interesting than any sword wielding martial arts). Emma has positive bonding moments with David, but more awkward and conflict moments with her mother. Good old mother-daughter-is-complicated trope, while daughters somehow bond so much easier with their fathers at some point (and sons with their mothers, but won’t sidetrack with Oedipus/Electra-complex). Furthermore, while mothers are maybe good to give advice and be role-models and mentors if it comes to family, childbirth and keeping a household organized, anything concerning career (and being a hero is more of a career thing) falls under fatherly competence (gendernormed societal images). OUat is no different in this. There is nothing innovative about it, no new twists of character, it’s just retelling the same character structures and roles with some more modern language.

There is more. While it is possible, that Emma learned some burglar skills before she met Neal, all we did get to see so far was them together on a thieving tour, at least suggesting that Neal improved Emma’s burglar skills, even more so now with the scene in the final. I get the logic of the scene, making Neal the one who gave Emma words what home could mean, or be noticed as such, but to me that scene was mostly fanservice. As was the dancing ball scene with Hook btw, which though at the same time as well had a function in the over all story telling arc of season 3, a throwback to the nightmare David had (and what a symbolism is in that, but that’s for somewhere else to discuss)

It’s not like these writers know nothing about their job, they are good writers in many ways, but they are falling for many tropes nevertheless. Sometimes they do that even on purpose, can be okay with that even, but sometimes I doubt they even notice.

Emma makes her first steps in magic with Rumple mentoring her (like he mentored Cora, Regina, Zelena). Snow at least remembers something she saw watching Cora when she does the little magic trick with the ink in the cell. People have ranted, why the Blue Fairy doesn’t give some guidance to Emma while she’s trying to get a grip on her powers – well, fairy magic and human magic are different, still, she could be a guide, so good question. I know, Rumple is a main character, Blue just supporting, so less interesting to use her. But it means, Emma learning magic from Rumple so another man helping her developing her hero skills. Right, then in Neverland and Storybrooke Regina pitches in – finally a woman showing Emma to get better with her skills. There was something great in the moment when Regina and Emma joint forces to beat Pan’s magic, even though they were not that successful with it. Right, in 3B Emma trains more with Regina and as a result is able to force Zelena away from Henry, but think what people remember more is Emma using her magic as trivial tool for flirty banter with Hook, so Regina’s training was worth little.

I can see Snow and Emma relation even as realistic as it is at this stage of the show, awkward, Emma hiding behind her walls, now maybe opening up a tad more, Snow overthinking and having a hard time to accept Emma as adult daughter, struggling with her own urge to nurture a child and not just have a child. Makes all sense even. And still I find it frustrating.

Yes, I am setting the bars high here. But art is for me more than painting the world in beautiful colors, it is an exploration and discussion of our world as it is, as it was, as it could be, as we fear and wish it to be, with every means of expression we have. OUaT could be more than successful, (mostly) enjoyable entertainment, it could even be brilliant.

Savior/Mother/Product of True Love: Emma
This was brought up on the last page, I believe, that S1 introduced Emma as the Savoir/Henry’s mother and these were her defining characteristics. With this, I agree.

Yeah, Emma is: Snow White’s and Prince Charming’s daughter, the child of epic true love (that is the next level up from true love), the tool to break the first Dark Curse because Rumple made it so, the mother of the truest believer aka Henry jr., the princess bride (so to speak) of the lost son (though not lost in the biblical sense), the savior, the future queen, the assumed purveyor of the strongest light magic, the greatest threat … Can Emma be just Emma?

Throwing in as just as side-note for the moment something I think that has never been discussed so far: Emma as a (simplified) female version of King Arthur, or should say, Prince Arthur, because she is not queen yet.

And then people wonder, why Emma got so taken up with the thought of going back to New York, where she was just herself and Henry’s mother and happy? Try to imagine: You had a contemplative life, you made a good living, were not happy but at least okay, you’ve struggled to find your place in this world so turned it into a habit to be unbounded to keep yourself sane, you are used to be overlooked, but staying under the radar can be even comforting and an advantage, and then suddenly, magically, it makes kinda poof and you’re in the center of attention (the poof was Henry showing up on her doorstep, the beginning of the life change for modern world Emma). I bet, unless your some psychopath with huge hubris you will wish sooner or later to get out of the center. Getting attention, fine, feeling like being in the focus of it all time, stress.

The True Love thing…
The show is a reflection and discussion on what true love is, could be , should be, what we wish and fear it to be (right, said something alike about art). The characters or some of the story universe of the show try to explain Emma’s special (?) powers with being a product of true love. Does that mean that the writers think so as well? Not necessarily so. There is a difference of the reality of the universe the story takes place in, in theory known as diegetic reality, and the reality of the writers, reality in the perception of the audience, our daily life reality, in short there are different levels of reality in story telling.

No, it has not been answered in the reality of the show, why Emma has such special powers but not others, if that is all what there is to it, what makes Snowing’s love so more truer than any other love. I am not sure the characters can or even should answer that though. Sometimes we settle with an explanation because it is so beautiful and handy on first thought, and we stuck with first thought then, because thinking more about it might raise questions we can’t answer, and that has a tendency to make us feel uncomfortable and so we avoid it fairly often.

For the writers it is not important where the powers in detail come from, but more where it will take the character, in this case Emma. It has been the same with Elsa in the movie Frozen, she was born with her powers, and for the majority of people, inside the universe as much as outside, in the reality perceived by the audience as well as for the intention of the writers, it didn’t matter to explore the origins more. It was more of interest to see, what became of the powers, where it took Elsa and her family and people around her. It can makes sense to have an explanation in mind, just in case and to stay coherent in the story you tell, but it’s not important to always tell the story of origin.

It could have been an interesting idea to explore, how much special powers might come from other people believing someone is special. Might sound a bit wacko if thinking of magical powers, but it is something some do question when it comes to differences in measured IQ, development of skills, how pupils fare learning language or mathematics. Unfortunately they showed some electronics going sparky when Henry was born (anyone else had to think of Charmed and the birth of Wyatt?), so exploring that idea is pretty much of the table.

People keep asking why Emma and no one else, so they will probably at some point address it, might be though just with some line, unless it is something they can use as well to move the character and the story forward.

Doubt there is any satisfactory answer, but invite everyone to fanwank about it. Simple, though still unsatisfactory explanation: Snow’s and Charming’s true love is epic and had been tested more than any other, so it created something stronger than any other true love so far did or ever did since. Or could use what Rumple likes to claim, it was destiny, fate, that doesn’t need more explanation. Or the characters got it all wrong and the crucial ingredient was not true love but the special waters of Lake Nostos, as some theorized. Or we know that sometimes traits seem to skip a generation or even generations (recessive genes, should have heard that in school), so maybe should take a look at Emma’s ancestry some generations back, it took true love though to wake that dormant magic gene now in Emma.

The lack of explanation in this case doesn’t bother me much. I am with the writers in this, being more interested to explore, where the powers will take Emma

@Grimmsistr you bring up a good point. Being a product of true love is nothing of Emma’s doing, it is something she passively receives, a gift. Now there is nothing wrong with getting a gift, but it is odd, when the writers claim, that evil isn’t born but made, then what about good? And could someone born with special powers coming from true love turn evil? Yes, in OUaT it should be possible, otherwise their premise is not much worth. Remember people did ask if Zelena was a child of true love because of her being born with special, strong magical powers, but no, Zelena was not a child of true love. Not the special powers so far expressed mainly in light magic make Emma the good guy, they are just a tool to be used one or the other way. Otherwise it makes no sense at all, that Regina now was able to create light magic.

If exploring more history, origin of Emma’s character I would more dig into her foster system time, because I think that many people don’t get why the walls of Emma are so high, so persistent. Furthermore: We have explored on the show plenty of times why Regina is the person she is or where Rumple comes from, we learned about the motivations and past of Peter Pan (a bit at least) and more about Zelena and even more about Cora (and so little about Eva). The good guys are good because they are good, but evil is not born – there is an imbalance in that exploration. In my world, evil isn’t born, but neither is being good. So we have somewhat of an idea why Regina became evil with all the traumatic experience, but why does Emma with her traumatic experiences nevertheless has developed a kind of instinct doing the good thing, even though it sometimes is not the smart thing to do? Sure can think of why, but it would help to see it on the show. Doesn’t expect it to the extend as they explored the past EF, after all past EF is the background for a number of characters, but they did nothing to give more to relate better with Emma and her thinking and views and emotions, nor to let us see, why she is by intuition/instinct more one of the good guys.

P.S.: Sorry if I am sometimes very sociological geek Hope you can follow my thoughts. And keeping things short is not my thing (a miracle I can handle Twitter)

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[Myril]

ELSA | The Queen of Arendelle, this late-20s/early-30s beauty long struggled to control her “chilling” powers and even unleashed upon her town an eternal winter during her coronation. Ultimately, she realized that the key to controlling her powers is love — namely, her bond with sister Anna — and now she is aware of the threat she poses if she were to lose control of her magic again (in which instance Vancouver weather could rival Winnipeg’s!)

ANNA | Elsa’s slightly younger sister is a fun-loving, fearless optimist who often gets herself into situations where she is in over her head, yet is able to triumph due to her resourcefulness and can-do spirit. She values her relationship with her sister above all else.

KRISTOFF | This handsome,OnceUponaTime_Frozen_Kristoff hearty, salt-of-the-earth ice cutter spent most of his life alone (unless you count his reindeer). He has a sometimes-gruff demeanor that can hide his deep love for Anna and her sister Elsa. When we first meet Kristoff on Once, he is adjusting to life at the castle — including sleeping indoors for the first time in his life.

http://tvline.com/2014/06/07/once-upon-a-time-season-4-casting-frozen-elsa-anna-kristoff/

Elsa age late-20s/early-30s -, well, said so. Know some people speculated her to be younger, because she came just of age in the movie, but that would have not fitted that well to the cast of OUaT. Besides I was left with the impression just by the short scene they had at the end of the final, that we had a full grown up woman there with some sense of her body. Sorry, kids, old hag talking 😉 No, seriously, it is harder to appear of a different age than some people might think, make-up can do only that much, there is a lot about body language. It was noticeable that Aurora, Sarah Bolger is younger than the others, early twenties. Most of the regular cast are in their early to mid thirties, and Elsa is hardly to be meant to be a teenage princess, she has to stand up to the main characters as far as we can guess. So, probably not the Fanning sisters.

They should keep the importance of the sister relation for the characters, it’s part of the quintessence of the characters.

Great if this Ana(-stasia) thing is now off the table, didn’t make to me any sense anyway.

And if anyone wants more markers for speculations about casting: for Disney park look-alikes of Elsa and Anna specification are 5’3 to 5’7 (160-170 cm) with slender build. Elsa is slightly taller than Anna,. Kristoff is about a head taller than Anna in the movie. Not that this has to be the same in OUaT though. Lana Parrilla, Ginnifer Goodwin and Jennifer Morrison are about the same height, about 5’5, Robert Carlyle 5’7 Colin O’Donough 5’10, Josh Dallas 6’0, just to have something to compare with.

Hm.

for me: I am MAJORLY against the idea of Elsa having been in love with Kristoph. It sorta muddies the waters of Frozen. Elsa’s story (as Obsigirl said elsewhere) is her sister, not being in love with someone. To suddenly make her longing for her sisters man makes me cringe.

Agreed, no love triangle, no sister rivalry. We just had sister rivalry, jealousy. Supportive family is something rather rare in OUaT.

I wouldn’t mind if someone in Storybrooke would catch Elsa’s eye though (preferred queer).

Elsa seemed to have her powers quite well under control after she escaped the urn, she didn’t freeze the whole barn, it looked not the least bit out of control to me. Just saying.

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[Myril]

I guess I look at OUAT slightly differently, and maybe that’s why I have less issue with her portrayal in 3b. personally I was glad it wasn’t Emma who saved the day; it was the woman who essentially got them in this “mess” in the beginnng – Regina.

Regina didn’t get them in the mess, that was Cora and the puppet master of the Dark Curse Rumple, and even Glinda and The Wizard (Walsh) had more of a hand in making Zelena Zelena than Regina had. Zelena did the same stupid thing with Regina that Regina did with Snow, blame her for something that was beyond her control (there are other things Regina can be blamed for but sure not for anything that happened to Zelena before she encountered her this season).

Nevertheless, I was okay with Regina being the one saving the day, town, They promoted 3B as WickedvsEvil, so it amused me when many viewers assumed, following in that the characters, it would be Emma wielding the white magic Glinda was talking about. Now I could see a way the writers could have made that happen while still making Regina the one behind the successful defeating move against Zelena – as Emma’s good mentor, but they shied away from that in the end. I don’t sense conspiracy against SwanQueen here like others do, but have the impression that the writers (subconsciously) might have begun limiting themselves in their writing possibilities to avoid giving even more subtext and avoid feeding more hope for something they have at this point no intention to let happen on screen. I am at a point I would like to cuddle them and assure them, it’s okay, just let it go, fear not. Regina and Emma could develop a great sisterhood, it so doesn’t has to be a romance, and a good sisterhood can come really close to romance in how it looks to other people. Can’t repeat it often enough, I was fine with either versions of Xena and Gabriele relationship, romance or sisterhood, because we had a huge lack of both on screen back then, golly, we still have too little of that. Why do they think shows like Grey’s Anatomy, Rizolli&Ilses, Lost Girl, even think Orphan Black, movies like Brave and Frozen are such a success particular in a certain demography? No, it’s not lesbian/bisexual women alone, far from. And Emma needs a friend, she needs a mentor. Right, Regina tried umpteenth times to kill her family and tried to kill her, so what? If they would give Regina a real “redemption” arc and not the cheap circus clown version they are doing so far, it could be one of the epic stories of OUaT.

They are doing a lot right with Emma, the characer’s psychological profile still is rather realistic and interesting, but they do so much wrong with her journey, her story. It’s not that they do let her change and grow even, I am mostly okay with where Emma is now emotionally, it is how they get her there.

It’s neither about making this Emma’s show, OUaT always has been more of an ensemble show from the pilot on, so there is not one single main character everything revolves around (not even Regina as some by now think). It’s not about who gets more screentime nor who is the hero of the day or of season’s final. Funny enough Emma was the hero of the season’s final even, again.

When the show started it started has stories about empowerment, and mostly about female empowerment, hope, love, belief in one’s self and trusting others as key ingredients. Sorry guys, but the men were supporting characters, exception Rumple. Nothing wrong with being supporting character, and they had even some depth (Mad Hater! Graham, Charming, Grumpy where not cardboard characters), guys are not that used to take a back seat in fantasy realms, but in Once they did at first. There was Emma, Snow, Cinderella, Gretel, Nova, Red, Granny, Belle a bit, even Regina in a twisted way. I don’t care if that was the showrunners intention or more accidentally, it was what made part of the charm of season 1. And it was often not men empowering the women, it was in Storybrooke mostly Emma, and Emma grew with that experience, while in the EF flashbacks Snow had some hand in things or the women manage quite well on their own, not to mention her great, wonderful friendship between Red and Snow.

And then the show turned into a boys action figure adventure toy shop story. Hey, I loved playing with action figures, trains and matchbox cars as kid while I never understood why playing with dolls and Barbie should be any fun , I was a tomboy, I get it. But I am a woman now and one who wants to hear and tell stories of female empowerment – with matchbox cars and action figures who could even look like Barbie if they have to.

By now Emma is more old style doll Barbie though, independent career Barbie maybe, but still a doll and needing her Ken to be complete. And that annoys me.

Single female heroes alone don’t make the change, it’s about women empowering each other as much. Disney Animation and movies seem to get that a bit better recently, better than OUaT. Come on, Ridley Scott and Sarah Connor graced our screens as lone female (Western style) heroes 20 years ago, Princess Leia had her twin brother at least, but it’s time for some more female power.

The problem and what frustrates me about Emma’s character development is, that they developed Emma’s relations with men, Hook, Neal, her father, but barely to not at all her relations with women. Red could have been a great friend, so I don’t understand, why they had no use for her from 2B on. But if not Red then there were Cinderella or in 3 maybe Tinkerbell (IMO not Belle though, as it is, Belle lives in her own soap bubble, another frustrating waste of a female character), even Mulan or Aurora could have been possibilities if they wanted to. There was a little with Regina, but as said above, they (unconsciously) limit that development. And Emma and Snow is a total fail by now, no matter the schmalz in the season 3 final, even Neal had more development with Emma than Snow. And now that Snow has a baby, I don’t see this change in season 4.

I think Emma’s walls have been comimg down steadily so the going to NY thing seemed more of a dEfense mechanism than truth

It was a defense mechanism, but that doesn’t mean she was not serious about it. New York was Emma’s Land of Oz, a colorful candy fantasy world promising to be better than anything she had so far. Storybrooke was dry, greyish dark and painful Kansas in her mind. Then Emma was taken by a time “twister” back into the past of her parents, where she first messed things up – kinda like Dorothy in the movie, making friends and foes with it, Emma then had to walk her yellow brick road, pick up some important lessons on the way and repaire the damage she did, encounters the Wizard, aka Rumple, who makes promises to bring her back, but turns out he is a fraud and can’t do it, but in the end Emma manages it on her own, brings herself and Hook and with them Marian back to the presence. And picked up some new danger on the way, but that is for season 4 to tell.

The final was great to watch, most of it, and loved how Emma was allowed to be more colorful herself, aka express more visible emotions (she does show them otherwise too, but obviously too subtle for some in the audience to notice). One thing though this final didn’t manage to explain to me: why Emma should have felt that much different about Storybrooke being her home, Snowing, her parents actually being her family and not just some blood related fairy tale heroes. Seeing them met is not enough to explain that change to me. The Problem was never IMO that Emma had no loving, caring feelings for them, but that she didn’t trust them, didn’t feel like she could entrust them with her life, rely on them, let go around them. The trip in time gave me no reason, why Emma now should have more trust in the present time. Snow and Charming did nothing. They have now reduced the problem to a problem of how Emma was approaching things, made it her fault alone that she had no sense for what home means. As much as I agree that it is always important, how a person approaches things and it can help to change that, we’re talking relationship here, and that always takes two to tango. I saw nothing happening on the side of Snow, and little on the side of Charming.

A&E have geeky story ideas, they even have an idea where character development should go, but they don’t get these elements together. The plot is not character driven, nor are the characters plot driven, there is little connection between these story telling elements.

@Phee: I agree with much what you said, except some things in the mothers-son, Emma-Regina-Henry triangle, but have to come back to that later.

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[Myril]

Rereading what I wrote 1 1/2 seasons ago reminds me even more how dissatisfying the journey, the quest since has become. They are still doing a lot right with the character IMO, but they have been doing a lot wrong with the journey for Emma.

For starters will think out loud a bit about Emma as daughter.

Many have been expecting Emma’s walls to be crumbled in rather a short time, walls she build up all of her childhood and most of her adult life. I say it again, something like that is not gone over night, not even in a few weeks, a year, it might even be never fully gone. It is a very deep going deep rooted feeling of being alone in the world and that distrusting people is the only possible survival strategy. People with such strong abandonment feelings have a tendency to push people away to avoid being disappointed and let down, strange, because it means one fairly often forces them even to let one down again, thus one is reinforcing feelings one would like to overcome.

One of the very first feelings Emma had was that of being alone, confused, uncomfortable, and no one there to make her feel better, safe, accepted, fed, happy and warm. Her parents are not really to blame for that, they had not much of a choice and Pinocchio was totally overwhelmed with the task given, first responders and some group home can’t ondoe these first hours either nor create much of a better feeling. Emma doesn’t remember it, but the feelings stayed with her. The way we feel comforted or not as toddler has influence on our relationships of any kind for all of our life. We can learn to handle it, deal with it, but it never goes away, it’s creating a kind of basic matrix or emotional vocabulary for our connections to the world around us and other people.

While there were interesting mother-daughter moments with Snow in 2A, after they returned it was like nothing had happened, they seemed to have less connection than ever before. In season 1 Mary Margaret had become a friend (more or less, people like Emma keep even to good friends some distance, if they even have any), they had made a connection in the Enchanted Forest, and then? Nada. In 3A it goes even so far, that she not just regrets to have missed out on seeing Emma growing up, raising her, and wished for a new child to experience that part of motherhood, Snow lacks IMO any understanding of Emma. Okay, one tiny exception, in Lost Girl there was a rare moment of understanding but it was gone like in a second. Snow and Emma could in theory connect even via that share experience of missing out on seeing their child’s first years, though Emma is so lucky to at least now experience Henry turning into a teenager and a set of false memory of raising him, but again, it is like there is nothing. Then there is Bandit Snow, who could share some experience of having to survive while on the run with Emma…

What I’ve seen this season 3 is a Snow, a mother who is so scared of having an adult daughter (right, dearie, it means you’re getting old in a way), that she constantly ignores her or even pushes her away with though a friendly face on the outside, pretending it’s even for her best. In superficial naive manner of true-love-will-always-find-a-way belief Snow doesn’t care much about the complex set of feelings her daughter had for Neal and instead assumed, he was her son’s father, so there had to be something and probably should be something. Right, blood is always thicker than water, what a limiting, exclusive and conservative view on family. This Snow didn’t give Emma any good feelings or reason to feel like having family with her, a home with her. No, in 3B she even snubs Emma for considering that she might be better of just with Henry and far, far away from all the fairy tale nonsense. Snow, who had no choice when Emma was born, failed her now as a mother and friend.

I am okay with Emma being at the end of season 3 at a point in her journey to take more risk in letting people close and closer, but I am not okay, how they brought her to this point. It would have made no difference to me if it hadn’t that much Hook but Neal. I would have loved to see as a counterpoint to the dysfunctional mother-daughter relations of the Mills family (Cora, Regina, Zelena) a somewhat bumpy but nevertheless beginning to work mother and daughter relation between Emma and Snow.

The main character to blame for it not working is IMO Snow, who at least had the experience of having for some of her childhood years a caring mother. Yes, I would expect Snow, who they made a token Gaia, Mother Earth in the pilot, do translate some of her own good family experience to Emma. Well, she did, in season 1 – but somehow that got lost while Snow was cuddling with her Prince Charming wishing and trying for a new baby.

Emma didn’t fail as a daughter, she was there for her family when they needed her regardless her doubts about staying afterwards. Although she decided to give up her powers to safe Hook’s life, but guess she would have done that even for Regina or Archie, that is just how Emma ticks. That Emma can’t be the cuddly toddler anymore for Snow is not Emma’s fault.

Besides that a huge part of it is more of a rant about what they did with the character of Snow, what me irks about how they took Emma a step or more along her journey to a better self, is that the key character now became a man, the possible true love or love interest. It’s such a worn out path. Female heroes often have no mothers at all, they learn fighting and embrace being a hero through mentorship, guidance, teaching or friendship with a man, and often enough even when it’s a fatherly figure there are romantic feelings involved. No, not even Xena is an exception, but at least a man (Ares) had to share the honor with a woman (Gabriele). Wonder Woman learns her skills by her mother and sisters, but still it takes a guy to get her off the island to become a hero in our world. Merida and Frozen with Elsa are more progressive in that, even Maleficent does a somewhat better job. But OUaT has nothing better to do than to turn Emma into just another princess, who is not the classical damsel-in-distress anymore but still can’t find herself and find confidence in herself without some guy holding her hand. What a shame.

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[Myril]

Maybe I better get me at least an umbrella now, just in case, if tomatoes and alike come flying my way 😉

@Jenna_B I’ve seen the topic you started, about bringing some of the probably interesting character aspects discussed into character discussion besides shipping. Not quite what I thought about though.

In my perception this forum is a shipping forum, and I am basing that not on what is going on in the shipper threads but already on what people bring up in episode discussions, spoilers, speculations. It is still one of the more civilized places where mainly shippers hang around, but like probably most of the fandom a lot of shipping is present.

I like the people here in this forum, so I still hang around as well, and there are a couple of interesting discussions even for me once in a while going on. But by now I discuss the show, characters, spoilers, speculations and other things mostly in another place. It is not just the shipping, it plays a part though, besides that I am never only a fan, but as well a social scientist with some interest in cultural studies and media. As fan I sure have my favorite characters – which have pretty much been reduced by now though to Red/Ruby, a character barely on the show anymore, and to a degree Emma, but as a single woman, none of the ships around for her I see as endgame and I don’t think her happiness is in finding her prince( my love for the show as a whole is gone). As more observer reviewer I see not even any favorite character as safe from anything though, not from death, not from unhappy ending. Yes, I am a person who can love a character and nevertheless kill her or him (I suffered with Willow about the loss of Tara, and at the same time found it was good story telling and something that pretty much had to happen)

I think there is more than a shipping rift in the fandom There are some really annoyed by now about, as they perceive it, the abundance of Regina stories and sudden, effortless redemption, there has been longer than probably any shipping war a constant squabble about who is the better mother, Regina or Emma, there are people now disliking, or as they say it, hating Emma as a character, either because she doesn’t give Hook the boot or treated him like a piece of wood, not to mention her high walls, her inconsideration of Henry and disregard of her loving parents, take your pick. And, I risk to mention it, views and opinions on Neal, his character as much as he is story was handled, are all over the place. We have discussions about all kind of isms and in very passionate ways. As a scientist I find it interesting how a trivial fantasy show about family and love mirrors some at the moment quite fundamental discussions concerning gender, gender roles, family, love, human relationships and morality. As a fan though I find it occasionally straining, because at the moment the best thing seems to be not to move at all, with any move one might put one’s foot into it. I like a good argument, not shy of conflict, but prefer it in a productive manner.

Character discussion can’t exclude discussing relationships the character has with other people, and that includes romantic relationship. Yes, we could try to avoid the hottest bricks, but in some cases there is not much left to discuss then. As I hinted, if talking about Emma I would question why there should have to be any happy big romance as endgame at all, why there has to be romance now, why women are so often in media and entertainment shown as predominantly defined by their relationships, while men are defined by their action, and if OUaT is (still) any different in that. I have some rather harsh views and opinions on any guy Emma had a relationship with so far, and about these relationship, and shippers might not like that. As I have some harsh views on the relationship of Emma’s parents to her though as well. Not much different my views about Regina and her character, relations and development.

But we can try it. Let’s see what happens.

Maybe some more non-shippers have the courage to out themselves? There will be a nice picnic in a week with devilish lasagne, outlandish New York style pizza, spicy apple cider, and later some steaming apple turnover and hot chocolate with cinnamon for dessert. Trying to hire for dinner music the colorful Fairy Choir featuring the singing half-brother of Robin Hood, known as Galavant, and the wolfpack promised a special serenade with surprise guest after moonrise.

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[Myril]

No, you’re not the only one being not a shipper.

But maybe we have to talk a bit about defining shipper? And I might say some things some people are not going to like. To quote Wikipedia:

“Shipping … is the belief of (or desire for) two people, often fictional, to be in a romantic relationship. It is considered a general term for fans’ emotional involvement with the ongoing development of romance in a work of fiction. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_%28fandom%29

Or in other words, shipping means to want two people to be together or belief they will be together at any point of their fictional lives (keeping it to fiction here). I would add: It involves frequently the belief, that there is only one true love, one true pairing possible, that any other relationships one or the other in that pairing has are wrong, meaning at best only transitional or shouldn’t be at all, it is often exclusive. Shipping usually has the tendency to wish for a particular romantic relationship to be the endgame. The romantic relationship becomes the defining moment for the (story of the) two people envolved, whatever else is happening becomes minor matter or is even only perceived as something there to support the development towards the ship or/and a happy ending, and practically blanks out other aspects of story telling and character development. In the extrem version anything questioning the possibility of the wished for pairing (including non-canon ships) or on the show happening pairing (canon ships, sailed ships) is declared to destroy the show, claimed to significantly reduce the quality of writing on the show and means ignoring what THE audience wishes for, assuming that ratings will have to majorly suffer because of it.

Risking a bit of a stir here. Dear shippers, semi and fulltime, you are nice and great people – when you’re not talking about your ships, which though is a rather tough and nearly impossible task for you. Even more of a challenge on this show, as it is so much about love. It’s okay, you are emotionally involved in your ships, emotions are easy to stir and by definition irrational. But for some people, things are different, and we have not an easy time understanding each other.

The past couple of days I thought about starting a general show discussion topic with strict non-shipper policy, becauce I keep my opinion out of the shipper threads, though I do read in them occasionally, as much as I can bear to do so at the moment, but feel a growing urge to be able to talk a bit even against some ships without any shippers throwing in their opinions as well. I don’t expect shippers to explicitly stay out of any other topics besides their shipper ones, though I am thankful when they tune down things a bit for example in character discussion or episode threads. But occasionally I get the urge to have one topic to go to, where I could feel free to question any ship without worrying I might cause personal mayhem (and that goes for Swanfire, CaptainSwan, SwanQueen, Outlawqueen, Rumbelle alike – to name the most active and prevalent ships in the fandom). I am coming close to turn from non-shipper to anti-shipper in some degree at the moment, and yes, there is a difference.

Right, I am discussing at the moment in one topic possibilities for a queer representation and that means showing a queer relationship on the show and not just hinting at the possibility (Mulan is out as queer, lesbian or bisexual woman, pointing out for a reason that Mulan could as well be even a transgender person, but her love to Aurora is unanswered and even still unnamed, only strongly hinted at, but not right away outspoken), so one could say I am shipping queer ship, whichever couple it will be, but usually ship means championing two particular people in relationship, which I don’t do.

I like this community, this forum, but it is one with strong shipping, no offense, an observation. Not the only forum where I am discussing OUaT though, and that is what has been practically keeping me from venting out loud here so far, it is a tad less shippy on another forum. There is not just a rift between shippers in the fandom, there are people being put off the fandom (not necessarily the show) because of all the shipping and shipping wars going on.

It’s not easy to find a place without it, or one with at least a niche for non-shippers, or where one can find in the big loud concert of shipping voice those non-shipping voices. Though TWoP sadly closed it’s forum doors a few days ago, looks like there still is another place to go to, so refraining for the time being from a strict-non-shipper thread here. But it means I will still hold back with some stuff on here.

@sauronbaggins. (Late) Welcome to this community! By the way, thanks for the apple turnovers, delicious! Nice try, but I’m immune against sleeping curses and potions 😛

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[Myril]

I’ve seen a lot on how Regina and Emma’s relationship will possibly change next season since Marian is back, but I haven’t seen anything about how Marian being back will affect Regina’s friendship with Snow, and also, the big secret that Rumple killed Zelena will affect Regina’s friendship with Rumple?

Interesting that you use the term “friendship”, because that’s not what I would use describing or naming the relationships of Regina to Snow or Rumple. Actually would say Regina has no friends, not even Tinkerbell fits that, though the relationship between them could become friendship. And maybe Maleficent came close to being a sort of friend, but she is not in this picture at the moment.

Snow and Regina are family. As it is with family, sometimes they get along better, sometimes they don’t get along at all, and somehow they feel nevertheless entitled to deal with each other. We have family, we don’t choose them 😉 Having now been on the other side of jealousy, Regina might have a bit of an insight, how ridiculous and toxic some of her attitudes towards Snow had been, but some things are hard to get over.

Considering the past season, I would say, Snow will be rather busy idolizing and pampering her baby, while as usual not getting Regina (that Snow seems to have given her like umpteenth second chances doesn’t mean she ever had any understanding of Regina) and probably hardly getting anything going on for people outside her little baby bubble. Being the obstinate believer in true-love-solves-everything Snow is, she probably will tell Regina without even being asked, that things will sort out, she just has to have hope and trust.

Somehow can’t help it and even picture Snow kinda teaming up with Regina against her own daughter, snubbing Emma for having been so stupid to mess up things. But that is because by now the writers have pretty much ruined the character of Snow, the bandit, open minded, smart strong, complex woman from season 01.

Regina and Rumple aren’t friends either, Rumple was her dark magic teacher and he exploited her. That doesn’t excuse anything Regina did, but those two had and have a rather toxic relationship. They might tolerate each other in a way, for the sake now of Henry, but I don’t see any friendly feelings between them. At best Rumple will stay away from Regina and mind just his own business, whatever he is up to, but worst case scenario for me is, that he might be up to something and again use Regina’s nonreflective anger and reemerging fears for his own purposes. Meanwhile Regina hardly will care what Rumple is doing, and won’t go and ask him for any advice or help, unless she’s in need of a special spell or ingredients for some spell.

Now if Regina learns that Rumple killed Zelena, that could be interesting. It is one thing to want to kill your own family, but most people would still not let anyone else do it. But it might be not just about family feelings. Can argue, if Rumple hadn’t killed Zelena, the time portal probably wouldn’t have been activated, Emma wouldn’t have gone through and brought Marian back with her, Robin would hardly learn that Regina was about to execute Marian, which might put some strain on whatever feelings there are. Right, it seems more likely that events kinda repeat itself, so Regina blaming Emma like she blamed Snow once, but who knows. Talking of considering consequences. Rumple with all his knowledge about magic, his hundred of years of experience, with the ability to see glimpses of the future (does he still have that ability?) goes and kills out of pure revenge and without any regards for anyone else.

Which makes me think about, that it could be interesting if Regina after a first reserved or hostile reaction would team up with Elsa against Rumple. Seriously, Regina should finally get, that if anyone else is to blame for ruining her life but her than she should take a very hard look at Rumple. Could create some interesting conflict for everybody, seeing that Rumple is the granddad of Henry at the same time, the only one left as connection to Henry’s father side, that I am rather sure Snowing would on first (wrong) intuition take more likely Rumple’s side, and be it just for Belle’s sake, while Emma could probably feel somewhat guilty for how things turned out regarding Neal as well as for bringing Marian back, though she sure will feel it was right to safe a live.

It was Marian’s destiny to die, which means Emma screwed up Fate! And screwing up Fate will have major consequences on both her and Marian’s behalf. Whether or not it was a bad thing to happen, it was still her fate to die, and in order to right the universe….Marian will have to die

Was it destiny? Who says so? Because she died as far as we know in the “original” timeline? But as well can say, it was destiny for Emma to go back in time, to mess up her own parents meeting, to get a different idea what family and home means, and it was actually Marian’s fate to live, and fate corrected itself by letting Emma save her to create the “right” timeline. That is the thing with time travel and even more when destiny and fate comes into play, who can tell which of the timelines is the one doing it right according to whatever power allegedly set the destiny for a person?

Furthermore I am very much with @timespacer regarding destiny and fate. I dislike that concept, in real life as much as in fiction. In fiction it kills character development and story IMO. It’s a convenient way to avoid to endure that there is maybe not an answer to everything, that some things just don’t make sense but nevertheless are and happen, that life is not all predictable but still we are in charge of what we make of it, that there are conflicting interests sometimes even inside of one person but definitely between people, conflicts we can’t magically make disappear. Claiming destiny is the easy way out, it is what Rumple is doing all the time deflecting his own responsibilities.

It would be too easy to let it be destiny for Marian to die. Don’t worry Regina, things will turn out more or less fine, destiny meant for Marian to be out of your way anyway, just sit back and let it happen. Actually she should be grateful to Emma, because that way the conflict is resolved that Regina was the one who (now have to say) tried to execute, murder Marian, while Robin was meant to be her true love. All is good, it was just destiny forcing her hand, and thankfully Emma messed fate up, so Robin can forgive Regina, and destiny will now find a better, less morally disturbing way to get rid of Marian for them. There was intend but no execution. Where is the character grow in that? I have a growing problem with the one true love trope concerning OutlawQueen and even more if the writers would do some destiny trope, the universe rights itself plot with Marian. Good old fairy tale simplicity maybe, but it would leave a very, very bad taste for me concerning this allegedly meant to be true love.

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[Myril]

Not a great quality but it’s a first trailer for the show. Buffy turned undead meets Veronica Mars 😉

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[Myril]

PriceofMagic wrote:
Red and Ruby’s name is interchangeable so it doesn’t rule out Red in Storybrooke. It’s like people referring to Rumple as Gold.

Not really on the show they use the SB names in FTL, they use the FTL hence MM is still used in SB no one uses the name Snow. Besides she would have stated both names insteald of just Red.

It’s one thing how it is used on the show, and I am not even sure if they use it all consequently, not always paying attention to it, but guess they mostly do.

But fans and media use the names very sure often interchangeably.

And in interview situations I would be cautious to weigh one’s words, not even those of professionally trained, well experienced PR people, even less when it’s a rather unprepared interview.

RumplesGirl already wrote, at this point the next season is not set in detail. I don’t worry if they bring her back as Red in flashbacks or a Red/Ruby in present time or both, I just wish for them writing a good story/plot for Red/Ruby, be it as guest star in one episode or as recurring character.

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