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The biological father of Zelena practically a nobody? In this fairy tale soap opera? I don’t buy that. Not ruling out anyone yet.
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Tuning in for a spell…
You all have heard of writers’ room? It’s a common way U.S. shows are worked on, it’s a more or occasionally less collaborative way to write, team work, even though the scripts of an episode are written by specific writers, the story ideas, even eventually down to acts, scenes, moments are discussed and drafted with the team, planned ahead. Every show develops its own work style and structure in the writers room, some more some less team oriented, but much of the story and plots are developed there. Nevertheless each writer adds their own style and skills to the script, its a question of how the story and plots are put into in detail. Like it is always quite noticeable when Jane Espenson wrote a script simply because she’s not only comfortable but good with dialogue.
Battlestar Galactica writing team published while the show was airing a few podcasts of meetings, which was really interesting to listen to, not just as BSG fan (what I am) but as well as someone being interested in production of TV shows and films.
I don’t know exactly how they work in the writers’ room of Once, but it’s a safe guess that it might be influenced somewhat by the experience of A&E on Lost.
I am throwing this in, because when you look at the stories and plots of an episode you should consider that they’re often not the original idea of the writer of that episode but drafted in the writers room together. Of course though there are different ways and styles to put that into the words of a script. So a suggestion, and something not easily done, I know, but if you look at the episodes, try to put somewhat aside what part of the story, what plot you like or dislike, and look at how the story and plot are put into action and dialogue, when you want to talk about specific writers that is. So an episode can be weak in the story and plot and still be quite strong in the specific writer’s writing.
Not sure if everyone is aware of writers’ room, so thought, better bring it up.
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Sorry @TheGoldenKey maybe I’ve misread or misunderstood something in your opening post, but you wrote
Back in S1x19 The Return, Blue clearly tells Baelfire that what ails his father isn’t from this world (meaning Dark Curse isn’t from the EF).
Now I quoted, what the Blue Fairy said in that episode and she said definitely: It IS specific to the Enchanted Forest, to “our realm” to quote her again, and she and Bae were in the EF at that moment, or in less poetic words: The Dark One’s power IS from the Enchanted Forest. The vault is in the Enchanted Forest. Of course you can assume, the Blue Fairy is not from the Enchanted Forest and she was talking about “our” aka the Fairies’ realm, but I don’t assume that. So were is the Blue Fairy’s statement in contradiction of what we saw past episode?
She says furthermore, that “his powers don’t belong” in their realm. You read that differently, as the power doesn’t come from the Enchanted Forest, okay. As I read what the Blue Fairy said, the powers of the Dark One not only can come but do come from the Enchanted Forest (and can work in any land with magic). But the only way to get rid off them is by leaving and live in a land without magic (or to get killed and thus transfering the power to someone else, but the Blue Fairy doesn’t talk about that option).
My opinion: The Blue Fairy DIDN’T lie, NOR did the writers mess up at this point.
To me “not come from” or “is not from” and “not belong to” is not the same wording and has a very different meaning, and the latter is what is written in the script.
Can we agree on having a different point of view here?
edit to clarify
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I am sorry that people have crossed personal lines, I didn’t know there were on here. Address those people, tell them to leave it or to leave the forums. But I am not letting myself been thrown in the same box with them. I have different views about the death of Neal, I am going to voice them with all due respect, I did here. I would like to discuss my views and impressions about recent (and upcoming episodes) still openly here as well, but I don’t feel like I can do that anymore. I am not that invested in characters, and talking about it more looking at story telling and psychology of characters maybe, and there is a chance that I might hurt feelings just because I have a different relation to the show. I see, at the moment there are too many hurt feelings already, too much anger, too much feelings in general, so I will leave it for the time being, for good.
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But here’s the rub: right now, we don’t want a debate or discussion. Death isn’t logical and our response right now is not to try and hash it out with logic and reasons and meta essays. Right now, we want to mourn and be angry and find consolation and solace in people who have the same opinions. That’s why we haven’t really left the SF thread. We want our little bubble as our safe place right now. And people keep coming at us trying to say, “no you should see it this way” or “have you considered this” or “too much anger….” and right now, we’re simply not feeling it.
With all due respect, and I respect that there are people who feel hurt and sad, who mourn and are angry, but there are as well people who feel differently about the show and what has happened in the recent episode. Reactions in the fandom and audience to the death of Neal are all over the map, and it is sure not an easy time for discussions in the stormy wake of events. At the moment I really try to hold back out of respect, but trust me, that is not that easy, I have more than a basket full of replies I haven’t posted due to respecting feelings for the time being. There are some things said in the wake of events about characters and development and events which I sometimes strongly disagree with, but for the sake of peace I let some things go for the moment.
But as much as those mourning need a place to do so, others need a place to talk and discuss things from their point of views as well. And some of what is said by them will be not liked by those how mourn, but what they are posting is just how they feel.
Let’s just say, those who mourn have their threads and places to let it all out. And those who don’t have their threads to talk and discuss. I don’t want to avoid coming to these forums for the rest of the season because of that, by I am wondering if perhaps better I should, because, no, the mourn and anger is not just in the shipping threads (which I already avoid most of the time anyway, but had an inkling at the moment definitely should stay away from there). It’s okay, I can take that it is all over the place, that there is an overall feeling of gloom hanging in the background and sometimes showing full force, as long as it is still accepted to voice a different view at least in some threads as carefully as I think all of us with a different view on here did so far (I know in other places the opinions and views are not so regardfull). If it is not accepted or at least tolerated anymore, then I am out of it for a while, I say it that bluntly now. Just let me know, no hard feelings, just trying to avoid to cause lasting schism.
That said. I agree mostly with what has been sad by some in this thread. @sherazade, @MatthewPaul and @Grimmsistr said most of what I am thinking. The show is still telling stories of hope and will tell stories of hope, but as well there were, are and will be stories questioning to have hope. Keeping hope up sometimes is something coming not easy.
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Back in S1x19 The Return, Blue clearly tells Baelfire that what ails his father isn’t from this world (meaning Dark Curse isn’t from the EF).
Hate to destroy all your wonderful conspiracy and it’s Plot!Plot!Plot! assumptions (okay, I don’t, specifically if it comes to the Blue Fairy), but have to tell you, you remember it wrong. Sorry.
That is what the Blue Fairy is telling Bae in 1×19 The Return:
You see, what ails your father is specific to our realm. His powers do not belong here. You must go where you can escape this wretched curse.
Quoted from transcript, and re-watched the episode.
Blue Fairy doesn’t say exactly, where the power is from, but that what troubles Rumple is “specific” to their realm, aka the Enchanted Forest or magical lands. Yes, she says as well, the power doesn’t belong there, and one can read that differently, but it doesn’t have to mean, the power doesn’t originate in the EF, just that it shouldn’t be there.
Basically Blue Fairy was telling Bae in this scene, she can’t do anything about the Dark One in the Enchanted Forest, the magic was beyond her control or beyond her to undo, take away, but that there was hope in the form of going to a non-magical place.
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Couldn’t agree more.
But I get the pain some people feel, somewhat. Out of respect I tried hard to hold back on views and commentaries for past two days (not that easy sometimes). Expected though the anger going around, haven’t seen any death threats to the writers and showmakers yet, but wouldn’t surprise me either. Some people are just getting a lot more invested in characters than others and a few maybe overly.
Story telling is pretty much about drama, there is a reason why is called happy ending. I expect good story telling to take me to places, I don’t always feel comfortable to to or don’t want to go to at all. Explore my own issues as much as how other people feel and think to broaden my horizon and understanding. To confront me with things, feelings that can hit me in real life as well, and when they do it might help to have gone with someone else, even if it’s a fictional character through these emotions, help to handle and survive them. Of course I want as well pleasant entertainment and happy moments, but for me story telling is good if it doesn’t make it easy for me. Everything else is mind-relaxing entertainment to consume and forget about.
I don’t think that all development and writing for the character Neal was good, and there sure is more story about him to tell, but to me a while ago, before the rumors started it made story telling sense to kill him. I haven’t decided yet, if I find it just okay or good, how they now killed Neal, but I am okay that they took the story there.
See, I am one of the few who really likes the Blue Fairy, and more so like to see Keegan Connor Tracy to have work and great roles to play, but I was okay with killing the Blue Fairy. I was not okay with her coming back. It destroyed what story telling sense the death had, and more important, it tainted the possibility and impact of other deaths maybe to come. And look at what is happening. People do cry foul, that the Blue Fairy came back, that her coming back already broke the rule of dead being dead, and of course so people now rightfully ask, why not bring Neal back. There are story telling reasons not to, to make this a death to stick, but it could have been easier for more to accept, if they had not brought the Blue Fairy back. It was a mistake. I am sure, Neal’s death would have a different impact now if they hadn’t butchered that story line before.
I can imagine other versions. Keeping Rumple dead, but very sure plenty of Rumbelle and Rumple fans than as well would of suffered. Keep Rumple dead, let Neal’s attempt to resurrect him or get to the power of the Dark One going wrong in the way, that Neal would have turned into the Dark One, which though I guess would have set up some fans because of making him dark and a villain.
As I see it, keeping Neal around as just Rumple’s son, Henry’s father and former and maybe future love interest for Emma wouldn’t have done him good long (it already didn’t), he would have needed a story to make him stand as character on his own, to be not just a major character (one with high impact on the story) but become a main character, one to carry a good chunk of the show with his own story. Yes, I make a difference between major character and main character. For example Hook as well in my eyes might be a major but is still far from being a main character, even though we got a bit of background. That is not to confuse with just supporting characters like Sneezy, Doctor, Granny or even the Blue Fairy, who are there because a plot needs some friends or foes or whatever extra speaking characters, but have not a central role, no major impact on the overall story of a show.
At the same time I felt the character development of the main characters (to me Emma, Regina, Rumple, maybe Snow and Charming as team, no, not Henry, he’s just major) was a bit in a stalemate by now, and it seems the writers might have felt something alike. Bringing in the next big bad and the next action doesn’t keep a show interesting for long, it’s character development that does (and I think that is even true for action super hero serials, and OUaT is not even that kind of show, just has elements of it).
No, Neal didn’t deserve to die, sure not, like most others he deserved a happy ending (but what defines a happy ending?). I don’t even think, it was a hero death or making that much sense (the Wicked Witch controls the Dark One now, not that smart, is it), it was tragic, kinda senseless, but Neal let go with a sense of doing the right thing from his POV. Death never is great, and there is no thing like a heroic “good” death IMO, just someone making an often dumb sacrifice, which with some luck though turns things better for the people left behind.
But Neal’s death is perhaps the one with the biggest impact on most of the main and some other characters on the show. It will impact Rumple and Emma, Henry and through them others. It makes sense for story telling.
Doesn’t mean I am throwing now a party (I know that on other sites opinions, views of some sound like they would), Neal’s death is meant as tragic momentum, and it makes people sad. I respect that. But if it comes to the show and the work of the writers I have a different view.
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What about people who don’t identify as one or the other? As both or non-binaries or not decided yet for example?
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I was getting a feeling of a stalemate in the first half of this season, that the characters not just were running in circles in Neverland but as well considering character development. In my opinion it was due for a major shake-up of the characters – and that means for bigger tragedy, the loss of a major character. To me killing Neal made sense even before the rumors and spoilers began. He was besides Henry the one whose death would affect most other characters directly or indirectly (lover, father, son, friend). It’s not just about where a story is coming from, if the characters “earned” what is happening, but as well it is about where the story is going, what is going to challenge them. There is still plenty I think this show, the writers are doing not so good, but the death of Neal is something I indeed think might be able to do some good to the show.
Sorry to all Neal fans and Swanfire shippers. I get the pain, remember when Joss Whedon killed Tara, and how upset I was about the death of Tasha Yar in Star Trek The Next Generation (although how she died I still praise as courageous; death makes no sense and is not much heroic at times even for a hero). Good story telling takes us to places we sometimes don’t want to go to.
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Instantly had that thought of The Wizard of Oz, aka former con man and magician Oscar Zoroaster Phadrig Isaac Norman Henkle Emmannuel Ambroise Diggs.
Now when hearing Lumiere as name just can’t help it and always think of the Lumiere Brothers, who were among the first filmmakers. Another pioneer of film was Georges Méliès (if you watched the 2011 movie Hugo you might have heard about him). Méliès was called by Charles Chaplin “alchemist of light”, by others a cinemagician. Before Méliès turned to filming he had been a professional stage illusionist / magician. Yeah, odd what train of thoughts sometimes happens when watching a trivial TV show like OUaT 😉
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