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I always disliked, that the rivalry and jealousy in Snow White was so much reduced to beauty and vanity, into obssession with looks. It never made that much sense to me. But right, it’s the traditional tale. Or maybe not.
Can question, what kind of beauty is or was meant. Might never have been all about beauty on the outside, good looks, what pleases the eyes, but as much about beauty on the inside, what pleases mind and soul. We often presume that one mirrors the other, we do nowadays and guess they did some 200 years ago. The good is beautiful, the evil is ugly, and beauty is good while what is ugly is bad. The word fair or fairest as it is used in the English translation of the Grimm’s version can mean more than just being pretty on the outside. Even the German word “schön” can mean more, it’s used in different ways, although if asked most would tell you it means merely beautiful or pretty (and because Germans use the word fair as well, but in the sense of just, deserved, suitable, right, lawful, a few Germans might be confused somewhat in the right way by the English translation).
And looking at the term vanity: It doesn’t only mean excessive and false pride but as well futility, something which is in vain, and was more used even in that sense ages ago. In German the word is “eitel” and the noun “Eitelkeit” – but we all learn in German schools (not all remember) in literature about a poem from 17th century with the title “Alles ist eitel” (The Vanity of the World scroll down for the English translation) by Andreas Gryphius, a morbid poem but not totally without hope (last line makes in a way a suggestion what to do about vanity, to turn attention to what is immortal without saying what is). It’s telling that whatever we build, create, do, even nature surrounding us and stone will be gone in time. The poet grew up during Thirty Years’ War, one of the most devastating wars of European history, no wonder his works are so morbid.
Sorry for this little excursion into German literature. Back to Snow White.
On first sight Once Upon a Time might deviate a lot from the tradional story, but on second look I think it doesn’t.
As I see it Regina was never just reacting to Snow’s childish betrayal, that was the start, the trigger, but Regina also then has been jealous of Snow’s happiness and what you can call her inner beauty. Things seem to come easy to Snow (they didn’t, but that is how I think Regina perceives her). Yes, she lost her mother, but her father did everything for Snow, remarrying not for his own sake but her sake. The huntsman Regina sent to kill Snow fell for her innocence and fairness and let her escape. Snow found good friends while on the run, she stumbled upon her true love. People love Snow because they perceive her as friendly, generous, considerate, just, open minded, and never anyone seems to question it, or only a few. Every day with Snow alive was a reminder for Regina, that she lost the beauty of true love, while Snow had it (her father) and later found it again (Charming, as well as Red, Granny and the dwarfs as her loyal friends). At first Regina wanted to get rid off Snow, but her vengeance turned more and more into a quest to punish Snow by destroying her happiness, and not just because Regina failed first to kill her. Regina was too proud to let go and jealous that Snow got, what Regina felt Snow didn’t deserve but she, Regina, should have.
So in my opinion Once Upon a time adds plenty of layers to the story of Snow White, but the motif of beauty and false pride is still somewhat there.
And what Regina does is rather futile, vain, because in the end good always wins, at least in fairy tales. So much for vanity in the antique meaning of the word.
I’m glad they didn’t turn Snow into a spoiled princess believing only beauty matters and ousting Regina as queen just because she was the cute princess. That would have turned the story of the traditional fairy tale upside down (interesting as a darker version, maybe, but nothing I would expect as good story telling from main stream TV). In the traditonal tale, Snow takes care of the household of the dwarfs without any known complaints, she does it with all her heart. That’s the way of the fairy tale to tell, that Snow White is a friendly and good person, not just a good looking one.
In the episode “The Stable Boy” though I had the impression, that Snow was a bit of a spoiled brat at that time, that she was not always considerate but indeed somewhat vain and ignorant as kid (I could very well picture, how she would have gone on my nerves as kid). And from what the writers said in interviews recently my impression might be not wrong, and we might see more of a less nice side of Snow. Ironically probably Regina helped to turn Snow into a better person.
And isn’t the story of Regina and Snow a lot about looking at things from the inside and not just see things on the outside? A tale to look beyond apparent beauty and apparant ugliness? First impressions might be wrong, Snow is not all about beauty and goodness, the Evil Queen, Regina is not simply an evil person, the characters are more complex as are the stories. To me that means among other things questioning the understanding of beauty and vanity we have today. (However this is a TV show, entertainment, so everybody looks good no matter what, so questioning our present concepts of beauty are only goes so far)
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So, after he was half way turning Star Trek into Star Wars, Abrams will get a chance to turn Star Wars a bit into Star Trek 😆
Just kidding. He is a great director for that kind of action stuff and still manages to put some good drama into it. Something to look forward too, indeed.¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
@jessista wrote:
Yeah I thought WWI also by the look of the brother’s uniform. I may be mistaken, but didn’t “Frankenstein” take place in Austria?
Nope, in Switzerland and Germany, Scotland and near to the North Pole.
@TheGoldenKey wrote:
What they are going for is the old 1930’s and 1940’s gothic horror look. Black and white film, turn of the century costumes as well as German Officer coats (we saw this in the The Doctor with Dr. Frankenstein’s coat). Most stories like Frankenstein or Dracula took place in countries like Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Yugoslavia, Romania, etc. The Wolfman took place in turn of the century Whales.
Personally, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the exact country. Like I said, it’s all about showing us that it’s the story book world of classic horror monsters. It’s another time period, in the real world, otherwise Rumple would never have been able to access it. It’s a fantasy world of gothic horror novels and movies.
Agreed, it’s not so important exactly which country. It’s a world mimicking a fictional genre and how it was envisioned at some point.
Nevertheless find it interesting that they deviate from classic Frankenstein here and put the Frankensteins in a fictional Austria. Not important but interesting. Can’t help it. :geek:
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Tried to give you a better translation of the German text of the commission than Google, no offense Clessidor 😉
To Doctor Victor Frankenstein
Dear Doctor Frankenstein,
By virtue of the power and authority, which has been given to me by the Chancellor and the Emperor’s commission, I appoint you to ARMY PHYSICIAN.
You are therefor assigned to thoroughly and faithfully discharge the duty of army physician and to serve as an example for lower-ranking officers and soldiers.
We request you to execute aforesaid orders, to maintain order and discipline and to execute future orders.In Armen Metz (?) written by me and sealed on the third of March.
By the virtue of power given to me by order of the Emperor
T. Herman
Captain T. Herman – 34 division
Klagenfurt, Carinthia
Klagenfurt – Land, District on behalf of the Prime Minister of Imperial AustriaGuess “Armen Metz” is a place, although haven’t found it so far.
And finally advanced course in history pays off. 😆¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
More like around turn of century, late 19th century, maybe first decade of 20th century, WWI, time of Prussian and Habsburg empires. The 30s and 40s of past century would have a different look.
Was hoping somehow for a touch of Steampunk, although Frankenstein is more gothic stuff, but maybe if we ever get Captain Nemo on the show they will go there. The elevator in the libary looks like something Captain Nemo could have build.Mendel by the way was mid-19th century. And while selective breeding is as old maybe as human society, genetic engineering began in the 1970th. It took some understanding of DNA and RNA to get there. Whatever monsters you see earlier in fiction they’re more products of cross-breeding, magic, unexplained natural phenomenon or not specified scientific tempering with nature.
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@Clessidor wrote:
2. The letter came from Klagenfurth in Carinthia, a real place in our world.
So now, I think, we now that real place from the normal world (The land without magic) can also exist in some kind of parallel-universe-way in this/other lands. Places like London, Paris, Kansas, Hamelin, Siebenbürgen/Transylvania, etc. which doesn’t mean that these places are exactly the same like ours. (I pretty sure that Austria never had a “Bundeskanzler”, “Ministerpräsident” and “Kaiser” at the same time^^)Well, actually there was a time. During the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy 1867-1918. Each, Austria and Hungary at that time had a parliament and a prime minister (Ministerpräsident), ruled by Habsburg monarch as Emperor of Austria (Kaiser von Österreich) and as King of Hungary.
Near the town Völkermarkt, not far from Klagenfurt in Carinthia there is even a castle which is known as Ramschüsselhof or Frankenstein. (here information about it in German)
The original story of Frankenstein by Mary Shelley though doesn’t take place in Austria. Frankenstein’s home is Geneva, Switzerland, he studies and creates the monster in Ingolstadt, Germany, later they travel to Scotland and end up near the North Pole. There is some disputable claim, that Shelley’s story is based on some alleged legend about a castle Frankenstein in Germany.
Anyway. I agree, Frankenstein’s world is not our world, even if names of places and some of the history are the same.
Side note: When reading the novel one can very well wonder, who the actual monster is, Frankenstein or his creation. In the movie made by James Whale though the monster is definitely the one with the neck bolts. 😉
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@Swanning-Off wrote:
I don’t think Emma’s lie detecting ability is actually a super power. I always thought that was just a joke to get Henry onside.
Emma used the term “superpower” when she talked to Henry and when she talked to Hansel and Gretel. It’s the kind of stuff you say to kids. And I imagine the writers had some big fun with people taking it as actual superpower of Emma. Well, I would, I do.
Given her past life, pre storybrooke, I think she would need to “read” people well. In certain lines of work, you get pretty good at reading people, picking up on non-verbal cues that give them away. In my job (criminal law), we call it our radar or antenna. I can’t tell if my client is lying to me, but I can get a reliable sense of when I need to ask more questions or something is off. I think that’s all Emma’s “superpower” is – not a magical ability to tell if someone is lying but just a skill from her past to read someone and tell when something is off.
Agreed!
Can sometimes go ballistic when reading just another crappy wannabe psychological article claiming that there is any reliable way to tell if someone is lying. Things like body language, facial expressions (like the famous microexpressions Paul Ekman done some research about, which inspired the show Lie To Me), voice modulation, rhythm, tone, speaking style, phrasing give clues, that something is off, but don’t tell why. Basically such clues can tell, that what the person is telling, what feelings the person wants to show and the feelings the person have are not the same – and there are a number of reasons why not, lying is just one possible reason why there is a difference. Or they tell you, that someone is in stress – but again, that doesn’t tell you why. One can be trained to be better in reading such clues, some learn it by mere experience.And in that case…. *(please avoid obscenities)*. She should have read through Greg. His non verbals were screaming “I saw magic but I’m not telling you in case you chuck me in the psych ward”
She should have. On the other hand Emma probably had a lot on her mind, she looked rather stressed to me at the hospital. There was Hook to deal with, Rumple certainly ready to kill Hook, Cora somewhere in the town, Regina lost and then this stranger. Some things to think about. And I think the question, if the stranger had seen magic was not high on Emma’s priority list for the moment, so she was quick to let it go and more or less believed Greg.
Her interrogations techniques were poor. But Jane Espenson said something interesting about Emma’s lie detection skills in the interview on Let’s Talk TV (see Jane Espensen Blog Talk Radio Interview on OUAT ), nothing official, she was practically speculating as we do, but it made some sense: Facing real magic could shake one’s ability to know when someone is lying. I think that might be not only true for her lie-detection skills. Emma is rattled, she learned just a short time ago, that she is in fact the daughter of two famous fairy tale heroes, that fairy tale stories and other stories are real stories (although the versions we know not all true to the stories), she was chased by ogres and zombies, she learnt that magic exists and that she herself has magical powers. Not too long ago she was an outsider herself. So how do you pump someone for information trying to assess, if he saw something or not, if he suspects something, without betraying anything, when you yourself still are struggling to fully grasp it? Not an easy task.
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@Gaultheria wrote:
@myril wrote:
Regina, all torn about her mother. Yes, she is inconsistent, and weak and vulnerable when it comes to Cora, and even when she manages to stand up for a moment it doesn’t take long for her to cave in.
We might find out that Regina already knew about Cora and was prepared to play the expected role. Regina can see through any mirror in town, and Cora and Hook weren’t as careful about concealing themselves as they should have been. Hook’s hook might even be shiny enough to connect to the network. Also, real Henry was determined to find Regina after real Archie showed up
See a case of codependency here, as I said. Cora knows very well how to push Regina’s buttons, and she did. I don’t think that Regina knew Cora was around. She might have wondered if, but to me Regina looked genuily surprised and scared, than angry. She might not fully trust her mother, but a part of her wants to believe her. Right, in the Enchanted Forest Regina was able to see through mirrors and used them to do some magic, but think we haven’t seen that in Storybrooke so far. Magic works differently in our world, so I’m not so sure the she can use mirrors like in the Enchanted Forest.
@Gaultheria wrote:
@myril wrote:
Emma has some medical knowledge. Very normal for a former bail bond person and now sheriff. Just kidding.
It actually would be normal, though, wouldn’t it? As sheriff, she’s a first responder.
A sheriff probably should, and should have some training in other things as well, trainings Emma maybe doesnt have, but that was not my mind. I just found these moments funny considering that Jennifer Morrison became known to many as Dr. Cameron in the medical drama series House. Sorry when my humor sometimes isn’t so apparant.
@jessista wrote:
Myril–I don’t know that Rumple risked his powers by kissing Belle–I remember that they kissed at the well in “Broken” and nothing of the sort happened.
Forgot about that kiss. Hmmm. Was just wondering, why Rumple did kiss Belle there in the hospital, it had a touch of desperation. So this theory came to my mind.
As for Cora and Rumple’s kiss, I’m suddenly reminded by someone’s avatar that in Supernatural, demons always seal deals with a kiss. Is this perhaps some kind of demon/Devil reference on Once?
Had that idea too, but then thought, that it would be a tad too dark for this show, not really the show’s style to go into that kind of mythology in my opinion. It wasn’t love’s kiss now, for sure not, maybe never was, but looks like these two have some complicate relationship on many levels. I do though still ponder, if Cora was playing some kind of trick on Rumple. Doubt it was sentimentality that made her kiss him. And I’m quite sure she was lying when she said, she knows only what Rumble taught her.
BeastWhisperer and PriceofMagic – liked both your analyses of Rumple’s behavior.
Oh, and BeastWhisperer I too was wondering, what about monster Gerhardt, was he kinda alive when the curse struck? It makes some sense, Whale seemed pretty desperate to get back to his land, to his brother. But what did monster Gerhardt do the past 28 years, where was he?
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