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@PriceofMagic wrote:
How much control does the person who took the heart have over the person who’s heart they’d taken? Does the heart plucker have to control the heart pluckee’s every move or can the heart pluckee go about their everyday business until their heart is in the heart plucker’s hand, at which point they have to submit to the heart plucker’s will?
The Huntsman / Sheriff Graham was able to do things on his own. He seemed to have some mind on his own even, despite that Regina had his heart in a box. So it’s what you said, a direct control of their action has the plucker (only), when she/he has the heart in their hands.
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David is David, is Prince Charming – why should he be anyone else?
The BBC show Merlin has to do with the classical Arthurian legend as much as Once Upon a Time with the Grimm’s Fairy tales collection, or even less. Not saying can’t be an inspiration, but have doubts, that the writers thought of the TV show from the UK.
In Arthurian legend Uther Pendragon slept with the wife of his former ally and then enemy Gorlois, disguised by Merlin’s magic as Gorlois. Uther attacked Gorlois because of wanting his wife. And Gorlois died that very night on the battle field against Uther’s army, while Uther pretend to be him and had his way with Igraine. To be clear: Igraine didn’t know and she was not interested at that point in Uther. And she had no problem conceiving a child. Later Igraine surrendered the lands of her husband to Uther and he married her. Merlin took Arthur to let him be raised safely away from Uther, hiding that Uther had a son.
I don’t quite see similarities to the BBC series Merlin.
In the show Arthur is Uther’s biological son. Unless Rumple played the same very bad trick on Charming’s mother as Merlin played on Igraine in the legend, Charming very sure is not King Georg’s biological son.
Okay, Igraine in the TV show Merlin and King Georg’s wife here shared the inability to conceive, and in both cases magic is used to come to an heir, but that is classical fairy tale concept (the long-wished-for child, that then is conceived because either some magical help was seeked or the magic of nature takes effect is something you can find for example in versions of Snow White and Sleeping Beauty as well).
In the TV show Merlin Uther has no round table, while in OUaT King George already has the round table in use.
In the crest of King Georg is a lion, not a dragon (and Charming doesn’t change the crest). Uther Pendragon and Arthur have a dragon in their crest (obvious why, and not just on the series).
The background story of Lancelot was already mentioned.
All this speaks against Charming’s twin having been Arthur as well.
Maybe I am biased here, because I think if they bring more of the Arthurian legend into the show, they shouldn’t do it by twisting Charmings story, I too think itwould be boring. But I’m not even keen on having Arthur, Merlin or anyone else from that tale besides Lancelot on OUaT any time soon.
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It’s hard not to think of he PotC movies when watching Captain Killian Jones, aka Hook, here. Oh, and we have a Miss Swan(n) in the movies too, Elizabeth Swann that is. Just a coincidence of course.
The idea, that Hook might have taken his own heart and hid it somewhere, is obvious. But do the writers go for the obivous? We’ll see, someday, maybe.
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@EvilQueen wrote:
I agree, they get mashed up oh so often, but the point of OUaT is that they attempt to show us how this might have happened and how the stories connect in a logical way.
In quite an innovative approach, they try to make those fairy tales HAVE SENSE. If we approached all the clues they give us with “they are just all mashed up and they can’t possibly make any sense” attitude, it would be no fun! 😉You’re right, it would be no fun to stop digging and connecting dots. I’m all for making sense. Am just challenging to find the best story possible.
And I love fairy tale and story book mashups, it’s creative, imaginative, we all should turn into story-tellers once in a while and create our own versions of tales. Nonnie, it’s not sad, that you can’t remember the stories correctly, that way you have no choice but to give stories something personal, and that is a good thing.
In their last podcast Kitsis&Horowitz said something interesting, that they like to explore the nature of love on this show, and that it is not just romantic love. For one they have done some exploring of parental love and the love of children, not just Emma, Regina and Henry, but it was the true love of a mother and her son which broke the curse. With Snow and Red they are exploring friendship as another expression of love – and I think there is still a lot to tell about it.
To come back to the story of Snow-White and Red-Rose, and to elaborate on what EvilQueen wrote: At the beginning of the tale it’s said, that the two loved each other so much, that they always walked hand in hand and promised to never abandon each other. It is what makes those two strong, that and a deep respect (another form of love) for all beings. They overcome the first fear of the bear (beast, yup, could be Red as wolf), and learn to have a good time with it, they face the terrible little man together, and in the end together they find a happy ending. Reading it that way, think you have a strong connection to the show, to the friendship of Snow and Red. And the stolen gold or treasures? Well, a lot of things can be treasures, love, even people can be.
Of course some people in our world couldn’t aknowledge that a friendship between two women could be so strong, so they had to turn them into sisters, made them look like little girls, and had to hide the true nature of the beast, but we know better. 😉
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This guy likes to be in a coma, or now deep sleep. Sits back and lets the women do all the work again. Charming!
Wasn’t the best choice if thinking of what might be best for Henry. Okay, Charming was worried about Henry’s safty (good grandfathers are), but if so as well he should have been worried, who Henry would be left with, if something went wrong and he gets stuck in the sleeping curse for at least a while. Given he trusts Regina by now as much, that she wouldn’t willingly harm Henry, but still, leaving Henry and the town pretty much in Regina’s and Rumples hand doesn’t look like such good idea, not to forget Spencer is still around.
On the other hand we all know love is not really a supporter of reason and rational choices, right?
And putting Charming in this sleeping curse, him now trapped in that Fire Room, so more at risk in getting harmed in that state – it heighten the stakes for Snow, and Emma. We know Snow can be a badass, but it took something more to make her attack Mulan the way she did, close to kill her.
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Do you think, Hook took the heart from Phillip’s body now lying around very much soulless in the castle, where before Aurora had slept time away? Guess his body will stay intact there and not rot away out of some magical reason, but think it makes a difference, to take the heart of a feeling, living, breathing being or a soulless body. Doubt that that heart would be of any magical use.
Hook very simply could have taken Aurora’s heart without her noticing anything while she was unconscious (Cora knocked her out, she was not just sleeping). Then Hook woke her up and let her go. Taking out the heart the magical way seems to leave mostly no physical visable mark and might even go fairly unnoticed by the victim if unconscious. Or did Graham had a scar? I know, when they find the bodies in the camp you could see some blood, something that actually bothered me, because before there never has been blood when a heart was taken magically, but it was somewhat necessary for the plot, to give them a clue it was Cora, who killed them all.
That we didn’t get to see, how Hook took the heart, has just story telling reasons. When he freed Aurora we couldn’t be told, to keep it as a surprise for later, when Cora finally made use of it. Same goes for the moment, when Hook offers it to Cora, we were left in the dark on purpose, to keep suspense up (come on, who was guessing he found some bean or something?). And later we didn’t really need to see it anymore, it was enough to tell, that Hook did it. You only have a certain amount of time every episode.
The deep connection of two hearts, uhm people truly in love is a motif in the show. “It’s the most powerful magic in the world”, “the only magic powerful enough to transcend realms and break any curse” (something Rumple says in 1×22 to Emma). And what Aurora said just fits into this motif.
Of course, if Hook took the heart of Phillip, I would go a step further, saying, he sold it as Aurora’s heart to Cora – otherwise the lines between Hook and Cora talking about the heart wouldn’t make sense. Because of the deep connection out of love between Phillip and Aurora Cora didn’t notice the difference and could use it to manipulate Aurora as we got to see it. All that would though mean, that Hook must have an extended knowledge of magically ripping hearts and what you can do with the hearts then, maybe knowing more than even Cora. But why do this trick? To have a failsafe, but of what kind? Like Aurora being free of Cora’s influence the moment she’s told what’s going on, because it’s not her own heart used to controlle her? To outsmart Cora? To look good to Emma in the end? But for the writer of course it might come in handy later to explain, how they could keep Aurora alive despite being manipulated by Cora via a heart, if they do take her to SB and not let her stay or die in FTL. Hmmmm. 🙄
Concerning the zombies: right, it looked liked she just needed to take one heart as a kind of master heart to awake some others – but what would be the connection between those hearts to make it possible? Or could she use hearts without special connections as long as she just needs some zombies, while what she is doing with Aurora is a little bit more sophosticated, thus it takes a strong connection between the hearts?
It just gets too complicate. Too much headaches. It sounds to me more plausible that it is Aurora’s heart.
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At some point there was no difference between what we now call as science chemistry and what is called magic. For some it is probably still the same (hey, wasn’t that the class where everything smelled ugly and everybody looked funny but no one had a clue what the teacher was doing?). But seriously, in history that difference wasn’t always made. Alchemy was seen as an art of magic (and not just in a bad sense). It wasn’t all hocus-pocus but the basis for modern chemistry and medicine.
Here in the show think different forms of magic exist and are practiced. Now, is the alchemist version of magic, like Regina practices it making the sleeping curse, stronger than chemistry? No, it is mostly chemistry. But it’s not the only form of magic you can find or experience. True love’s kiss hardly can be explained by any alchemist cooking. Is magic stronger than science in general? Depends on what you believe in.
What is magic anyway?
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Definitely. As long as he is dark and evil, and charming. A good story needs a brilliant villain, and Hook has some potential. Okay, maybe some season later they can give even him a chance to redeem himself, but for now most certainly prefer his dark sides to shine on the show, and to do so for a while longer. 😈
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Possible, that someone in the prop department making the book just happens to love these two fairy tales. They had to come up with text to make it look right. 😉
Wouldn’t be too surprised, if they are toying here with us, in whatever way. Doesn’t mean, the fairy tale has to have any logical, reasonable connection to the story telling of the series, the characters and their FTL background story or whatever is happening now. Not everything has profound meanings, sometimes it’s just a wink, a nod, hommage, a wordplay, an injoke or even random.
And if you get deeper into fairy tale research, meaning origins, resources, variations of and possible interpretations and meanings, you will most certainly get headaches. Just take one of the most popular tales, Snow White (Sneewittchen in the books of the Brothers Grimm, Schneewittchen in modern German, and better known in English as Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs): you can find different versions of it, other fairy tales sounding in parts similiar, nearly the same tale with other titles, mashups, renarrations, other wording or changes for different editions … In the different editions of their books the Brothers Grimm (=BG) too made changes. Like that it was the stepmother and not the mother being jealous of Snow White. In Austria, according to annotations of the BGs the story is told in a version without stepmother but two sisters hating their youngest and most beautiful sister (and all of a sudden you have a mashup with Cinderella). There are elements of other tales from BGs book in it, namely The Juniper Tree (Von dem Machandelboom) and The Glass Coffin (Der Gläserne Sarg). Johann Karl August Musäus on the other hand tells an interesting tale named Richilde, that gives a detailed background story for the stepmother of Blanca (aka Snow White), and somehow manages to get Albert Magnus into the picture, he makes the magical mirror and gives it to Richilde, the stepmother (here we go, a saint, doctor universalis, and legend has it, he discovered the philophers stone, was a magician, and had characteristic of Merlin, or would it be Rumpelstiltskin here … what a great start for more speculations). And because I am sure someone will ask, here a link to an English renarration of “Richilde”. And bet many aren’t aware even of the differences between the Disney version and the BG tale, like that it didn’t take true loves kiss but just a clumsy servant to break the curse.
Okay, back to Snow-White and Rose Red, a totally different story, that has no similiarities with Snow White and the dwarfs. If anything I can only see something along what EvilQueen wrote, a reference to Snow and Red, they becoming like sisters, facing adventures together and maybe helping some yet unknown cursed prince or so along the way. Looking at the paintings of the tale can very well see the shows characters Snow and Red in that somewhat, red hood, white hood. But that’s it. An enchanted or cursed prince as bear (beast) is a common motif in tales. And a gnome, or dwarf, being nasty is quite common too. Well, might be able to come up with some mashup going into the direction of this tale, but I wouldn’t take it literally.
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Talking of tweeting, cough, in this case croaking. You’re right, Faux Pax, it feels off, that they now bring it like it’s no biggie: Oh, btw, Snow can understand some bird talk. On the other hand I remember faintly, that I had that thought sometime before, in some scene, but so can’t remember, when (should take more notes while watching). There were hints, but they never made use of it.
But I am not even sure now, that Snow does understand birds. Isn’t it possible, that Cora’s magic made it possible, that the crow could deliver the message to them?
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