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Late for the discussion, but adding some thoughts.
Think if comparing Regina and Emma regarding Henry, should ask a few simple questions:
What was the prime motive for Regina to adopt Henry in the first place? Was it for Henry’s sake or more for her sake? Was it to give love or to receive love? Was she eager about her happy ending or about Henry’s happy ending? Regina did care for Henry, but did she really, deeply care about him before Emma showed up? Did she after?
and
Did Emma give up Henry for adoption for her own sake or for Henry’s sake? Was it to give herself a better chance or to give Henry his best chance?
None of these questions have to do something with Henry’s point of view though, I leave that here out to not complicate things more. Depending on who’s point of view you take, might answer differently. I’m looking for motives not judgement, exploring the characters (I like both characters and find them both interesting, just saying). I don’t expect you to answer it here, but think of it.
Think neither Emma nor Regina could be named best mother ever.
Emma had very low self-esteem when she gave up Henry for adoption. She did it despite her own bad experience with the foster system. She could only hope, that things for Henry would be better, because she never felt like tossing him away, unlike what she thought her parents did with her. Emma must have been convinced, that no matter what, Henry would be better off without her.
Besides Henry there is something else Regina and Emma share: a lack of experience with true love, though because of very different events and reasons. One has an emotional void to fill, the other has to overcome her emotional walls. Interestingly enough it’s Henry who brought (back) a sense of true love into both lives.
For Emma this moment could only happen, when she finally started to believe in the stories in Henry’s book, believe in fairy tales magic and true love. Ironically it was only after she felt like she had totally failed and thought she had lost Henry, that she is able to show true love openly. That is, when the curse breaks (or at least partially does).
Emma has not just abondement issues but some serious issues with commitment and expectations as well. So yes, I can see, why one might think, that she gave up Henry for her own sake as much as for his even, although I think, her prime motive was the best chance for Henry. Emma never felt anywhere at home, and over time it was easier for her to put up with it by not making herself be at home anywhere. And expectations always can be scary, but for Emma experiences with expectations about her as much as with expectations she had mostly weren’t good. A simple way to deal with that: reduce your own expectations, avoid feeding other people’s expectations, and care as little as you can about what other people think of you. Keep things simple and no obligations. She struggled with it all through season 01.
In “Price of Gold” Emma tells Ashley: “People are going to tell you who you are your whole life. You just got to punch back and say, “no, this is who I am.” You want people to look at you differently? Make them. You want to change things? You’re going to have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world” It sums pretty much up, what Emma’s philosophy of life was when she came to Storybrook. A philosophy which is somewhat eroded now that she has prove there are fairy godmothers, Furthermore: now all of a sudden she has a home, a family, people putting her first for a change, or as long as there is no world to save. I wouldn’t expect anyone to adapt to that over night. People can change, but it takes a while. She still has some emotional walls up.
Or in other words: I would be disappointed with the writers, if, when Emma and Snow return (alone or bringing some people with them), all would be happy ending for Charming-White-Swan(-Mills)-family and there would be just the fight with Hook and Cora. Think there is still some dynamic and personal struggle and issues left in the family, for Emma.
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Interesting.
There is more in the Wikepidia article. It points to the term ‘nostalgia’ – what we understand as longing for the past, but it has been used before as a medical term for homesickness, which was seen as a serious illness on its own (the German term “Heimweh” for homesickness sounds so much more poetic). Can understand nostalgia as the longing for that which you’ve lost (home, past). And with the waters of Lake Nostos you can still the longing (thirst for the past, what is gone) by getting the lost back.
@Clessidor Of course, Frau Holle! *headdesk* How could I not think of that.To spark some more speculation adding: In the tale of “Frau Holle” the reason that a maiden jumps into the well in the first place is, that she lost a spindle in the well, which she wanted to clean from her own blood. She was forced to spin all day and worked so hard, her fingers bled. No, story has nothing to do with the fairy tale of Rumpelstiltskin. Just a coincidence. 😉
There is one problem with the theory of the well in Storybrook being a way to Lake Nostos in Fairy Tale land: the lake was already dried out before the curse (episode Lady of the Lake, 2×03) Makes me wonder about the wishing well in Storybrook we see in “What Happened to Frederick” and in the season 01 final. That well must have some magic anyway, as it looks the same but is not in the same place in the two episodes (nagging about details). But does it has to do anything with Lake Nostos, besides that they use the same description of magical power, and that August mentions, that a legends says its water is coming from an underground lake? How is that possible, seeing that Lake Nostos was dried out before the curse? Or hasn’t the lake dried out but someone stole its water, hidding it somewhere else? Or was the water not totally gone but just disappeared underground? But why should it now be in our world feeding the well?
It’s not the same well though where Prince Thomas disappeared, that one looked different, and I doubt, they meant it to be the same one.
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@Lady of The Lake wrote:
Please click on this link http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_Who_Was_Hidden_Underground and it says a German Fairy Tale not Greek… and also on that article says:
The Princess Who Was Hidden Underground
The Princess Who Was Hidden Underground is a German fairy tale. Andrew Lang included it in The Violet Fairy Book.[1]
SynopsisA king had three sons and divided his property. The older two squandered theirs, but the youngest son was prudent, and became rich. He had an underground castle built, killed the architect, imprisoned his daughter there, and decreed that whoever could find her would marry her, but whoever tried and failed would die. Many did die.
and here is another link about that tale
http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/054.htmWikipedia isn’t always right in every detail. The book I found the exact wording of the fairy tale in German in was first published in 1864 by Johann Georg von Hahn, who, besides being a diplomat for Prussia and later Austria in Athen, was a specialist in Albanian history and culture. He places the tale among other tales from the region of Epirus. The online version I linked to is based on an edition from 1918 though. The Violet Fairy Book by Andrew Lang was first published in 1901 – stating as “source” for this particular fairy tale nothing besides “from German” (and both links, Wikipedia and the other refer to Andrew Lang)
Of course fairy Tales can be found in variations in different countries, it’s often not easy to tell, where they might have originated. And sometimes different fairy tales sound very alike. But so far I haven’t found any fairy tale alike or close to “The Princess Who was hidden Underground” in any older German fairy tale anthology.
Sorry for being so scholarly here. Having a thing for such unimportant details.
Should stop no one to look for interesting tales that might give ideas for the background of the sunken palace / castle used as den. Of course not.
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The Hogwart idea has something.
Can think of different effects:
– no one can visit or even see Storybrook who doesn’t know it’s there – but that would make supply with modern goods somewhat difficult
– if someone from Storybrook invites non-fairy-tale related or non-magical people from the outside to come, they will be able to see and visit Storybrook, but after leaving eventually forget about it – would at least solve the problem with trade with the outside world
– anyone can come to Storybrook, but only those in some relation to Storybrook people or FTL (like August, Emma, Henry) can remember after they’ve left
– the curse made Storybrook an unquestioned part of this world, no one and nothing gives away that it hasn’t been there 28 years agoHenry used a credit card in Boston, either the cab driver experienced some nasty surprise an didn’t get the money, or money transfer between Storybrook and the rest of world does work. Same goes for the service Henry used to find his mother. How did Henry get into the Bus, does the bus stop regularly in Storybrook? And we know Kathryn Nolan had contact to people in Boston, although only via mail / phone.
Our world is, or has been the world without magic, we assume, but has it ever been explicitly said? Just wondering. For sure it’s not a world without magic anymore.
Must have taken a huge amount of magic to just build the town, not to mention to keep the people in it in a kind of mental haze and frozen in time, and to set up their alternative identity. Possible it draw a lot of magical energy from Fairy Tale Lands, thus destroying most of it (in the sense of depleting it powers, turning it into a wasteland). Maybe an existing town was used, the people replaced by the folks of FTL and their identities stolen (and those people now live in some inbetween world with no way back). But then any relatives of these people living outside the town would become a problem.
Did Regina or Rumpelstilskin know anything before about our world? How? Did Regina create everybody’s new life / identity as Jefferson suggesst, or was it part of the curse and thus not really in her control? Some complicate curse it was, that much we know.
Ah, magic, can give one a headache. 🙄
Fans can be a bunch of gadflies. 😆
Reminds me of a little girl wondering, why fairy tale princesses never have to look very urgently for a bathroom.
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Interesting
One little thing: “The Princess Who was hidden Underground” is not a German fairy tale (A. Lang wasn’t detailed about his resources, unfortunately.) It seems to be a Greek fairy tale, found the text in a German book about Greek and Albanian Fairy Tales from 1918. For those able to read German: Johann Georg von Hahn: Griechische und Albanesische Märchen
It doesn’t say though, that it was a sunken castle. The father of the princess build a castle underground and locked his beautiful daughter up in there.
Don’t remember so far any tales about sunken castles on land, only tales of sunken villages, towns, and castle in lakes or in the sea. Maybe something from “One Thousand and One Nights”, Aladdin, Sindbad?
Concering Anita: In their podcast Horowitz/Kitsis tell, that the title of the episode was inspired by the song “Child of the Moon” by the Rolling Stones, released as B-Track of Jumpin’ Jack Flash” in 1968. The design of the den too was a reference to the Stones, as they say, the Stones went in 1967 on a trip to Morroco. The actress and designer Anita Pallenberg had a relationship with Stones’ guitarist Brian Jones, which ended on that trip to Morroco, she left with Keith Richard, and they stayed a couple for 12 years. Maybe just a coincidence, but makes me think, that the name of Ruby’s mother could be a nod to Anita Pallenberg. (and then there is Ruby Tuesday, another Stones’ song … should hear some Rolling Stones again, haven’t done for a while)
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Indeed, it felt rushed how fast Red embraced the wolf and learned to not black out (getting control, or start to). But, well, there is just a certain amount of time they have to tell the story on TV, in one episode. And for my taste not even a feature lenght movie could have offered enough time to tell the story of Red here. 😉
Was excited, that they now did tell more of Red’s story, what happened after she learned first who she is, that she killed someone she loved. Was waiting for this story since Red Handed.
Favorite scenes (hard to choose):
When Ruby tells David with a happy, happy face and bright smile, that she’s going to do something she hasn’t done for a long time: run. So felt with her and the wish to fully enjoy being who she is. Finally.
Scenes between Belle and Ruby at the diner and in the library. Belle is such a good soul and perceptive person. A great friendship in the making.
When David tells Ruby he is not going to let her down, that he is not going to make the same mistake to Ruby he made to Snow few months ago. It told much about what David is struggeling with. The curse might be broken, but so much has happened meanwhile. There is plenty of drama in it.
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The wolf den had a North-African or maybe Middle Eastern touch, so ashley_2754 that the symbol reminded you of your flag is maybe not a coincidence. It’s a star and crescent, a symbol already used in ancient Near East, in Byzantium it was a symbol of the goddess Hecate, who was connected with the Moon, magic, witchcraft, sorcery, knowledge of herbs and crossroads. Hecate sometimes was shown as dog-shaped or with a (she-) dog (no wolves, but some people can’t tell the difference).
It’s an interesting catch, that crescent and star are on the necklace given to Henry. and as well for classification of the boddle. Even without a direct connection as in this theory it makes some sense, if you think of the connection with Hecate (poison, herbs, magic as much as crossroads do fit in all three cases maybe)
If it was meant more as crescent and sun it could stand for duality, something makeing sense with werewolves as well.
And right, maybe it was Rumpelstiltskin who made the red cloak for Red. he has a story with pretty much everyone in FTL, so why not with Grandma Lucas and Ruby too.
— Sorry for turning into a scholar sometimes :ugeek: —
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Red room disco inferno 😆 So I wasn’t the only one thinking immediately of Twin Peaks, good.
And I guess, some people here like to watch crime shows a lot 😉 Did Spencer / King Georg use an axt? Then should have seen on first sight, that Billy couldn’t have been torn apart and killed by an animal. And why do the people so readily believe David, that it was Spencer? Besides the other things already mentioned.
Red going for a run as wolf in the end is one of my favorite moments of the episode. Although you’re right, might have been not the wisest idea considering how some people reacted before to her. David might have convinced them, that she didn’t kill Billy, but that didn’t calm down everybody’s fears. That David doesn’t object, didn’t bother me, he trusts her. That Red now thinks she can do it without risk of harming anyone, now sure that she is (again) in control, is the right conclusion though, the episode was about her coming to terms with what and who she is, in FTL and now again in Storybrook.
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@Gypsy wrote:
I think Gold/Rumple knows exactly what the dreams are- he seemed to know what he was talking about- and knows that, somehow, through these dreams, Emma can be brought back to Storybrooke. I think he needs Emma in Storybrooke, because he can’t leave to search for Bae, but, Emma can. And, she owes him a favor.
Mr. Gold knows what the “dreams” are, he explaines it to Henry and Regina: That under a sleeping curse “the souls travel to a Netherworld .. a world between life and death and it’s very real” When the curse is broken come victims sometimes in sleep find the way back to that Netherworld (aka hell, underworld).
Not sure,if through the Netherworld people could be brought in their own body into another world, maybe their souls though could be. What Gold doesn’t know, who the other person in the Netherworld is, if she has a connection to Emma. He might speculate and hope, that it’s Snow, he knows she was under the sleeping curse. So possible, he might hope, by giving Henry means to control his actions in the Netherworld, that he could be able to establish a useful communication, to bring them back to Storybrook. Or he might at this moment just wish to help Henry to not get hurt in the Netherworld, having no other motive (yet).
@Marilou wrote:
I’ve been thinking since the episode aired, we all know that magic comes with a price and in this case, no price was paid for said magic, therefore, maybe no magic happened or was used. what Gold gave to henry was a mere placebo (I don’t think it was done with bad intentions, maybe Gold just did this to give Henry the courage he needed)
Interesting idea, have been thinking that too. Could be just a placebo, something to make Henry believe he can control his actions in Netherworld. Sometimes believe is all the “magic” it takes.
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