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December 16, 2015 at 12:43 pm in reply to: TVLine 12/15 – Matt's Inside Line – Captain Silver #314278
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ParticipantFor once, it looks like they’re introducing a character that is legitimately connected to one of ONCE’s protagonists in the world of fiction in a way that’s not egregiously shoehorned or just straight up cynical Big Mouse opportunism.
At the same time, I’m nervous. I grew up with Stevenson’s books, and adored them. I’d hate to see OUAT butcher these stories and characters. Also, how all of this factors into the Underworld plot, I’m not sure. Except that the concept of the “black spot,” or “black mark” which the POC Dead Man’s Chest “borrowed” originally comes from Stevenson’s Treasure Island. So that’s another connection, however tenuous.
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ParticipantIn other news, I finished watching Jessica Jones. I’d like to make it mandatory viewing for A and E (and the whole writing staff) but only if they let me binge-watch it with them so I can point out how Kilgrave *is* Hook but that in the hands of smart, capable, intelligent, and in the know writers, he is not woobified and made into a romantic lead but instead left as a sociopath who represents male privilege and who embodies rape culture and, furthermore, how women do not fall for such creatures but fight them BECAUSE NO ONE WOULD WANT TO BE IN LOVE WITH SOMEONE WHO VIEWS THEM AS OBJECTS. *ahem* I may have some thoughts after finishing the show. (god, no but really. parallels. parallels all over the place)
Yaaaas. I had similar thoughts watching JJ, especially in relation to the crazypants CS writing this season.
Also, I recently came across this on Tor, an article on gaslighting and Jessica Jones. Thought folks here might enjoy it.
Here’s a quote to explain the term “gaslighting” — I wasn’t familiar with it before. I think it’s pretty pertinent to OUAT and CS:
For those who may not be familiar, gaslighting is a term that traces its origins to a 1938 play titled <em style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: ‘Georgia Pro W01’, Georgia, serif; line-height: inherit; font-size: 17px; vertical-align: baseline; color: #545353;”>Gas Light (which was also adapted to film twice), a tale of a husband who uses subtle tricks and denials to convince his wife that she is losing her mind. It became a psychological term in the 1960s, the definition being “a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.” It is a devastatingly effective tactic, allowing an abuser to more easily manipulate the subject of their choice.
Also, @Rainbow, thank you for linking that fic. Best thing ever after this disaster of a 1/2 season.
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ParticipantThey already have David Anders running around as Blaine DeBeers. IZombie / OUAT crossover, ftw
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Participant1) What was your favorite episode of 5A?
Probably Dreamcatcher, although more by omission than based on its own merits. Overall, the whole season was so sub par, that the episodes where things actually came together in a believable way are really the only ones I can vaguely recall2) What was your least favorite episode of 5A?
Bear King. I fail to see its point.3) Overall thoughts on the Dark Swan/Camelot arc?
Both had potential, but were done really poorly. It seems that they tried to cram what should have been an entire season into 1/2 season. It would have made so much more sense to have it broken down into two sub-seasons: 5A could have been Camelot, and 5B Dark Swan proper. Instead, they seemed to have forgotten about Camelot altogether at some point mid-way. Character development was jerky: kind of a “shake’n’bake” approach which was very dissatisfying.4) Who was your favorite new character?
Gorgon the Invincible
5) What was your favorite moment?
Honestly, I’ve no idea. With previous seasons I can still remember specific episodes and scenes. With this one, it’s all already a vague and messy blur. Some of the things that stand out is Clippy!Rumple’s snark, JMo when she does Dark Swan, some of the conversations and repartee between Emma and Regina, and some moments between Rumple and Belle.
6) What was your favorite plot twist?
I think Evil!Arthur had potential, and when it was revealed early on that he had his own agenda, I was intrigued. What they did with the rest of the Camelot story is just laughable.
7) What was your least favorite plot twist?
Take your pick. Rumple reverting to DO (no rhyme or reason to it, awful characterization), Dark Hook (totally flushing the whole DO cosmology down the drain), Merlin being killed by Hook, Guinevere being mind-controlled by her psychotic husband. The heroes planning to rescue Hook from Hell while leaving their young children in the care of the fairies. But taking teenage Henry along.’
Good thing SB isn’t hooked into the main grid. I can see Social Services having a field day with that one.
8) Overall grade for 5A and final thoughts?
Overall, the quality of the writing has deteriorated so much that I’m honestly not sure I want to return to OUAT again in 5B. The only reason I would is because I’m intrigued by what they might do with Hades, but I’m at the point where I am not really interested in any of the main or supporting characters and their plight. The dialogue is still, on occasion, done well — especially when Jane Espenson is involved. But that’s the only part of the writing that has kept any sort of quality.
S5A has methodically assassinated most of OUAT’s best characters, has continued to peddle an insidious but seriously objectionable gender ideology, and wasn’t even able to carry a minimally coherent or logical narrative.
C- for the plot / D+ for characterization
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Participant^^Lol that is pretty funny. But also kind of sad in that it pithily captures just how friggin absurd this show has become
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Participant<p style=”text-align: left;”>The 100 is legitimately really good. I second that recommendation.</p>
Also, @Rainbow — what is this Lucifer business? New show?@RG — I don’t watch BBT but have a couple of friends who do, so have heard all about the latest developments — all hail Shamy 🙂
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ParticipantAnyway, they’ve had two chances to permanently keep Rumple out of the show, and he stuck around after both.
Right. I guess I was trying to think from the perspective of the writers — if one of your main characters isn’t evolving over the course of a book or series, they tend to become less compelling to the audience, so one strategy might be to get rid of him/her. But that’s obviously truer for a fiction writer than for folks penning a TV show, since there’s the whole actors’ contract aspect of things, which isn’t something you need to worry about if you’re, say, writing a novel. *shrug* I don’t have much time or energy to read stuff about OUAT outside of this forum, so obviously if there’s reliable info about contracts, this discussion is moot.
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ParticipantI had predicted that Rumple would die at the end of S4. I was proven wrong and thought they might go a decidedly different route for the rest of S5 since he was Hat-Sucked and Heroized.
Yikes, maybe we should start yet another “The End of Rumple” thread — I don’t want to coopt the original focus on Emma’s heart. Anyway, feel free to move this if it gets too off topic (or long-winded):
Anyway, here’s my Rumple’s on the way out theory. I remember thinking the same thing last season. Here’s one possible guess: I think A&E probably have a sense of how much more they can squeeze out of OUAT before reception drops below a critical threshold and they get cancelled. Just that list of numbers in the ratings thread is quite telling. My guess is that they were planning to kill him off at the end of S4, with the assumption that S5 would be the last season, at which point they’d have their hands untied in terms of having to retain as much of their audience as they can. (If RC’s contract stipulates 5 years, then he could have been kept around as DO!Rumple). So it might have been that Rumple’s gone => Emma = Dark Swan, final season, the end.
But then maybe by mid S4 the numbers came back more positive than anticipated and a S6 became at least a possibility. If so, then it would have been a good call to delay Rumple’s demise, so that they could milk one more non-final season out of the character’s fans. Hence the whole nonsense with the hat suction and all that.
(I wonder if the dropping of the Camelot plot is a reaction to an anticipated renewal.) Either way, I really think this is the last arc for Rumple, precisely because S6 is likely, but also likely the last one based on the numbers. Rumple started as a complicated villain, and hence potentially redeemable, but now they have too many of those, and they need a contrast. Hence retconning him beyond recognition (ie he’s ALWAYS been a coward obsessed with power, never mind everything else). The possibility of an irredeemable/inherent villain isn’t the original premise of OUAT, but by S4 that original premise was negated when they introduced Cruella.
My guess? And sorry for the cynicism — I think Rumple’s annoying to the writers in part because they can’t quite shippify him: essentially what they did to Emma and Regina by devoting all their activity to ship work. (Because he’s a male character, and unlike Hook and Robin, has too much of a fleshed out backstory). They have to come up with more complicated motivations, but these writers just don’t have it in them anymore — I honestly think they’re just, you know, tired. It’s not just Rumple — the entire show is now, by and large, a soap. I think the focus on the romances isn’t just pandering to overzealous fans, it allows the writers to “coast” while exerting the least effort possible. If the formula works, why mess with a good thing — soaps are usually the longest lived TV shows anyway.
On Rumbelle: I don’t think that this is a pairing the writers have ever been invested in (like they are in CS, for example). I think Rumbelle was by and large a fluke: the product of Jane Espenson’s talented dialogue writing, and of RC’s and EdR’s acting abilities and good screen chemistry. But, looking back at it now, I don’t think there was ever a plan or a telos to the relationship. It’s written in a way that’s both extremely repetitive and sort of “opportunistic” in that it’s just there to plug the holes left by the other characters. The telos — that they are meant to be together in the end — is more of a fandom phenomenon. RC and EdR carry the script, sort of, because they’re talented actors, but I don’t see the writers being invested in exploring their stories, either as individual characters, or as a pairing.
As to how they might handle EdR’s pregnancy: Well, that probably threw a bit of a monkey wrench into the whole thing. My guess is that they’ll go for maximum drama, and have Rumple die — in this case, Belle will presumably be raising the kid alone. No shame, Regina did it. If they want to really crank up the melodrama, they’ll have her die in childbirth, and the baby will be raised by, presumably, one of our favorite hero couples. Thus demonstrating their magnanimous forgiveness of all the evil Rumple has done to them. Or something. Will that anger parts of the fandom? You bet. But then, #bold storytelling, remember?
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ParticipantChances are such a logical idea won’t come true.
I love it. And… it’s way too logical and well thought-out for this show. But I’m almost willing to see if it might be right. Almost.
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ParticipantThough considering how selfish the “heroes” are, it wouldn’t surprise me if they did screw Rumple over because who cares so long as THEY get what they want.
Yes, that would be my guess. It wouldn’t be the first time where they’re willing to thrown Rumple under the bus, and since he’s now a card carrying villain again (and apparently willingly so), I think from the writers’ perspective, it opens that narrative possibility. If Rumple’s irredeemable, then this means it’s no holds barred. I predict a Cora-like ending along the lines of “you would’ve been enough.”
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