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For what it’s worth, this interview with RC is a bit dated (and I’m sure many of you have seen it), but to me seems to capture some of the main quandaries of Rumple’s relationship with Belle.
Carlyle: He definitely loves her. There’s no doubt about that and he wants to be with her. This other thing, [other] part of his life, is probably bigger. Because this has existed long before she came along and will probably exist long after she’s gone. This hat and this kind of quest for magic and power is so massive for him. This kind of addiction he has to it is huge. That’s what drives Rumplestiltskin more than love.
Question: Do you see him getting a happy ending?
Carlyle: I don’t know. I really don’t know. To be honest, it’s… I think if you start to think of the characters like that then you’re going to start to lose the essence of what they are. Ultimately, they’re not meant for that world. The other characters — Snow White, Charming or whoever it is — these are the happy ending people. So whether these other ones get to that place or not is up to the creators. For me, I just don’t think it would be honest to do that.
From the horse’s mouth, as it were.
[adrotate group="5"]So back to the question I posed. What do you think the new condition will be? S1 was “magic is coming” so could S2 be “magic is dying”? We’ve already had a several conditions: S1) First dark curse is lifted and magic is coming. S2) Regina plans to kill everyone in SB by triggering a fail-safe. With Emma’s help, Regina corrects that mistake S3a) Peter Pan’s curse is cast. Regina sends everyone back to EF. S3b) Snow and Charming recast the dark curse bringing everyone back to SB.
Well, this is going to be crackpot, but I wonder if it’s maybe not about magic at all. Rather, perhaps Isaac’s messing with the story somehow disrupts the cosmic order of the universe whereby worlds meant to be be held apart begin to collapse together. Blue, at least, seems to care about the great order of things (her comment that the DO curse isn’t meant for this world comes to mind). I’ve no idea what the result of that might be, but it would be logical if messing with the story would be more disruptive than simply making the characters’ lives complicated.
Oy. Don’t get me wrong, I mean the Internet more generally is Troll Central, but I guess what I’m surprised by is a) that the OUAT fandom lends itself to this sort of thing. I mean, I get why political and some professional venues (well, at least mine) are home to culture wars. This, to me, seems like a good reason to avoid them like the plague and indulge in the pretty innocuous escapism that shows like OUAT enable. But apparently there be dragons here too 😉 and b) it’s bizarre that it’s primarily divided over what appears to be ships/characters, as @Rainbow is mentioning, rather than a discussion over writing/representations.
Jo, if I’m not mistaken Joss Whedon has quit Twitter a couple of times. Which isn’t to say he’s not legitimately annoyed, since so much of the negativity was phrased as personal attacks. Actually the article I linked above is more or less about that.
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Happy belated birthday, WR. Hope you had a lovely day and got to kick back
This! You know it’s bad when hardcore Rumple fans are leaving the fandom…
Interesting post. I thought the comment on the nature of the fandom was really revealing, too. She’s actually arguing that the awful writing for Rumple is half the problem, and the other half is the hostility from other fans of the show. I usually consciously stay the heck away from tumblr, but is the sort of vitriol the author is writing about a thing? Thoughts?
I’m actually reminded of this article on the new Avengers movie (spoliery, be warned) — it’s more about the treatment of strong female characters by the franchise, but also to some extent about aggressive responses from the fans.
Yes Belle became the “Sexy Librarian” in all the stereotypical 1980s Hollywood nerd-boy fantasy “glory” I am honestly waiting for a scene of Belle leaning over, top two buttons undone and chewing on a pencil.
You forgot Looking-Over-the-Frame-of-Entirely-Useless-Glasses (TM). 😉 And as much as we can blame this on Rumple, he had nothing to do with it.
A la the Yaugui (I can never spell that right…)
Precisely.
We’ll see. But I think we’re purposely not seeing what Belle is like (in teasers) for this AU because she is a stay-at home housewife.
I tend to disagree on the assessment that Rumple somehow doesn’t respect women (or respects them less than men — my sense is that he is pretty equal opportunity in his disdain). Based on his relationship with Cora, after she had achieved a certain magic level, he treated her as an equal, recognized and I think admired her scheming and abilities. Of course, his relationship with Cora wasn’t based on any kind of B&B canon, which is itself a messy can of worms in terms of gender relations.
As to the seemingly disparaging attitude to housewives, or equating a housewife to a “Stepford wife”, lets maybe pause before we go down that route, no? If we are to make a feminist argument, then we should probably defend a woman’s right to choose, as well as pay attention to the economic/social constraints that produce the necessity of one person staying at home. The problem isn’t that Belle or Milah find themselves in the domestic sphere. Disparaging said domestic sphere is, actually, a deeply patriarchal position — this is precisely what enables a type of power relations that relegates women to the sidelines. The problem is that this isn’t what they want for themselves.
Also, let’s not confuse Belle and Milah. Milah to me comes across as a woman who got saddled with a family before she wanted one. She’s out in the tavern drinking and hanging out with pirates while her small child is at home cared for by Rumple. Belle’s actually an intellectual, her interests are more of the quiet scholar/explorer type. Problem is, OUAT did not do well with developing this female scholar archetype, which is quite sad, it would have been interesting and a nice alternative to the sassy Regina/tomboy Emma/motherly yet tough Snow etc.
On the other hand, relationships involve compromises, and things like potential danger are things to be negotiated together (Lets take the example of a husband in the army, being deployed to a war zone, and the partner, not trained in the military, wants to come along. I would imagine that might involve some negotiation. This isn’t about gender equality, it’s about competence. If the partner in question is Mulan, this would be a very different conversation.) I could imagine Belle working as a kind of field-scholar from the sidelines, essentially gathering intelligence on Ogre culture. 🙂
I am already expecting it. She will be pretty little house wife, who sits at home and cooks and cleans, and reads her books, with no want to see the great wide open of the world, or go on adventures. If this is what Rump wants her to be in his HE, I don’t know how to feel. I’d have much rather preferred she was his…Assistant Knight. (Knight-ess? Is there a name for female knights?) Like, okay, maybe he woldnt want Belle out there fighting ogres and such with him, but she could be his companion wife, always there with her books and things, ready to help out with information, battling from the sidelines. Why am I not writing this show.
THIS. On all fronts. The problem though is that on OUAT, for all its “strong female character” mojo, long-running female characters gravitate towards one of three possibilities: “dude in a skirt;” “mother;” and “eye candy”. The latter can take the shape of “demure” or “vixen” (Belle has managed to be both).
Oh, and Mother Superior. Not sure how to qualify Blue (other than shady).
(I suppose if I want complex female characters, I should go watch The Good Wife, but still, one can hope)
Just a thought — all this talk of who does and doesn’t come back from the dead suggests that either Rumple or Isaac (or both) are keeping track of an entire cast of more or less episodic characters, and making sure that in that short span of time that Rumple has before he apparently succumbs to heart failure, he’ll meticulously mention them so that Isaac can write them in. Hmpf.
I think in Rumple’s HEA (if that’s what we’re witnessing on some level) the Dark One’s curse isn’t a thing at all and he’s the Light One–or at least a very valiant knight.
I agree. And I do wonder whether Rumple would even want to have magic. If all he ever wanted was to be a hero, wouldn’t he want to get rid of the temptation of magic use (which always comes with a price)? I don’t think that the entire magic system can be rewritten by Isaac – at least, I hope not. That would be OUAT’s most giant gimmick to date. Anyway, S4 has worked hard to establish Rumple as an addict (rather than just a coward who hides behind magic out of fear). Actually, I think whether he wishes to be rid of the addiction altogether, or whether he’ll want the benefits without the drawbacks will be quite telling about how hopeless he is at this point.
As for RH, I dunno. He seems to be taking on Prince Charming’s role (they even have Sean dressed in some of Josh’s old clothes) but instead of finding Regina he ends up marrying Zelena so he is denied his HEA. But he’s not necessarily a villain like Snow and Charming.
Unless, as someone theorized on this thread, Outlaw Regina interrupts the wedding and RH elopes with her, à la Charming and Snow.
As Cruella said, Rumple’s claim about the odds being stacked against them sounded a lot better than blaming bad judgement and gin
Man, I miss Cruella. She had the best lines 🙂 Though Isaac did say that for whatever reason Regina’s had it especially tough, because there were ‘bigger forces at work,’ so I hope they address that.
Of course, on a meta level, Rumple is right. In Disneyfied fairytales, villains never win. Hehe, maybe he’s trying to stage the fairytale villains’ revolution against the oppression of Disneyfication. (Hence the whole ‘villains of the world unite’ story arc, and the teaming up with the author, thus reappropriating the means of production of fairytale stories…). Ok, now I’m really overthinking this. O_o
Basically, if Isaac is literally dictating every decision that the characters make in the AU, then none of their decisions will be their own, in which case, they’re all just puppets on a string who’re being controlled.
I’m still unclear on the rules of how his writing works — can he manipulate everything, or are there limits? In any case, if Isaac is micromanaging every decision, then it eliminates the moral quandary of annulling anything positive that might come out of this AU for character development. Then, you’re right, Henry restoring things to status quo is the only logical solution to an universe without free will.
