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Why would Regina fall for the same trick from Cora twice?
It doesn’t bother me that Regina fell for Cora’s trick in the past in this episode EXCEPT that it bothers me when I think of how easy and how fast Regina fell for Cora’s manipulation in S2
That’s what I mean. Regina falling for Cora’s trick in this episode is understandable, but then it makes her falling for Cora’s trick in season 2 dumb because Cora had already pulled that trick before and it didn’t end well so why would Regina think it would be any different the second time.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixWhy would Regina fall for the same trick from Cora twice?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixThat’s not how I interpreted that scene, so I went back and re-watched it. If you watch it again knowing now what Robin knows (i.e. “Marian” is pregnant), his reactions make a lot more sense. It seems like there is at least one very good reason why Robin reacted like he did, especially after Regina threatened to tear apart “Marian” (whom Robin believed was his pregnant wife). Up until that point, Robin was acting bewildered, like he was struggling to comprehend how the seemingly fantastic claims Regina was making could possibly be true. But then Regina seemed to cross a line by threatening the woman who was still masquerading as Robin’s pregnant wife.
This is how that scene unfolded to me:
Robin: What’s this about?
Regina: Marian. We have to leave before she gets back. She’s not who she says she is.
Robin: What? [looks flabbergasted]
Regina: She’s my sister, Zelena.
Robin: The wicked witch? [looks gobsmacked and confused like he struggling to grasp how that could be] But, she’s dead! We all saw that. [looks dumbfounded, because even in the EF, that’s a stretch of the imagination]
Regina: Somehow she tricked us and went back in time! Robin, she went back, and she killed Marian. She took her place to get back at me.
Robin: No [looks like he’s struggling to process it] This is madness. [He shakes his head in disbelief and says it’s madness, because if what Regina says is true, that would mean he’s been having non-consensual sex with his wife’s murderer and that she conceived his child]
Zelena [disguised as Marian]: Robin, what’s going on? And what is she doing here?
Regina: It’s over, Zelena. I told him everything.
Zelena [still disguised as Marian]: What’s she talking about? Who’s Zelena?
Robin: Regina, you’re scaring Marian.
Regina: Good! Where’s the magic? You must have brought something to make this glamour work. Where is it Zelena? Show me or I’ll rip you apart until I find it! [at this point Regina is yelling at Zelena and threatening her]
Robin: Regina, that’s enough! [Robin steps in front of “Marian”, whom he believes is his pregnant wife, to protect her and the baby from Regina’s threats] Look, I know that this is hard, for all of us, but this is the new reality. I’m with her! I’m with Marian.
Zelena: Actually, not exactly. [reveals herself as Zelena]
Robin: [literally jerks backwards in astonishment and horror]
Zelena: Hello, dear husband. [mocking jeer]
Robin: No! [he’s horrified by the consequences of this revelation as his brain catches up with what his eyes are witnessing (i.e. his wife’s murderer has been raping him and has conceived his child]
Regina: Come on, Robin. We have to get you and Roland out of here.
Robin: [stares frozen in disgust and horrific bewilderment at Zelena]
Regina: Robin, get Roland and let’s go!
Robin: [stands paralyzed, unable to go because of the horrific truth that his rapist is the mother of his child]
Zelena: I think he wants to stay. [in a tone of condescending mockery]
Regina: Robin, what are you doing? [in a tone of increasing concern]
Robin: [looks back and forth between Regina and Zelena like he wants to throw up as he realizes he’s been tricked and violated by Regina’s sister, who is now pregnant by him]
Regina: Get your son, and let’s go!
Robin: No, I can’t! [still paralyzed]
Regina: Yes, you can.
Robin: I can’t. I’m sorry. [looks dejected and defeated, as he turns his gaze back to Zelena] I can’t leave her here.
Regina: What?
Zelena: Do you want to tell her? [Robin stares at Zelena in disgust] Or should I? [Zelena gloats over Regina’s misery]
Regina: Tell me what? [awkward silence, like Robin doesn’t want to say it, because it’s too terrible to be true] Robin?
Robin: [still struggling to say it or believe it himself, because it’s hurting the woman he loves. He shakes his head] She’s pregnant!
Zelena: [has a gloating look of glee over Regina’s misery]
Regina: [looks just as paralyzed, horrified and dumbfounded as Robin did when he realized Zelena was carrying his child]Robin having a hard time believing Regina doesn’t seem so unreasonable or uncharacteristic to me, because of a couple of good reasons. First, the things Regina claimed are so fantastical, even for people well acquainted with magic, like Rumple. How could a spirit of someone everyone believed dead time-travel to the past and take the form of a person? Even by Enchanted Forest standards, that sounds really out there, since time-travel and resurrection are two of those “rules” of magic which are supposedly impossible to break (except they aren’t, as Zelena has proven).
Next, Robin has just been told that the woman he thought was his wife isn’t who she claimed to be. Robin’s rational brain is struggling to comprehend how the seemingly crazy things Regina claims could possibly be true. Plus, if what Regina says turns out to be true, that means horrific things must also be true (i.e. he’s been raped, and that the child Zelena is carrying is the product of rape, rather than the product of his love for Marian). Victims of rape don’t always act like one might expect them to; sometimes they even defend their rapists (i.e. like in Stockholm syndrome). Robin says it’s madness, perhaps as a form of denial or not wanting to believe he could’ve been so violated by his wife’s murderer. Instead, Robin’s rational brain jumps to the more “logical” explanation that it’s not true, and that’s it’s crazy talk to believe it. His rebuttal could be his coping mechanism, as a way of dealing with it, rather than facing the terrible truth.
Finally, Robin reacts the way he does when Regina threatens to tear apart “Marian” (whom he believes is pregnant, though Regina doesn’t know it yet). Robin physically shields the mother of his child, who at that point, his rational brain is still telling him is his wife. When pressed, his reaction is to try and protect his wife and child from a would-be threat (i.e. Regina raising her voice and threatening a pregnant woman). Would any rational brain conclude in the heat of the moment that a would-be attacker of a pregnant woman might actually be telling the truth? Not likely. His instinct to protect his child and mother of his child takes over. It’s an automatic human response known as fight-or-flight syndrome, and in this case, Robin’s choosing to fight if need be to protect a pregnant woman. It’s not until Zelena reveals her true identity that Robin’s rational brain seems to try and catch up with what his eyes are telling him.
Okay, just rewatched the scene, like you said with the knowledge that Robin knew “Marian” was pregnant and his actions do seem to make more sense. In fact, just after Zelena reveals himself, you see him glance down at her stomach. You’re right he’s definitely processing the horror.
The one line that still feels a little out of place though is the “Look, I know that this is hard, for all of us, but this is the new reality. I’m with her! I’m with Marian.”
I get Robin is trying to protect “Marian” and whatnot but it still feels like Robin thinks Regina is doing all this out of jealousy hence the “this is hard for all of us” “I’m with her! I’m with Marian”
It’ll be interesting to see if they actually have Robin acknowledge what’s been done to him or if they’ll just sweep it under the rug.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixHad a weird dream last night involving an evil Roland.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixWhile I’m not going to defend the poor way in which Robin’s character has been written, what you wrote about him comes across to me as victim blaming. Robin’s reaction was one of disbelief, but then again, the situation is almost beyond belief. Zelena was magically impersonating Robin’s deceased wife, and she is reportedly carrying his child. None of that is normal, even for someone from the Enchanted Forest. Robin’s reaction may not have been the reaction Regina had been hoping for, but Robin was certainly the victim of Zelena raping him for his seed. Pointing the finger at Robin for not knowing better isn’t helpful and perpetuates blaming victims of rape instead of the rapist. Even men can be victims of rape (something which isn’t really acknowledged in the wider culture or media). Regina herself is a rapist of Graham, so it seems like Regina has failed to understand that what Robin is experiencing now may be the equivalent of the type of post-traumatic shock that many rape victims experience. (And don’t count on A&E ever to acknowledge that both Graham and Robin were sexually victimized by Regina and Zelena, respectively).
Maybe Regina was hoping for a more immediate response of disgust from Robin in reaction to what Zelena did, but that is not necessarily how victims of sexual abuse react. Sometimes people who’ve been sexually abused actually defend their abusers. Robin not knowing how to properly react, and even perhaps refusing to believe the seemingly impossible that he could’ve been so duped, doesn’t seem so unreasonable. Robin even coming to the defense of his rapist, whom he believes is carrying his child, doesn’t sound so crazy when you read about reports of Stockholm Syndrome. Robin was tricked and violated in the worst possible way by the most manipulatively shrewd villain yet, and he believed this woman was his wife. Plus, Robin knew something Regina didn’t (i.e. the pregnancy, whether real or not). Even if Robin sensed something was off (which he did), he probably never in a million years suspected Marian was really Zelena. It probably just never occurred to him, and pointing the finger at him and saying he should’ve known better just comes across like blaming a rape victim for allowing himself or herself to be taken advantage of, when really, Zelena is the only one to blame.
I’m not blaming Robin for what Zelena did to him (I even said in the other thread that this would be an opportunity to explore the female on male rape issue which isn’t as recognised as male on female rape). The thing that bugged me about this scene was that Robin accuses Regina of lying in order to split him and “Marian” up. There is no reason for why Robin should think this given Regina’s actions in 4A. I can totally see why Robin would be confused, puzzled, bewildered because of the seeming absurdity of it all but to accuse Regina of lying as a means to break him and “Marian” up seems OOC for him. It’s like the effect of what Regina told him was less “What do you mean? What’s going on?” and more “Oh I get it, you’re jealous!”
I’m not Regina’s biggest fan right now but I just found Robin’s response to her quite patronising, as if she’s got nothing better to do with her time than try and break up Robin and Marian.
While Robin may not always listen to his code of honor, he does have one. He went against his better judgement when he committed what he believed was an extra-marital affair with Regina (which it turned out not to be), but he seems to have been very conflicted both before and after having sex with Regina. I think Robin really would’ve committed to Regina had it not been for “Marian” nearly dying from the Snow Queen’s curse. (If Robin hadn’t gone with “Marian” people would’ve decried Robin as a wife-killer, so it was a no-win situation). Yet, just because he violated his code before does not mean he would be willing to do so when it comes to fate of one of his children. He was not willing to let “Marian” die, and he certainly wouldn’t want his unborn child to suffer. His code matters now more than ever, because Robin believes Zelena is carrying HIS CHILD, who is an innocent here. I don’t think Robin was choosing Zelena over Regina so much as he was putting his child first (something a good parent should do). Robin believes that he owes it to his child not to abandon him or her, no matter the chilling circumstances surrounding the conception. The only way to ensure his unborn child survives is to take care of Zelena until she gives birth. So Robin not immediately abandoning the mother of his child makes sense when one realizes Robin is not the sort of man to abandon his child, which is exactly what Zelena was counting on. Robin may not make great decisions when it comes to choosing a partner, but he is a good father to Roland, and now, this second (real?) child.
Whilst I agree that Robin wouldn’t leave his unborn child, it was his reaction towards Regina that bugged. We’ll have to see how this progresses next episode.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixOn the rape issue. I don’t see it like that at all. People impersonate others all the time in the real world. Identity theft is a very real problem. Just because people aren’t magically transformed on the exterior, they still present themselves as someone they aren’t to their spouses, partners, girlfriends/boyfriends. How many fugitives and scam artists at large have been apprehended without their loved ones truly knowing who they really are? I’ve never heard of them being charged with rape. Robin was still a consenting adult and he was never physically forced into anything. He was duped, not raped.
I disagree, I think it is rape rather than identity theft. Imagine if Charming’s identical twin brother was still alive and in Storybrooke. Snow is married to Charming and would never sleep with James. Snow gets drunk one night, not blind drunk but impaired drunk. Charming is busy and can’t take her home but asks James to escort Snow home. When they get there, in her drunken state, Snow mistakes James for Charming. James doesn’t correct her and chooses to have sex with Snow under the pretense that he is Charming.
To me, that’s rape. Snow would never choose to sleep with James of her own free will. Likewise, Robin would never sleep with Zelena of his own free will.
Even #OutlawQueen Fans….We’re confused now on the writing of Robin’s character because that scene was sooooo OOC for Robin Hood, but lately on the show, a lot of people have been OOC, but I just don’t think Robin would dismiss Regina as he did.
But according to Adam Horowitz…we’re perceiving all of this wrong, and that we should wait until the next episode. My hope and expectations are very low, but we’ll see.
We’ll see. My main issue with Robin in that scene isn’t that he refuses to leave his unborn child but that he accuses Regina of lying all to split him and “Marian” up. There is no reason why he should think Regina is lying. He should be confused, bewildered, puzzled, sure but not flat out accuse Regina.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBut really, if Robin wasn’t able to pick up on the fact that something is seriously off with “Marian”
Robin did pick up that something was off with “Marian” when she told him to let Gold die in Heart of Gold. Regina telling him that Marian was really Zelena should’ve made him think of that and realise Regina was telling the truth. At the very least, Robin should’ve been confused and puzzled by what Regina was telling him, not accusing her of lying and trying to break him and “Marian” up. Regina’s actions in 4A do not add up with what Robin is accusing her of. Robin just comes across as an idiot.
Is there any good way to resolve this?
No. Even if Zelena was lying and the pregnancy was none existent, it’s Robin’s behaviour that compounds the situation.
In 4A, Robin used his “code of honour” as a reason for not leaving Marian yet the moment Marian was freezing to death, Robin started pursuing Regina despite her protest and he even threw out his code so he could have crypt-sex with her.
In 4B, Regina shows up telling him that Zelarian isn’t really Marian but Zelena and that he needs to grab Roland and come with her to be safe, so Robin accuses her of lying and being jealous and trying to split him and “Marian” up and his code of honour prevents him from leaving Zelena because of the pregnancy.
Had Robin’s “code of honour” been consistently applied throughout his time on the show then you could see why he he’d be reluctant to leave because of the baby. However, Robin has been shown to throw out his code the moment it suits him not to have it, so why can he not do that now?
Option B: RH stays with Zelena because “baby.” That’s…an interesting (not really the word I want to use…) choice. His code and honor dictates that he has to stand by the woman who, basically, raped him and is carrying his child that she fully intended to use as a means to get him to stay with her. Again…interesting choice.
See above. Robin throws out his code when it suits him not to have it. Example: Crypt-sex with Regina whilst his wife was freezing to death. Why does it matter to him so much right now? Sometimes I actually wonder if he wants to commit to Regina. He wants all the sexy fun times with her but when it actually comes to leaving someone to be with her, he uses his code as an excuse not to.
Option C: If somehow the Villains do win, but then the heroes manage to fix “the thing” the Villains do, does that mean that Zelena’s baby goes POOF because the wrongs have been righted by the heroes? And does that mean that the show, basically, magically aborted a fetus?
I don’t think this option would go down well with the audience at all. When the solution to this OQ obstacle is “Let’s just kill off the baby. Ta da, problem solved.” It’s also pressing on a hot button issue. Abortion shouldn’t be seen as an easy-fix solution to the problem, it’s essentially killing Neal to resolve the CSF triangle again but worse.
Option D: RH chooses Regina, but Zelena is allowed to live and have her baby with the understanding that RH and Regina will raise the child (because I’m sure that won’t cause Zelena to become even more Green). Because honestly, do we want Zelena raising this kid? Or does she get temporary visitation?
I think this would be a horrible solution. It’s essentially “your baby or your life”. OQ can’t be even considered heroes if they say to a mother “give us your baby which we’ll raise as our own and it won’t know who you are and you can live. If you don’t we’ll kill you”. Regardless of what Zelena’s done, the baby is still hers and look what happened last time a baby was taken away from their villain mother by the “heroes”. The Lily story is basically why this option is not a good idea.
If the pregnancy is fake, will Zelena steal a baby when it comes time to deliver?
I think if the pregnancy is fake, Zelena will fake a miscarriage then guilt-trip Robin with a “This is your fault, you wanted this!” because why wouldn’t the writers reduce what is a genuinely traumatising experience into an evil scheme for the sake of plot?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felixwhile Regina and Robin struggle to cope with the implications of Zelena’s pregnancy.
This episode will be the deciding factor on whether OQ can limp on or whether it will truly be utterly sunk in the fans eyes (but still sail in the writers eyes).
It would also be an opportunity to explore the issue of female on male rape which is less recognised than male on female rape.
The thing with Robin is, he’s not consistently written. He harps on about his “code of honour” which he hides behind when he is faced with a difficult decision yet he willingly drops it when it suits him (crypt-sex). He constantly flip flops, constantly whines on about his hypocritical code, and constantly does the opposite of what other characters tell him to do. For example:
Regina: You should be with Marian.
Robin: But Regina, I want yoooooooouuuuuu.Rumple: Go be with Regina. (Not his exact words but basically what he said)
Robin: Marian, I want yoooooooouuuuu.Regina: Robin! Come with me if you want to live!
Robin: Regina, why you being so jealous?
Regina: Didn’t you hear me? Marian is dead, my insane sister has been pretending to be her all along. We have magic, people pretending to be other people is an actual thing, my mother was very fond of it. Now grab your coat and move!
Robin: Regina why you lie? Stop being jealous!All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixEmma: He’s…he’s dead. (Turns to glare at Zelena) Because of her.
GAH the more I think about this non-reaction she had, the angrier I get about it. This is (one of) the fricking problem with this show, they totally ignore moments that should cause an emotional reaction in someone.
If they don’t have Emma say something about Neal during this whole shebang, I am going to be pretty irate.
I agree. The whole episode was screaming for a mention of Neal.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix
