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And I think Season 4 Henry has evolved quite a lot since Season 2 since his whole Neverland adventure…
I hated season 2 Henry. He was such a whiny self-entitled brat. He annoyed me so much that when he tried to blow up magic with the dynamite, I was rooting for the dynamite. The way he toyed with Regina was awful too. Neverland was such a wasted opportunity for showing Henry actually doing something to try and help himself instead of being a gullible fool who just sat around waiting to be rescued only to then screw it up by believing Pan when he’d been doubting him only one episode before.
Season 4 Henry is more tolerable but he is effectively a walking talking plot device. What purpose did he serve in the shop scene in 311 with Belle other than to knock stuff off shelves so Belle could find the gauntlet and leave again. Henry and Emma didn’t actually speak to each other in 4A until about four episodes in.
Will was right about Hook using Henry to get in with Emma. In 3B, Hook was constantly babysitting Henry at Emma’s request. Since CS have officially been together, Hook has spent zero time with Henry and Henry even admitted he didn’t like Hook and Hook didn’t give a damn.
Henry’s screentime now is primarily with Regina rather than Emma….because heaven forbid he stand in the way of CS.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI agree.
The thing with Rumple in the show at the moment isn’t that he doesn’t have sympathetic motivation for what he’s doing, it’s that the show isn’t showing these motivations. Neal’s death and Rumple’s treatment at the hands of Zelena are the two main reasons for why Rumple would be getting antsy about being under the dagger’s control but the show seems to be trying to ignore Neal’s character and pretend he never existed. The show makes it seem like Rumple is all about the power, when the truth is he’s not, he fears what will happen if he doesn’t have the power.
Belle freaking out about the gauntlet itself never made any sense to me. Firstly, it wasn’t hidden or concealed away, it was lying on a shelf gathering dust so it wasn’t like Rumple was trying to hide it from her. Secondly, Rumple could have got the gauntlet back at any point, through a deal or what have you, why did Belle assume that once it was gone that would be it? Lastly and most importantly, the gauntlet is supposed to lead to a person’s weakness. Like you said, that is normally someone’s loved one but not always. Rumple himself said in 3A that Belle made him “stronger”, Belle gives Rumple strength so there is no reason why the gauntlet would’ve pointed to her.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixRG suggested I post this here so as not to upset the CSers.
Are Hook and Emma basically Edward Cullen and Bella Swan from Twilight but with more personality?
I’ve never read the Twilight books and only had the misfortune to see the first movie, but the gist with them is that their relationship is treated as this romance of the ages by the author and the Twihards when in reality it’s pretty horrifying and unhealthy.
There are certain superficial similarities between the two couples, mainly Emma and Bella share the same surname, and the “love triangle” between Edward/Bella/Jacob and Hook/Emma/Neal split their respective fandoms forever. However, the treatment of CS and the treatment of Bella/Edward by their “authors” seem similar too.
In the last episode “Best laid Plans”, I found Hook’s reaction to Emma’s friendship with August to be a bit of a “red flag” especially the part where Hook gave his blessing/permission for Emma to continue her friendship with August. This is troubling for two reasons:
1. It implies that Hook doesn’t trust Emma to be just friends with a guy without something more going on.
2. It implies that Emma is only allowed to be friends with a guy if Hook gives her his permission.Emma shouldn’t have to justify herself and her friendships to anyone, especially Hook when she’s been okay with his secret keeping (which in itself is eyebrow raising especially since relationships are supposed to be built on trust). How much of Hook’s secret keeping has actually caused more problems than if he’d been honest about why certain people (for example Ursula)are hateful of him. At the very least, being open about his past gives everyone a heads up about possible future threats. At best it seems to suggest that Hook doesn’t trust Emma to stay with him after finding out what he’s done in the past. At worst, it suggests that Emma doesn’t want to know what Hook has done in the past as it would skewer the “dashing pirate gentleman” perception she has of him and that is more important to her than the truth.
Hook’s actions towards Emma in season 2 aren’t troubling as such until season 3 where this great “love” he has for her is revealed which then makes his season 2 actions towards her retroactively troubling and somewhat diminishes his original motivations. JMo and Colin have chemistry, that’s undeniable, in fact from their scenes in Tallahassee I can see why people would ship the two character together. However, the way the pairing has been written as a pairing so far, it seems like the chemistry between the two actors and the want of the fans to have the two characters together has overridden any actual proper storytelling to get these two characters together in a naturally flowing way so they’ve just been stuck together to keep fans happy.
In season 2, Hook was purely focussed on getting his revenge on Rumple for Milah. He flirted with Emma, but he tried flirting with every other woman that crossed his path too, so this was just Hook being Hook. He betrayed Emma and left her in Rumple’s cell but she’d betrayed him first and Cora was his way to Rumple so it makes sense that he would keep Cora onside over Emma. When Cora was defeated, Hook sided with GOAT still intent on getting revenge against Rumple, even though he changed his mind afterwards. Hook was going to escape Storybrooke before it was destroyed, but changed his mind at the memory of Baelfire and Emma’s offer to be a part of something. He came back, not realising the town had already been saved, and instead offered his ship and services to Emma to help her save Henry. He was being “a part of something”. So far, so good and perhaps even a mutual friendship could form between Emma and Hook.
In 3A, thinks were going well for CS. They were working together, they were socialising, they were helping each other, it seemed like a solid foundation to build a friendship on which could then develop into something more. Then the CS kiss happened. Hook demands a kiss from Emma as thanks for saving Charming. Aside from the morally dubiousness aspect of “Hook demands a kiss from Emma as thanks for saving Charming”, it could be argued that Hook was just taking his flirty game with Emma to the next level and Emma gave him more than he bargained for. Hook even told the Nevengers about Neal as it was the right thing to do even though Pan implied that Neal would stand in the way of Hook’s crush of Emma. Hook’s still thinking about the kiss so it’s clear that he realises he likes Emma as more than just a friend. So far so good. Then came the echo cave scene.
In the echo caves, Hook admits that he’s moved on from Milah because of the kiss. This is where the trouble starts in the writing of CS and makes Hook’s season 2 actions retroactively troubling. A person doesn’t just “move on” at the drop of a hat. Either Hook was having these feelings for Emma before the kiss, and considering 3A follows on straight after season 2 timewise, it puts his season 2 actions towards Emma in a whole new light. Or, Hook has suddenly shifted his attention, and clearly obsession, from avenging Milah onto winning Emma’s affections. Neither prospect is particularly healthy and Hook’s focus is completely on Emma to the point of tunnel vision.
Dark Hollow is a bad episode for both Hook and Neal as they fight over Emma but Neal comes out of it better than Hook by the end. In this episode:
Emma and Neal are planning the trip to Dark Hollow so Hook decides to tag along too because he doesn’t want Emma and Neal to be alone together.
Hook “accidentally” tells Neal about the CS kiss. This is Hook telling Neal to “back off” from Emma.
Hook then reiterates the “back off” threat to Neal by telling Neal he gave Emma Neal’s cutlass to “remember you by” which causes Neal to get a bit cranky. It might seem like an over-reaction from Neal to a “kind gesture” by Hook but actually Neal himself could see what Hook was doing- making a point that Neal’s relationship with Emma is over and in the past.
Hook gives Emma his “WHEN I win your heart and I WILL win it” speech, and tells Emma that she will have to choose between him and Neal.
Hook and Neal fight over the lighter and nearly get themselves killed.
When Emma berates them both, Hook petulantly argues back that they were fighting over her.
When Emma tells them both that Henry is the only love she has room for in her life, Hook sulks for the rest of the episode whereas Neal accepts Emma’s decision.Hook’s behaviour regarding Emma in Dark Hollow becomes intense. He tells Emma he “will” win her heart, he tells her that she has to choose between him and Neal, whilst at the same time, behind Emma’s back, tells his love rival to back off from Emma. Emma even tells him “it’s not a contest” to which Hook replies “isn’t it?” which implies that Hook very much sees it as a contest and by telling Neal to back off is actually trying to skew the contest in his own favour. Hook sees Emma as a prize to be won and he wants to win her.
In 310 “The new Neverland” Hook sidles up to Neal in the diner and the conversation is basically him telling Neal that Neal can have first crack at Emma but when it all goes wrong Hook will swoop in and pick up the pieces because Hook is in it for the “long haul”. Hook then throws himself at Tinkerbell and insinuates that he and Tinkerbell have got something going on in order to make Emma jealous. Hook’s actions are very disconcerting here:
1. He’s trying to set Emma up to have her heart broken again so he can swoop in and play the caring knight in shining armour role.
2. He’s willing to use Tinkerbell, not only as a distraction for himself, but as a tool to make Emma jealous.At this point, Hook can easily be described as a jealous, obsessive game player who won’t take no for an answer.
In 311, “Going home” Tinkerbell is very pro-CS. Much like in 3B where she’s pro-OQ. It seems the writers want CS to be accepted by the audience as a “romance of the ages” by having a character literally push that idea forwards despites Hook’s previous dubious actions. At the end of 311, they have Hook try TLK on Emma (in 3B she has him arrested for assault because of this). Whilst the idea itself isn’t unheard of within the show (Both Rumple and Charming tried it on Belle and Snow respectively when they lost their memories), why would Hook think it would work when he and Emma aren’t even in a relationship at this point in the game?
3B gets complicated. I actually liked Hook in 3B when I watched it. He wasn’t trying to push his romantic intentions on Emma in 3B (at least not like he was in 3A), he didn’t tell Emma about the JR (which would’ve seemed like an instant win), the only screw up he made seemed to be when he tried to take Henry without Emma’s permission though it was to save him from Zelena. All in all, it seemed like Hook had turned a corner….until you look back and realise Hook had a whole year without the object of his obsession to pursue.
Hook ditched the rest of the Storybrookers as soon as he could because working with them didn’t serve him in any way. Emma wouldn’t be there to see what a good little team player he was, so why bother? Hook still had Emma on the brain so did the whole year without her make him believe in his fantasy that he and Emma were actually in love hence why he tried TLK on her because “absence makes the heart grow fonder” or in his case “absence makes the obsession grow stronger”?
After Emma found out Walsh was a flying monkey, Hook stuck to her like glue. Was he really just trying to be a good friend, or was he actually playing the “caring knight in shining armour” role that he anticipated in playing over a Neal/Emma break-up. Walsh was the only guy Emma had let into her heart since Neal, she was actually contemplating marrying him and he was the only guy she’d liked enough to let Henry meet. Emma would actually be in an emotionally vulnerable state and Hook was constantly there watching. Emma gets a double emotional whammy with Neal’s death and Hook was there. Whilst having your friends and family around you during difficult times is helpful, is the guy who has a romantic obsession with you really the best choice? Not to mention that Neal’s death meant Emma didn’t actually choose between Neal and Hook, Hook “won” by default which put the whole “when I win” speech in a new unflattering light.
It’s not long between Neal’s death and the CS kiss in the finale. We haven’t seen Emma (or anyone really) grieve for Neal (Rumple spent his grieving period plotting to avenge Neal). Is it possible that Emma doesn’t want to think of it or even acknowledge her pain over Neal so she’s willing to throw herself into a relationship with Hook so she doesn’t have to deal with her pain? Emma went through a lot of emotional trauma in 3B including thinking she’d just watched her mother get burnt alive. Hook made her feel something that wasn’t pain, he made her laugh, made her smile, comforted her, etc. As a friend, that is a solid foundation. As a guy romantically obsessed with her, were Hook’s intentions truly noble or did he want to make Emma feel good about herself so that she would rely on him to make her feel those positive feelings. If a woman/guy you fancied came up to you, having gone through what Emma did, and said they wanted to start a relationship with you, would you jump at the chance or would you want to give them some time to deal with their issues before starting a relationship?
Hook and Henry is another cloudy subject. Did Hook actually care about Henry or did he just see him as a way to get to Emma as pointed out by Will in 4A? When Hook tried to shuttle Henry out of town, why couldn’t he have told Charming or Emma about his plan (don’t tell Snow any important secrets) so that they wouldn’t worry about Henry? Was Hook just using the Henry and Zelena situation to play at being the big hero? In 4A under the shattered sight spell, when Henry admits to never having liked Hook, Hook doesn’t give a damn about Henry’s feelings, he only cares about the fact Emma said they were “together”. Has Hook been using Henry as a pawn to get to Emma the entire time?
In 4A, Hook’s behaviour spirals downhill again and the writing of CS takes a turn for the worst. First Hook antagonises Rumple by blackmailing him and casually threatening Belle all so he could get his hand back. If Hook really cared about Belle, he’s have told her what Rumple was up to, not try and use her as leverage over Rumple. Second, Hook wants his hand back in case Emma wants him to “hold her”. 1. Emma’s not shown any aversion to Hook’s hook before so why is he so bothered by it now? 2. “Hold her” seems to be a euphemism for sex (which would explain why Hook might be self-conscious about the hook but he’s slept with other women before with the hook so see point 1) Why is Hook assuming his date with Emma could lead to sex? It could but still, he shouldn’t assume it could. On the CS writing side, Emma’s date dress. It is such an unEmma dress that it could suggest that Emma is changing her personality to please Hook. Also Hook is keeping secrets but Emma’s not bothered by what the secrets are, even when those secrets come back to bite them in present day? Also when Emma expresses worry over the Snow Queen, Hook seems to dismiss her concerns in a “don’t worry your pretty little head about it” manner.
Finally Hook and Will. I’ve only just made this connection actually but it does make me wonder. In 4A Hook had it in for Will, seemingly for no other reason that Will caused a waiter to spill water on Emma’s dress. Hook beat up Will because of his “hand” though whether the hand was cursed or not is still open to debate. But what Hook said in 4B about Emma being “partial to men in leather jackets” made me think. Will wears a leather jacket. From 4A onwards, Hook seems to be insecure about himself and Emma. Was Hook seeing Will as another potential rival? (ScarlettSwan would be an interesting pairing) With Will currently paired up with Belle, Hook doesn’t feel the need to worry about him right now since he’s out of the equation. However, with Rumple back in town, Hook might be concerned that not only could ScarlettBeauty break up but Rumple could cause more trouble for him.
In conclusion, are the writers trying to write CS as this epitome of true love despite evidence to the contrary like Twilight did with Bella and Edward, or are these less than savoury incidents part of an underlying on-going story that has yet to be revealed? If it is the former, why include the incidents which contradict that notion? If it is the latter, why is CS being given a “love of the ages” kind of treatment?
Thoughts?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI think it comes more from a place of shock and horror….everyone expected so much from Snowing, that it wouldn’t even cross anyone’s minds that they would be capable of committing such a heinous act! I’ve been saying it since Season 1, so it didn’t really come as too much of a shock
I think you’re right. The thing with Snowing though is that Charming is the follower whilst Snow is the leader. Charming is more into letting the dice fall where they may and crossing that bridge when they get to it, whereas Snow is more high strung but includes Charming in the blame for her past mistakes.
and I think it’s mainly Hook that gets away scot-free nowadays….Regina actually worked a very long time to establish her redemption….she cannot change the past nor what she did, she can only move on and make better choices.
I agree with this. Regina was working hard for her redemption in 3A but then it kind of got fast tracked and made about Robin in 3B.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixGiven the list of truly evil things Regina, Rumple, and Hook have done, I’m surprised that the Charmings are being given much harsher treatment, both by Emma and “the show” in general.
I agree to an extent. 1. I think the show started treating Rumple harshly from about 3B onwards ie losing his son to death then making him go full villain in 4A and continuing that in 4B whilst Hook and Regina received their free passes to redemption. 2. The idea that Snowing were just going to take another persons offspring, offload their child’s darkness into said offspring and then just hand the offspring back is kind of horrifying all on it’s own. Snowing’s complete disregard for Mal’s offspring just because it might not be human is also cruel. It seems out of character that Season 1 Snowing would consciously do something that terrible for their own selfish reasons. Snow from season 3 onwards, you can believe would be that selfish.
It’s not so much that Snowing are being treated “harsher”, I think anyone would be horrified to hear what Snowing did so Emma’s reaction to them is justified, it’s that Regina and Hook are getting away scot-free for their past misdeeds and not being called out on it by anyone which makes it unfair that certain characters have to deal with the consequences of their actions whilst certain others don’t.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNow, why did Pan’s body disappear along with him, I’ve no idea.
Perhaps Pan’s body aged into dust? When Rumple first stabbed Pan, Pan’s youth magic wore off and he became Malcolm? What’s to say Malcolm didn’t continue to age as he became mortal and would be at least over 100 years old? The bright gold light could have covered Malcolm’s rapid aging in order to keep the show “family-friendly” but think rapid aging as in Gothel from Tangled.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixDidn’t Regina cast the dark curse out loud? she kind of said the ingredients as she threw them in the fire? (Also Panlix were way more efficient in casting the dark curse- they got the curse and collected all the ingredients and were ready to cast it in “less than a day”, it took Regina nearly 9 months to cast her curse.)
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixWhich makes me wonder, theoretically speaking, what would happen to the whole DO lineage/DO curse if any given DO stabbed themselves with the dagger? I’m sure this has been asked before, but it seems like a bit of a hole in OUAT’s world building. If being DO is such a lousy job, why hasn’t anyone put an end to it? I mean…Zoso essentially committed suicide by Rumple, so it’s not the whole morality of taking one’s life that’s at stake here.
I don’t think Dark Ones can self terminate. The DO is immortal unless stabbed by the dagger in which case the curse is then transferred to the person who did the stabbing. However, if the DO tries to stab themselves, the curse is flowing out of them only to flow back into them thus continuing the cycle.
When Rumple stabbed himself through Pan, he was only sent to the “vault of the Dark One” which isn’t actually proper death but more like stuck in limbo waiting to be released.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixThe Author has some tragic back story where some girl broke his heart and now, he likes to mess up everyone’s happy endings for kicks and just because he can.
That sounds like the emperor alien out of American Dad that Roger cheated on so he wanted the rest of his people to believe there was no such thing as true love.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIt’s not difficult to do a flash forward. I remember Adam and Eddy were asked how they were going to solve Jared growing up so fast at the end of 3A and they said that they had a plan in place and look what happened, we flash forward a year later. If they really need Roland for a major storyline (not likely), they can always do the same thing with him.
Rumple’s dagger wave turns Roland into a pre teen for a few episodes….recast until Raphael is available again.
They could always have Roland (and Henry) fall victim to the Sanderson sisters who suck the lives out of children and which causes them to age so the witches can stay young. If Roland and Henry got rescued before the witches could completely suck the lives out of them, then you have an older Roland and Henry looks wise that makes sense storywise.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix
