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Rumple has so much potential if the writers really did play with the addiction angle but now it seems they’re only interested in making him a villain just because instead of their original premise of exploring WHY the villains are the way they are.
5A Emma is the worst Emma of them all. Does nobody care about Belle as an actual human being at all? They’re all aware that Rumple is hiding things from her, but rather than telling her, they’re using her as leverage against Rumple. Yet they’re all there to “comfort” and “help” Belle when she does find out what Rumple’s been up to and gets upset about it. It’s hypocritical.
It’s getting harder more and more to root for the supposed “heroes”.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixSo Emma isn’t lonely because everyone needs a community, it’s because she has Walls™ around her soft and vulnerable ego, which our dashing rogue must break through in order to rescue the damsel from the fortress of her own making,
Yes. And this is what we mean when we talk about how Emma isn’t a strong woman anymore. It’s not saying that having a boyfriend means losing your “strong woman” characteristic. It’s that your entire being and story center around him. That without him you cannot be more than what you already are–and of course, what you are is fragile, lonely, and wounded in some way.
Sweet Oz, this!
I think at the end of the day, we all wonder….had it not been for Emma Swan, what could Hook contribute to the storyline had he not been her so called “true love”…what is his purpose besides being the love interest?
To show that even Adam and Eddy had no idea, they took what should have been Emma’s solo storyline and gave it to Hook at the last second, showing that in order to give him some form of relevance besides love interest, they have to steal their original main character’s plots and give it to him. And they did it in such an icky way, I couldn’t help but wince from episodes nine through eleven. I still can’t wrap my head around the fact he felt no Dark One symptoms that entire time!
Don’t get me wrong, I felt the same way about Robin Hood. Had he not been Regina’s soul mate, what could he contribute to the storyline otherwise than being the love interest? And once again…they did it in such an icky way, having him impregnate Zelena to now have to be the father to a child that he had conceived out of the most vile way possible. So now although he still has a storyline besides being Regina’s soul mate, it’s so icky that we squirm while watching it.
Another example of Adam and Eddy trying to make Hook relevant at the expense of other characters are Snowing….the ENTIRE summer, they hyped Snow White and David to be at the frontlines in saving their daughter. “I will not lose my daughter to darkness.” Sorry to break it to you Ginny sweetie, but ABC & the show runners had you and Josh running around in circles, complaining and whining the entire trip in Camelot, and the one second you two had where you had cornered Arthur was snatched away because of some magic dust and then you were back to doing nothing to save Emma from being the Dark One. Every scene in Camelot seemed to be either CaptainSwan or SwanQueen baiting.
I guess my main frustration with Hook besides him being the most probable reason Neal was really killed off, is that I no longer see any purpose for him besides being Emma’s “true love”. And geez luis Adam and Eddy, if you’re gonna shove CaptainSwan down our throats, at least give us a sedative by making Hook both relevant and likable.
100% This is so true!
What plot contribution do you get with Hook and Robin when Emma and Regina are out of the equation?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixTimelinewise, Cora would’ve met Leopold, had Zelena and given her up, then about a year/ a year and 3 months after Zelena’s birth would’ve met Henry Sr, had Regina thus making Zelena 2 years older.
Would definitely explain why Eva was still a witch to young Cora because it had only been a year since Eva told Leopold about Cora and the gardner thus ruining Cora’s life. Eva would’ve taken great pleasure in seeing what Cora had become and how she had fallen so far.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI agree with Keb. Fear has been a driving force in Rumple’s life, fear that he’s unlovable. It started with Malcolm casting him out of Malcolm, it continued with Milah, even Baelfire started to pull away from him. Even though that was to do with Rumple’s actions, Rumple probably took it as a rejection of himself rather than his actions. Belle came along and it has taken Rumple so long to actually believe he is worthy of love even up to the end of 4B, he still questions whether he is worthy of love. This isn’t because Rumple chooses to be a coward, it’s because of past traumas where he’s been rejected by people who are supposed to love him: his father, his wife, his son. It’s more complicated in regards to Baelfire but I think Rumple is trapped in a vicious cycle. He fears that the people he loves are going to reject him so he resorts to underhanded tactics so they don’t see the “real” him but because of his actions, the people he loves reject him for his actions. It just goes on and on. Rumple doesn’t deliberately go out of his way to go behind Belle’s back (at least he didn’t in S1-3B) but he has a such deep-seated fear as a result of his past traumas but the cycle just keeps reinforcing itself. He acts to prevent rejection but he is rejected because of how he acts.
Also it’s unclear how much influence the dark one has over it’s host. This is where there is inconsistent writing with Rumple. We were led to believe that Rumple’s actions from 4A onwards were all his own whereas Hook’s turn as the dark one was all the dark one’s doing. It can’t be both. Either Hook had control over his actions, knew what he was doing and still did it anyway or Rumple was not in fully in control in 4A which would explain why he was so gung ho to get his plan complete.
Actually there is two inconsistencies with Hook:
1. Hook as the dark one vs Rumple as the dark one.
2. Hook being heart controlled vs Graham being heart controlled.A&E seem to be going out of their way to absolve Hook of any blame for what happens, preferring to pin it all on Rumple. If you use the excuse that Rumple learned to control the dark one persona over time hence why he’s not so homicidal as Hook because Hook being a new dark one had no control, then theoretically Rumple can’t be held accountable for the murders of Hordor and company, the mute maid, snail guy because at that point in time he had no control. A&E like to peddle that Rumple is responsible for his own actions as the dark one but they don’t seem to want to extend the same logic towards Hook.
Hook being heart controlled is also another inconsistency. We’ve seen with Graham that, unless Regina was physically holding his heart to control him, then he had free will which ended up getting him killed when he used his free will to choose Emma over Regina. With Hook, A&E like to pretend that Hook had no control at all since Rumple had his heart but this is just not true. In fact, the one time Rumple was actively controlling Hook, Hook still managed to grab Emma’s hand of his own free will to let her know something was wrong. If he could do that when he was actively being controlled, why didn’t he put up more of a fight when Rumple had his heart but wasn’t actively controlling it? Rumple couldn’t crush his heart until the time was right so it’s not like he was using that as a threat to get Hook to do what he wanted, in fact Rumple was very open about the fact that he was going to crush Hook’s heart anyway. Nothing Hook did would’ve made a difference so why didn’t Hook cause Rumple more trouble even if it led to Rumple actively controlling him more often in which case Hook’s actions in 4A wouldn’t have been his fault as much.
I think Hook is a creator’s pet which is why they’ve thrown Rumple under a bus in order to make Hook look less disingenuous than he actually is.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI do not buy that Hook was not in control. Emma and Rumpel were in control and completely at fault for their actions. How can it not be Hook’s fault for releasing evil dark ones on the world and yet be Emma’s fault for not letting Hook die? Either everything is not your fault because you are the dark one or everything is your fault. Emma was the dark one too. Emma clearly could decide one way or the other even if it was harder, so so could Hook.
I completely agree 100% with this. It’s one of the things that has annoyed me about 5A. Either Hook has to be held accountable for his actions as the dark one or Rumple should get a free pass for his actions as the dark one. It’s hypocritical writing, you can’t condemn one character whilst allowing another character to get off scot-free when they were both under the same influence.
I am sorry, but no. Rumpel taught Regina and Cora how to take a heart so they would kill. It is not because they might kill. He gave them a gun, taught them how to use it, then discussed how and who to kill with it. He is responsible for doing that and therefore partially responsible for those kills.
I don’t really want to go into Rumpel, but for me nothing has changed about his character. The only difference is that in Season 5 he said everything that i have always thought about his character. His character is a coward. He did wrong things out of fear even before he became the dark one and certainly since. Those actions have seriously harmed his family. He did those things because he wanted personal power. He became the dark one because he wanted power. He is still the dark one because he still wants power. Nothing is different between Rumpel now, in my opinion, and Rumpel in Season 1. He is exactly as i have always thought he was.
I disagree. Firstly in regards to Regina and Cora, Rumple may have loaded the gun and aimed it but at the end of the day, Regina and Cora were the ones who pulled the trigger so ultimately they have to take responsibility for their actions.
Rumple from S1-3B had his reasons for doing what he did. He was a morally grey character, he did the wrong things for the right reasons but he does regret it as implied by a scene between him and Snow White after Snow had killed Cora. It was only around 4A when Rumple suddenly became “for the evilz” and it was a considerable difference. Rumple wanting to “cleave” himself from the control of the dagger is understandable considering what he went through in 3B. However, for some unknown reason, the writers didn’t use that to explain Rumple’s motivation, it was all about the “power and the evilz” and that has never been Rumple’s character. He was never that straightforward.
I think the writers chose to vilify Rumple in order to make Hook look more heroic than he actually is. It’s all an illusion, you put a black spot on a white background, it sticks out like a sore thumb, put it on a dark background, it’s not so noticeable. In other words, Hooks actions against S1-3 Rumple make Hook look bad. Against S4 Rumple, Hook doesn’t look so bad as Rumple is worse.
Basically the writers took a complex layered character like Rumple and turned him into a moustache twirling cardboard villain in order to make Hook look better by comparison. Hook is not a hero in his own right, he is made to look like a hero because other characters are worse.
Hook not being in control is nonesense. If he couldn’t resist the darkness, then it should have been from the beginning of the season. It wasn’t, he was able to do what he wanted, the darkness didn’t affect him until episode 10, meaning the darkness was not in control. Not remembering that you are the dark one doesn’t mean that the affect wouldn’t be shown. If someone is sick and doesn’t know that, it doesn’t mean that the sickness won’t show its symptoms.
Agreed. This all goes back to the hypocritical writing. Either Hook was in control the whole time which means he has to be held accountable for his actions or, because Hook “didn’t know what he was doing”, Rumple should be given a free pass for his actions eg 4A onwards because he was under the influence of the dark one too and therefor “didn’t know what he was doing”.
An important part of fictional writing and world building is to set rules and constraints and stick to them. In this case, being the dark one means you either have full control or you don’t over your actions. You can’t have dark one A have control and dark one B doesn’t. It’s either one or the other otherwise it becomes inconsistent.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix@darkonedearie, As RG stated a general rule of television is “show, don’t tell”. Hook started as a villain so he did bad things, that’s all fine and dandy because, as a villain, Hook’s not meant to be likeable. His actions in season 2 support this such as his treatment of Belle.
However, villains can sometimes be charismatic to the point that sometimes you can’t help but like them because they are so enjoyable to watch whether it be through a wicked sense of humour or such a nuanced performance. With every villain character there is a “moral event horizon”. Basically it’s how far can a villain go before they become too unlikeable. If you want to redeem your villain, you absolutely have to make sure they don’t pass the moral event horizon, and if they do and you still want to redeem them then you have to work really hard to SHOW the redemption in order to make the audience believe that it is genuine. Even then, the audience may not forgive the character for their past actions.
IMO Once has failed completely in that regard with Hook. They’ve had him cross that moral event horizon but rather than showing us him trying to redeem himself, rather than making us believe he genuinely wants to atone for his past mistakes, they’re just telling us he’s redeemed and expecting us to accept it. They seem to think and hope that if they don’t mention Hook’s past misdeeds then the audience will forget about them. The thing is though they keep showing Hook doing bad things.
I have tried to like Hook since his introduction and every season when I reach the point of thinking maybe he’s not so bad, he then goes and completely screws it up.
The only episode I genuinely did like Hook was Tallahassee when he and Emma climbed the beanstalk.
He screwed up season 2 by his actions towards Belle.
He screwed up 3A by treating Emma as a prize to be won, even declaring that he “will win it”
He screwed up 3B by basically using Henry to get in with Emma then making the decision to get Henry out of town without telling Emma anything about it.
He screwed up 4A by trying to blackmail Rumple for his own gain then crying foul when it backfired on him.
He did something in 4B that I didn’t like but I can’t remember what it was. It’s probably written in one of the favourite/least favourite moments threads for season 4.
He screwed up 5A by going for personal attacks on Emma and calling Milah “soiled”.The more the writers try and just whitewash Hook’s misdeeds, the more unlikeable he becomes.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI hope we do get to see Jerome back, he was the highlight of the first half of the season.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixHook crossed that line when he beat Belle and sexually harassed every woman on the show. If you supposedly “plan” for the villain to be the main love interest of your main heroine, it’s best that his initial behavior won’t be despicable.
You are completely right. Belle hadn’t even done anything to him and he still went after her to get back at Rumple. Belle was an innocent and Hook still treated her like crap despite his code of “honour”.
My own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me.
Yeah if that offends you, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this topic. That was his character. There are people like that. Not everyone is sunshine and rainbows. He was a villain then. And at that point, he never tried to force himself on her. They were fighting and he said a stupid line. I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing. It didn’t feel like it was, I’m going to force myself upon you, take your clothes off, and you will feel it and like it. Honestly if you were jumping to that way back then, it’s no wonder you don’t care for this character.
That is still sexual intimidation. Whilst Hook and Emma may be in a relationship now, and Emma is considered a “strong” woman, it is still not okay. What if he’d said that line to someone like Belle, or Marian, or Anna? Imagine Belle caught on her back, Hook looming over her say the “When” he “jabs her with his sword, she’ll feel it”. Whether Hook was a villain or not does not make it okay. In fact, the point of having your villains say stuff like that is to make them as unlikeable as possible. Someone actually made some manips of Dustin Hoffman’s Hook saying some of the lines that Once’s Hook has said. There is no way you’d be so okay with lines like that had it been DH’s Hook saying them.
Regina is never brought to bear for her crimes against Graham.
And I’ll just leave it at this, although Regina never received punishment or had to fully admit that what she did to Graham was awful, I think as fans we understood what she was doing was wrong. I don’t think they condoned it in any way.
IMO this was something that the show should’ve dealt with and actually would’ve been quite groundbreaking in a way. We’re so used to rape being depicted as male on female in the media to the point that it’s almost become the stereotypical depiction of rape. However, female on male rape does happen and is actually a growing problem in real life. So to have Regina do that to Graham and yet suffer absolutely no consequences is disconcerting. Regina is a fan favourite so obviously they don’t want her to be labelled a rapist but they needed to handle that situation better than they did. To just close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears and pretend it didn’t happen is not good.
And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”
Of course that’s awful. But he was an awful person. I’m not defending his comment. Let me be clear. But he was being portrayed as a villain. So why should I have an issue with that line if we as viewers are supposed to view him as a bad guy. Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc. But at the time, a line like that was from a villain who was trying to get in her pants with rude pirate talk, which is why I didn’t have an issue with it.
You kind of are defending his comment because you are making an excuse for him. “he was being portrayed as a villain” is an excuse. That’s like saying Rumple was well within his rights to rip out Milah’s heart and crush it because “he was being portrayed as a villain”. It was okay for Arthur to control Gwen, making her believe she loved him with magic dust because “he was being portrayed as a villain”, it was okay for Pan to emotionally manipulate Henry because “he was being portrayed as a villain” etc etc.
If you start excusing one characters actions because of reasons then you have to apply the same logic across the board.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixYou would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it.
Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind?
You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return.
IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”.
A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix
