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I wish they hadn’t killed Zelena now. ZelenaXGlinda could have worked pretty well. I hope they bring her back, I wanted to see her being redeemed. Felt like a waste of a character, getting rid of her to make room for Frozen.
[adrotate group="5"]I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I just think if they were going to make Red LGBT, then they would have at least hinted at it since we’ve seen a lot more of Red than we have Archie,
Hold up – I’m going to use that word again. Heteronormativity. They would not necessarily have hinted at it. The writers obviously don’t plan anything in advance. As originally concieved, in S1, not a single person in the OUAT cast was queer. Which should raise some serious questions.
They had a Frankenwolf fanart stuck on the wall in the writers’ room. If memory serves it was Adam tweeting about that that kicked off the Fanart Friday thing where they choose a new fanart to add to their wall. It’d be odd for them to have a Frankenwolf art on their wall if they hadn’t been thinking of exploring that storyline.
Part of my problem with the writers – they’ve had all sorts of ship fanart up there, but only ever het ones. Very troubling.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Well said Watcher!
Regina is essentially Emma’s step-grandmother hence why I don’t support SQ as a romantic pairing.This is kind of nonsensical though and some of the canon pairings already cross these boundaries, like Hook having been with Henry’s grandmother, etc. they’re not blood related and while that doesn’t rule them out being “Family” in a sense they don’t have a relationship like that at all. For a “Step” family relationship they actually have to grow up with them and that didn’t happen with Emma. She never had a relationship like that with Regina, so the step part is effectively irrelevant.
It is not “nonsensical” and the step part is not “irrelevant”. It’s akin to pairing an older Henry with Belle. “They’re not blood related”. Let’s use the Example of Hook. Some people don’t like CS because Hook was with Henry’s grandmother and is now with Henry’s mother. It’s a valid reason, there’s nothing “nonsensical” about that. Some people don’t mind it. Ship and let Ship.
But the important difference is, SQ is seen as a crack ship whereas CS is not.
Hell if two siblings love each other enough I’ve nothing against that in theory as long as they don’t reproduce, even if it’s kind of weird to me personally. I don’t object to CS on those grounds anyway, rather the whole No means yes thing I’ve already posted about. I don’t think Emma/Regina’s relation would really draw that much ire from anyone as most people have probably forgotten it already. It only comes up as an anti-SQ talking point. Ever.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I didn’t want to intrude on the CS thread and thought that the discussion needed a neutral ground so people can continue(though I still dislike the anti-SQ remarks) to have their ship discussion.
I hope we can trust people to have a respectful discussion on the matter.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I think in some ways it would be worse to give us a tragic relationship than none at all but I’m not sure.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Well said Watcher!
Regina is essentially Emma’s step-grandmother hence why I don’t support SQ as a romantic pairing.This is kind of nonsensical though and some of the canon pairings already cross these boundaries, like Hook having been with Henry’s grandmother, etc. they’re not blood related and while that doesn’t rule them out being “Family” in a sense they don’t have a relationship like that at all. For a “Step” family relationship they actually have to grow up with them and that didn’t happen with Emma. She never had a relationship like that with Regina, so the step part is effectively irrelevant.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I did a search for LGBT on the forum to see if anyone else had made a thread/post on the subject I was about to post. That’s reasonable enough. And those comments weren’t really out of context at all. They were problematic, and instead of complaining about being outed as a “bully” people should own up to them.
Bully again is when someone uses a position of power to persecute someone without it. Strong against weak etc. so I found the accusations of bullying from Swan Queen really distasteful. Maybe some individual shippers have been harassing people unduly – but it pales in comparison to the harassment SQers get in the first place.
You don’t seem to understand what “Heteronormative” means. We live in a heteronormative society where the values of heterosexuality are upheld above all. Your views are, most likely, coming from a heteronormative place. It’s really really messed up to talk about someone like me “Demanding” what we want as if we are spoiled when again – we don’t even get a thread here! You guys already get far more than us. You guys got the ship you demanded. Painting a marginalised group as needy and demanding is problematic, because we already get so much less than you guys. We deserve more and there is an element of understandable anger when you’re treated like crap. It’s wrong – please don’t do it, and please apologise when you do.
Please don’t make this argument about you. We’re the ones who have to live under oppression and a lack of representation. If there was no institutionalised homophobia this wouldn’t happen. Please acknowledge that everyone can be homophobic a little bit, that it’s part of the values ingrained into society and we all need to do better by checking our privilege and recognising our own internal biases. You are not oppressed by me calling you out on a biased viewpoint. There’s nothing wrong with having a biased viewpoint and then acknowledging it and taking efforts to change that – I’ve had to do this with many things. I’m white, so I suck with race issues. A lot of my friends are sex workers, and I have to learn to be more respectful of their worlds. My views on that have changed greatly over the last year, because I got to know people and didn’t get defensive when corrected.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
(I just reditted the post, sorry about htat)
lately i’ve been watching lost girl, but it has it’s own problems. it has a habit of pulling out the straw feminist as if to say “hey at least we’re not like THESE whackos” and had one really transphobic episode they issues a half-arsed apology for. I love the show and it’s characters to bits, almost as much as OUAT but it sucks that I felt like I was forced to go through with the show because there were so few like it. The same episode was the one that started the ship between the main character and her female love interest, so it wasn’t easy to just skip. I had to endure imagery of someone being “outed” as “male” by being forcibly groped, and the whole “oh is that stubble” nonsense.
Even being triggered like that – Lost Girl still seems more like “home” to me than OUAT because of it, a safer space overall. I don’t think they’ll make that same mistake again even though it aggravates me that they pull the pro-LGBT line with no T characters(unless you read the Liderc as one which you kind of can, thus the issue). It’s a place that I at least know doesn’t sanitise itself to look more attractive to middle of the road white, straight america and still managed to pull in 5 seasons. OUAT may be Disney fare but I’ll never buy the family friendly line. It gets dark. Granted so does Disney sometimes – but it definitely feels more like something like Lost Girl than it does a family show, just less sexy.
it’s meant to be new twists on old tales. what’s a fresh twist isn’t just something like having rumplestiltskin be the beast, it’s stuff like actually representing groups traditionally left out of these tales. i love fairy tales in theory but there are so many problems with them. i want to see like i can be a fairy tale princess without having to marry a prince.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
After how the queer fanbase has been treated I honestly have zero reason to just go on the good graces of the writers. Waiting for whatever bread crumbs are thrown n our direction is a really horrible feeling and I can’t begin to describe it.
If this is the case for any character, especially major ones like Emma or Regina, then its the writers job to actually lead us into it rather than just have it happen out of the blue. That’s one of my main reasons that I don’t ship SQ,
The problem with this is that SQ is consistently one of the most popular ships online despite the marginalisation, misrepresentation and sometimes flat out abuse directed at us. Even if not everyone sees it – a lot of people do. So they’re already half way there. This is based on subtext – imagine if they actually pursued it? You could make arguments for CaptainSwan or OutlawQueen being forced, because in many ways they are. Friendships or friendly rivalries can develop into romance. It can be done if they want to.
I think part of the problem here is that there is a sort of model for romance that people tend to buy into especially these days, the Twilight-ish, bad boy kind of romance. For some reason, Emma and Regina’s antagonism lies outside the boundaries of this(yes, in part because they are queer, sorry, heteronormativity is a thing, we’re less used to seeing this stuff). But in many ways, the way in which they’ve developed together has built a strong foundation for them to start a romantic relationship should they need to. I think that people are taught to see the wrong cues in terms of romance in the sort of groups that OUAT seems to target. Or rather about one vocal part of it – it also attracts the likes of me. I don’t want to get too much into feminist theory, but patriarchy, gender roles, that sort of thing, we do have weird standards for what romance looks like sometimes. In the queer community – we tend to deconstruct that since the same roles don’t apply to us. That could be why there’s such a disconnect between the straight and queer shippers.
I also disagree that it’s impossible for the writers to pull off a decent queer ship. Writers write characters of the opposite gender and completely different life experiences all the time, and don’t always fail at it. Jane Espensen has the capability of writing queer ships. If worse comes to worst, get someone on board who knows how to do it. I really think if they want to make it happen, it isn’t a big deal.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Just got done reading this meta on which ship’ the poster thinks in most popular & why- I found some points rather interesting:
Anonymous said: Do you think Captain Swan is the most popular ship? Or do you think it’s Swan Queen, Rumbelle, or Snowing? Lol I know it isn’t Swanfire. Sorry but not sorry lol. CS just seems to get so much hate though, but maybe this is due to their popularity?? I don’t really pay attention to polls or facebook etc…Just what I see on tumblr and twitter Hmmm, good question and hard to pin point, but….I’ll come out and say that I do think CS is probably the most popular ship and find my reasons below: Aside from a few vocal, whiney fans, the only polls SF ever wins are “worst couple” or Bagel’s still leading in “Dead Man Walking”. Even somewhat SMF positive sites admit Bagel’s incredibly unpopular. Snowing is largely out because while they are the core family, etc—-they’re really only moderately popular separately and they’ve become quite boring and back burnered. While I don’t take internet polls as gospel (more on that later), Snowing generally barely even registers. tbh, I didn’t even know there WERE still Snowing shippers That said, about polls: internet polls are painfully unscientific—-a group of rabid fans, quickly clearing cookies is all that’s needed to completely skew the results of poll, rendering it meaningless. And nowhere do we see this more than with SQ. Why am I convinced SQ isn’t the most popular? To begin, it’s a crack!ship, so it’s hard, honestly to take it seriously to begin with. Even if many people did support it, most viewers of a show still go with actual, cannon pairings, not fantasy. Not only is it a crack!ship, it’s a crack!ship that will never, ever happen. However, I do think they’re rather vociferous fan base that for some reason feels by winning internet polls (though whatever means necessary), they’ll achieve legitimacy. Ironically, they’re remarkably similar to the Tea Party—-they’re insular (“everyone I know is SQ/a tea partier”) and assume that yelling loudly translates to hard numbers (it doesn’t, with the Tea Party, scientifically conducted polls show only 20% of the country views them in any sort of positive light, down by almost half in just 4 years). Rumbelle is the only ship that’s close or might even beat CS in popularity, in fact many CSers also support Rumbelle. For a variety of reasons, I personally don’t (among other things, SparkleDark much more interesting bad)——but I actually suspect overall most people aren’t all that invested in them. Again, their fans are simply very, very loud. As for why CS engenders so much hate—-here’s an interesting thing diehard SF, SQ and Rumbelle all have in common (and again, share with the Tea Party), even as they’re loudly insisting they’re the most popular, they’re gonna win, stupid , delusional CS losers….they’re also all painting themselves as victims when their ship’s storyline doesn’t go as planned. Even though Rumbelle is a cannon ship and it’s clearly the show’s style to put couples through hell, its shippers are endlessly whining about this. With SF, Bagel is generally in the background to begin with, and the show is pretty obvious about its CS leanings——so there’s a lot of whining, SQ is never gonna happen. So CS is seen the obstacle and the showrunners, the actors and the CS shippers are targets of the other ships’ frustrations. Or more simply, they’re jealous and act like petty b!%@hes because of it. Other sources supporting CS’s popularity: contrary to what other ships claim, ABC’s publicity department is NOT incompetent, they heavily feature Colin because he’s money and what the fans want. Simple, recent example? Today’s VD cards on the Once FB page—-Hook’s received over 100K “likes”, the next most “liked” was Charmz’s at 39K, and this is consistent for Colin’s FB pictures. CS is constantly getting press coverage, being recognized as best this or best that. No other couple makes that extensive a cross over impression. Which translates to not only does the devoted, online fandom (which actually represents a very small percentage of viewership as a whole) like CS, the casual viewer does too. So in reality, there’s no question CS is the most popular girl in school! P.S. sorry this got so long. You hit a subject I’m fascinated by and love to discuss!
http://zumpie.tumblr.com/post/76709008572/do-you-think-captain-swan-is-the-most-popular-ship-or The person makes some good points- Although I dont agree with everything they’ve said, there’s a few generalizations in there that I dont quite agree with.
It’s funny how I don’t see any of the Het ships being called “Crack” ships. You cannot pretend homophobia has no part to play in that. Swanqueen would not be called a crack ship if it was a het ship. Full stop.
My own thoughts on this. Some bad language and general frustration over being oppressed:
Also we don’t even get a thread and you guys have to keep attacking us? Really?
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
