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It’s like that one SwanQueen fan that insisted that SQ was in all the writing and acting because that is what she saw and anything else was caving into homophobia. I don’t think it is fair to the writers, creators and actors on the show to act like you, a fan, know their character/show better than they do.
Alright, here’s the problem with this.
There likely aren’t any queer people on the writing staff of OUAT. Most of them probably don’t know what queer romance looks like, how people’s sexuality develop or who it would make sense to have as a queer character. They know little about balancing het vs. homosexual relationships.
The problem with making them an absolute authority on what works on their show, is that it’s defending a heteronormative & cisnormative standard. It’s not more important that they get to tell us about their adventures in heteronormativity queer exclusion than it is that we get decent queer representation.
When the queer community tells you a relationship would make sense, you should consider it. Painting us as the bullies is wrong because we do not have the institutional power to force these things. Rather – het relationships are forced on us constantly. The assumption here is that there is nothing homophobic in the motive for Swan Queen not been seen as a valid ship and I contest that.
Let me tell you a bit how writing works – a lot of the best ideas develop without the writer being fully conscious of it. Sometimes when you’re writing – a character, or interaction between characters surprises you. You end up taking things on a whole new path. This is even more so when you have dozens or hundreds of people working on a TV show. It’s very hard to say anything is or isn’t intentional as an absolute – a great example of this is the Bering & Wells ship from Warehouse 13, which started out as having similar chemistry as Swan Queen, and then the actresses ran with it. It effectively became canon, as a result, until the writers straightwashed Myka in the final season. Which still hurts. A lot. I guess they were just friends after all?
Nobody would go to such lengths to defend a relationship needing to remain platonic as people do for Swan Queen(or ships like Bering/Wells), for a het relationship. It would be a sure indication of a crush or sexual tension.
I’m saying there is homophobic – or rather heternormative motive for Swan Queen not being a thing and there being such opposition to it and I’m tired of people acting persecuted for being called out on that. We all live in a society that is to some degree, homophobic, and puts queer people on a lower rung of importance, including us from representation in all sorts of things. This has a knock on effect, and you’re seeing it in the OUAT fandom. If cannon queer ships were a more common thing, you wouldn’t see the same scuffling.
So again – no, I don’t have sympathy for the writers having “their” story being messed with. Because there are any number of somewhat problematic stalkerish het romance stories out there. It’s much more important, for once, we get to have a gay disney princess type.
[adrotate group="5"]I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Fans like that give Oncers a bad name. Those questions are just rude plain and simple. Worst of all, they are targeted at the actors and actresses themselves. There are ways of bringing up points without being rude about it. I have nothing against having an LGBT couple on the show, however because of fans like that, I hope they never have an LGBT couple on the show because why should bullying behaviour like that be rewarded? It is a shame to people who do genuinely want to have a LGBT couple on the show but it is people, SQers, like that that do serious damage to the cause rather than help it.
This is a really really horrible thing to say.
SQers are constantly harassed and marginalised by the rest of the fandom and our actions are constantly exaggerated while people say much worse to us. It’s aggravating. IT’s not enough to say ‘I’m not homophobic but’. You guys get one of the most active threads on the forum – what do we get? We have to keep to our own holes on places like Tumblr while the rest of you call us crazy. Ongoing discussion of Swan Queen as a ship is effectively silenced here.
LGBT representation is a big issue whether you’d “like” to see it or not. Saying you hope we get none just to “Spite” some bullies is an incredibly privileged and horrible thing to say. We are not bullies. A bully is a person who persecuted from a position of power, which people like me lack. If we had power, there would be a Swan Queen thread here. We would have a queer ship on the show. We wouldn’t constantly be misrepresented and shut out of these communities.
Sometimes I break down crying because of how hard it is to be queer and to never just be able to go to the cinema and see a dumb rom com about two girls that fall in love or a big budget blockbuster about a bisexual translady. i’m stuck with artsy indie flicks most of which don’t interest me or are hard to get a hold of and watching Lost Girl. you have no idea what a lack of representation feels like yet you judge us for acting less aggressively than you do towards us. it is painful growing up in a society that celebrates heterosexual love above all, and OUAT is part of that machine.
What bothers me is that there was a time, before I started shipping Swan Queen that I pretty much shipped Captain Swan. But from a feminist perspective there are issues in the relationship, and it makes me mad that I can’t call these out whereas people will nitpick Swan Queen to pieces. Maintext should not be the most important thing when it excludes people like me constantly, and when it’s prone to changing at the whim of the writers(Maleficent’s totally dead guys etc.). i’m just really mad that nobody thought to call out this post, for how awful SQers are meant to be, this really takes the cake. please stop kicking the underdog. that is bullying.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I’m really really mad at them ruling out a love interest for Elsa. She was the perfect character to introduce as a lesbian. I’m just so mad at them using a character that many cling to in that manner and just say lol nope.
It’s so cowardly. I think asexual Elsa is a reasonable headcanon too but I doubt they’d make a point of it.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
I kinda saw a bit of 10th Kingdom. I liked the plus size Snow White.
Desperately looking for some Fairy Taley with queer characters in it. Lost Girl is kind of closest.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
what they should have done with OUAT Wonderland.
Hoping Galavant has queer characters in it…
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Basically telling a marginalised person to “Let it go” especially when you’re the one who caused them upset is really messed up. Policing the upset of minorities is not your business.
ANd importantly – when you’re talking about queer issues – listen to queer people!
I can’t stress this enough. I just got taken out for drinks by two sex workers and it was amazing how humnaising it was listening to them talking about work etc. and how very human they were. All too often they are spoken over, portrayed as victims, unsafe around kids, whatevers, when they’re in many ways just like everyone else, and the ways in which they aren’t are okay too.
It’s really really harmful and dehumanising when straight/cis people talk over our issues and the things that affect us. Straight/cis people have a louder voice than us and you have to be responsible than that.
Erasing our problems is not being responsible, it’s really awful and people need to take responsibility for it. They’re not “Issues”, they’re Issues, full stop, and it’s not up for you to decide that when you’re not affected by or educated on the issue at hand.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
Crystal, I’m sorry you’re hurt I have already dealt with the issue, as is my duty on this site. I understand being upset, but since the issue was resolved, can we please get back to the topic at hand?
Geez Luiz…we had this argument what last week, or the week before?? I thought we were passed this. @RumplesGirl, if you can, delete any posts I made on this thread if it was that offensive. I apologized, what the hell else am I supposed to do? And FYI @CrystalPrincess…@Felie helped me understand some of your point of view on these sensitive matters. So know that on some lines now, I can see your perspective on a few things. And I think the best way to handle my so called “hurtful” posts is to delete them, keep calm, and let it go.
Look this is exactly the problem here. I know people want to move on, but personally I can’t.
When you have to put “Hurtful” in quotation marks like that and talk down to and condescend queer people who you’re hurting, it’s really oppressive. It’s wrong, it’s discouraging to LGBT members of the forum and the other mods need to take note of that. You are not being remotely respectful here. It’s not “hurtful” it’s Hurtful. You are not affected by it, you don’t get to decide the effect it has on others.
Again:
http://whattamisaid.blogspot.com/2009/11/when-allies-fail-part-one.html
And what do we do when this happens–when allies fail? How can we address mistakes, while preserving relationships and maintaining the power that comes through alliances with people outside of our group? How do I think an ally should respond when their bias or privilege is called out? How do I think marginalized groups should handle the mistakes allies make?
This is the first of two posts on maintaining alliances in the face of failure. Today, I will tackle the responsibilities of anti-racist and feminist allies. What should an ally do when he or she has made an unwitting show of prejudice or privilege?
Listen. Good relationship habits 101–listen to the person(s) that you have harmed. It may be helpful to repeat what you understand the grievance to be in order to demonstrate that you are making an effort to understand. Before you speak, think about what is being said. Try to put aside your ego (hard as that is) and examine the “offense.” Can you see your privilege peeking through? Have you uncovered a hidden bias? Even if your actions were unintentional, can you see how they could be misconstrued?
Don’t defend. Everyone wants to believe they have their prejudices in check. And when you are generally diligent about examining your biases and privilege, and you have good intentions, hearing that you have failed can feel like a slap. It is easy to become defensive, rattling explanations and defenses rather than truly listening to the person who is offended. And you may feel angry: “After all the ways I’ve proven myself, how could anyone think I am (racist, sexist, etc.).” Resist the urge to defend yourself at first. This doesn’t mean you need be endlessly berated or that the person who you have offended is right. It simply means that you can’t listen and hear where another person is coming from if you are talking.
Allow us our anger. It isn’t easy being a member of a marginalized group. For instance, I have written before about the dull aches of racism. I have also written about how members of marginalized groups are expected to hold their tongues in the face of mistreatment–to be the “bigger persons.” What may seem like a very small deal to you, to us may be yet another wearying and soul-destroying slight. Any human being has a right to be angry about injustice. Again, this does not mean that we have the right to dehumanize or insult you. It is not an ally’s job to be endlessly flogged and called to account for the sins of all society. But marginalized people do have a right to be pissed off and to show it.
Apologize. If you understand and agree that you have committed an offense, apologize. No “I’m sorry, but…” No need to explain the whys and wherefores or attempt to minimize. Just say, “I’m sorry. I was wrong and I should have known better.” Period. Own your mistake. Now, I am not suggesting that you apologize for something you didn’t do or don’t think you’ve done. If, after truly listening, you believe you have been misunderstood…well, that situation is more difficult. That I am a black woman does not automatically mean that I am always right in identifying a white person’s race bias or a man’s gender bias. There is a way to acknowledge what another person is feeling, even if you ultimately don’t apologize. But know that if you’re a guy on a womanist Web site, for example, and multiple women tell you that you are being a sexist asshole, you probably need to check yourself.
(If Possible) Correct. If what you have done can be undone, do it immediately.
Educate yourself. The best way to come to understand how, say, “racism” works, to identify your own biases and to learn the language of the movement, is to get smart about racial prejudice and privilege, as well as other cultures. Don’t rely on people of color to do your work for you. As allies, we will naturally share some information with you, teach a little. But teaching is not our responsibility. Read the books by important thinkers on race. Note new study results. Pay attention to pop culture, media and art beyond the mainstream. Seek a diverse group of friends. Lurk on popular anti-racist blogs. Get involved offline. And again, listen…listen…listen. This is the best way to avoid missteps and to recover when you fail. Your education is your responsibility.
Reaffirm your commitment. Proof that you are a true ally to a cause–whatever the cause is–is that you slog through and keep going, even through rough patches and arguments. Your continued presence post-mistake, whether on a feminist blog or in a local grassroots anti-racist organization, is a demonstration of your commitment.
I don't cause commotions, I am one.
