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By your logic, a woman can never turn a man’s life around without making them look like an object just to get the man to where he needs to be in life. But if that’s your view, then you have to be equally annoyed if Emma was a man and Hook was a girl. Feminism is about equality right?
You’re still largely missing the feminist critique point. It has nothing to do with love or turning someone’s life around. It’s about agency, which is what I said many pages back. Yes, fall in love and be a helpmate but if in doing so the character loses themselves and their story and their agency and if their story only becomes about one specific thing–a romantic partner–then they aren’t a strong female (or any gender) character. Emma’s entire story centers around Hook. There have been examples of this over this last year alone. To wit:
–When she talked to Archie about dying it was about how Hook would lose his happy ending. Now, would I expect her as a thinking and feeling human to care about her partner? Absolutely! She’d be a weird cold fish if she didn’t. But he was her first concern. Her first concern should be HERSELF! She should be worried about dying because it means her life is over. Her second concern should be everyone else–which means Snowing, and Henry, and Regina and Hook and the town she’s sworn to protect!
–When Gideon came to her for help just a few episodes ago he told her that the Black Fairy is torturing children. When Emma finally agrees to help him she says it’s because he reminds her of Henry (yes, good…!) but then she doubles down on the REAL reason she’s helping him—not because Gideon reminds her of Henry and not because of the children who are being held captive and tortured but because “let’s get my pirate back.”
–She should want Hook back. Of course she should! But she doesn’t even hesitate about letting Snow give her the magical flower to go and save him even though it means that Snowing may never wake up and that her brother might be raised without parents which is EXACTLY what happened to Emma. Emma of a few years ago would have done everything in her power to prevent a child from growing up alone because of how much that has affected her.
–Emma telling Hook that she made the situation difficult when he was caught lying about Charming.
If those are too specific when was the last night Emma had any significant screen time with someone who isn’t Hook or Regina? You could say this last episode but her entire focus was on Hook to the point when her mother sacrificed herself and her husband for Hook, Emma was totally nonchalant about it. So nonchalant that when Hook came back she didn’t tell him to put the brakes on while he’s proposing while her parents lie unconscious in the other room. When was the last time she did anything with Henry? Or another female who isn’t part of a fandom romantic wish (ie: Regina). When was the last time Emma had a friend??
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"In other news, Agents of SHIELD rose to a 0.8 last night. It managed to hit the highest ratings since its January return. I think if it holds up, it’s looking more possible as a renewal. This is the most unexpected rebound for me, especially considering how badly Quantico crashed recently.
I think if ABC can swing it, they’d like for AoS to stay around. It’s part of the Disney family whereas Quantico is not, despite their love of the show.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Not even going to lie….. Im worried about Jared’s singing….
Are we sure he’s singing? I thought it was Lana, Jmo/Colin, Snowing and Zelena?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"just think you’re reaching a bit. I see nothing wrong with a strong female woman falling in love with a guy who has a bad past but Emma, being the good person she is, turns his life around
Then you haven’t read what I’ve said about what a strong female is. It has nothing to do with falling in love with a bad guy or otherwise. But what you’re saying is that a strong female is someone who turns a bad guy into a good guy which is in effect turning that strong female into just an object or vessel for a man’s redemption. That is not the definition of a strong female and it’s a very specific kind of misogyny.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"So that Writers Strike looks more and more possible each day: WGA Strike Authorization Voting Underway This would not only effect OUAT, but all scripted shows, if the strike happens and isn’t settled fast enough. With Upfronts happening very soon, this would be very bad news for the networks.
I would imagine this would lead to a cut season which IMO should be what they do. OUAT’s ratings couldn’t survive another full 22 episode season.
Personally hoping for a 12 episode final season. 6 in winter and 6 in fall
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Darkonedearie do you ship swanfire? Or you enjoyed the sake of debate for the sake of debate?
I ship Emma Swan. I love her. I liked her with Neal and I like her with Hook. Whatever makes her happy! I think people on here are overly harsh toward Hook.
Which is fair and fine and perfectly valid. But it goes back to something others have highlighted: we’re essentially having two different conversations. You want Emma to be happy and because Emma, the character in universe, says she’s happy then you’re content. That’s valid. I don’t dispute that. But like 90% of the conversations we end up having about cs or hook have less to do with the character themselves and more to do with how those characters or ships scan culturally, socially, through a feminist lens. Do I think Emma is happy? Sure because the writers make her say she is. Emma’s a vessel. She can feel however the writers want her to feel. But is this happiness problematic and symptomatic of disturbing trends in media, Hollywood, culture and gender Dynamics? Yup.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"[mod]
This is the last time I will say this. The next person who disrupts any thread with any ship war nonsense is getting a warning. Attacks against other posters is not tolerated nor is the level of discourse going on here. Keep this thread to the musical.
[/Mod]
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"The writers maintain that this show is about strong women, but I think this show is a sad wake-up call that Western women really haven’t made that much progress in the past century as I’d assumed or hoped.
Yup. And just to be somewhat fair this isn’t just an OUAT problem. This is a media/cultural problem. “Strong women” is a buzzword in TV, it’s something writers and producers use as a way to attract viewers. But the problem is that a lot of writers have no idea what a “strong woman” is. They think that a “strong woman” is 1) tough and willing to get physical if the scene requires it 2) tough talker, swagger, threatening ect. In other words, they take characteristics that are traditionally read as male and put them in a female body which is its own special brand of misogyny. This isn’t to say that woman can’t be 1 and 2 but that’s not how “strong women” are actually defined. It’s about agency! A woman could be tough and physical but at the end of the day if all her actions and thoughts are only to serve her boyfriend/fiancee/husband’s story and her character comes to a halt/devolves then she’s not a strong female character. It’s about having control over your story and not being the passive object in another–usually male romantic partner–story.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Y’all. We’re not going down this road in ANOTHER thread.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"None of this was ever implied about Neal, no matter how he felt about Emma.
If anything it was the exact opposite with Neal. It was stated by characters that Neal and Emma may *never* get back together (I think they would have obviously through lots of pain and hard work and conversation and forgiveness) but if you want text from the show to demonstrate this basic difference then just look at the two conversations each man has with Emma in NVL.
Neal, in 3×10 “The New Neverland”
Neal: Listen, Henry’s back and he’s safe. We all are. Okay, look, I’ll make it easier for you. Tomorrow I’m gonna be hungry just around lunchtime and so I’m gonna come here. (He points to a table.) I’m gonna sit in that booth and you’re welcome to join me. And if not, I’ll quit bugging you.
Hook, in 3×7 “‘Dark Hollow”
So when I win your heart, Emma… and I will win it… it will not be because of any trickery. It will be because you want me.
Like honestly this is the most entitled dreck from Hook. She has no choice in the matter, it’s inevitable. It’s basically a done deal and he’s just waiting for “the fun to begin.” Yes, he says Emma will have to choose but in his entitled mind, the choice is already made and he’s won. When Emma responds that this isn’t a contest, his response is “isn’t it?”
So I 100% agree with what @PriceOfMagic is saying about how Hook makes Emma look/act, but I would add that I still dislike Hook because I see him as an embodiment of white male privilege that turns women into objects that exist for their story. Which is largely POM’s point.
So yes Hook has made progress. In fact, he’s more tolerable now than he’s ever been. However, like @nevermore said, he’s still being written from an entitled white male privilege standpoint (not surprising given half the writers in that room are the same). Whatever Hook gives up, he gets back. He abandoned his baby brother after killing their father? He gets his brother back, his brother’s forgiveness, and more or less a *shrug* about the whole parental murdering. He gives up his ship? He gets it back. He murders Charming’s father and lies to Emma about it? He gets Charming’s instant forgiveness and Emma takes the blame on herself for making the situation hard for him. And the rationale behind these last two–the ship and Charming/Emma–is that it’s his reward for his heroism and because he loves Emma so much.
@nevermore makes a really good point that Regina is the best contrast here. Regina loses Robin? He doesn’t come back and she’s constantly having to look her past sins in the face–like her literal evil half terrorizing the town she’s attempted to make good in."He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
