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Okay, a lot of what you say is such a broad generalization based on only the most recent discussions in a fandom that has never been more divided that, I’m sorry, I need to correct/make a case for some things here.
But there’s a reason for that. These anti-Hook fans would be fine when Hook slips up if he wasn’t dating Emma.
Not even the tiniest bit true. I (and actually a great portion of the people who continue to dislike Hook) have disliked Hook from the moment I met him and we saw his first few episodes. I found him neither compelling nor overly interesting. I had problems with him from a feminist standpoint, from a media standpoint, and from a rape culture standpoint–the caveat being that those criticisms are only getting worse as the show goes on and the show adds more story to him. All of this was from long before Emma and Neal re-met in Manhattan and certainly long before Hook and Emma formed a romantic relationship. I have, in the past, given ample reasoning for why I read Hook the way I do and maybe only the smallest part of it stems from being Pro-SF/Pro-Neal.
There is a through-line in your reasoning that because I ship something else or enjoyed another character more the criticisms I and others have against Hook/CS are, ispo facto, null and void and that they can’t possibly hold any relevance/weight because of something I just happen ship. It’s a unique frustration that any well thought out argument I, a well educated critical analyst, may have is instantly dismissed as the anger of an upset shipper.
See, many people enjoyed Hook when Neal was still around
Again, no. If you want evidence go back through this forum in season 2-3A/3B. The divide was here long before Neal died; it wasn’t just the death of Neal that spurred anger towards Captain Hook.
Newsflash to everyone: Emma is allowed to date a morally grey character.
Emma can date whomever the heck she wants–Hook, Regina, Random Peasant #45621. I don’t really care who she dates anymore; I care about the message this TV show is sending out when the morally grey character does straight up bad things (like murder) and never gets taken to task for it all while the relationship in question is being lauded as the greatest love story of the ages. It’s disturbing. They want to redeem Hook and put him with Emma? Fine. That’s their choice; but it means the writers have to openly acknowledge the bad things he’s done and not have it whitewahsed through exposition of one character (Emma, see for instance episode 3×15) or have it forgotten altogether. You cannot deny that those two things have been done.
Conversely to this, if the writers ARE going to whitewash/exposition away Hook’s ill deeds in order to service their romantic story then the same holds that they must be willing to do the same for other equally morally grey characters–but they don’t do that. There’s an inequality here.
But Rumple could be considered morally grey too but he doesn’t get the criticism that Hook does because people have just accepted that he’s a bad person now.
Malarkey. Come on. You know as well as I that some of the most active threads of this past year have been about Rumple and whether or not he’s redeemable, good or bad, light or dark, whether his relationship with Belle is worth saving and whether or not his actions have any sort of organic reasoning that fits with 5 years worth of story. Don’t make it out that there hasn’t been tons of Rumple criticism in this fandom, just in the past two years alone (this is to say nothing of the way many fans hated him right off the bat because of his manipulation of the Charmings)
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@sciencevsmagic posted this in another thread; it’s a pretty interesting essay.
http://www.onceuponafans.com/news/the-evolution-of-character-underdevelopment-on-once-upon-a-time
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I’m new to these forums, so forgive me if I’m wrong but is this discussion still “going on”? Or has it been moved elsewhere, or does no one want to actually talk about Hook anymore?
First, welcome!
These threads are always open for conversation but defintely go through big lulls (and right now we’re in the middle of a big hiatus in general lol) but always welcome comments and thoughts.
I don’t think you’re necessarily “wrong” in you analysis or that you need to go back and rewatch–but I also think that media analysis is hugely subjective and that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and views. The problem you seem to have stumbled upon is that Hook is easily–EASILY–the most polarizing character on this show for the fandom. And five seasons in, no one is really going to change their mind on him (hence the big lulls in conversation in threads like this one–once everyone has their say, that’s it. Debate and thoughtful conversation turn to fighting all too easy in this fandom…and again, hiatus time)
Is Hook morally grey? Sure. But so is every single character on this show so I don’t think he’s some sort of singular entity in that regard. Even the heroes are now grey and sketchy (the main heroes stole a baby after all…) and the villains get huge arc-long sob stories to elicit sympathy and make them easily redeemable by complicating their most treacherous acts.
I personally believe that one of the biggest problems with Hook is that the writers want to have their cake and eat it too–they want him to be the rogue pirate who falls into all manners of cliches (the rum drinking, the womanizing, the savvy devil may care bad boy in black leather) and they also want him to be a leading heartthrob. It’s might be possible to be both but it doesn’t help when most of his misdeeds (up to and including murder) are handwaved away through a plot device, whitewashed by exposition of other characters (mostly Emma), or most egregiously, forgotten altogether (Merlin-murder, for instance). It leads to audience members reading him in stark colors (reformed former bad boy OR unrepentant villain) based–oh—a whole host of things like age, experiences, education, ect.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Janus
I know that name through Goldeneye.
Two-Faced Roman God of transitions, beginnings, endings, ect.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I know. My questions are pointless. Sigh.
As the show stands now, yes, they are pointless. But I completely agree that the writers WERE playing with a larger story about fate, destiny, and the SwanFire family of Emma, Neal and Henry. I don’t know what it was, though I still have theories mostly about true love being the ultimate force in the Onceiverse, Emma’s embodiment of said force but how that force can only be truly focused when one has a community/a family (blood or otherwise) surrounding them and that it was ultimately Neal and Henry that ground Emma’s own heroic divinity.
But that whole story that was one elegant circle about two lost kids leaving their homes and then finding it again with each other and their son got tossed out the second the writers decided to kill Neal. It might sprinkle through intermittently in later seasons, but it’s nowhere near as elegant, thoughtful, or powerful as it would have been.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Side question: is the shows’ version of Zeus supposed to be the capricious sort of god from real Greek mythology? His decision to resurrect the pirate seemed pretty capricious to me, especially since Hook was the cause of so much needless heartache.
Quite possibly. Zeus’ reasoning for bringing Hook back were pretty broad and seemed to stem from “hey, you did me a solid by getting rid of my pesky brother who wanted to take what I think is rightfully mine, so now I’ll do one for you!” It’s so hard to say since Zeus appeared for a grand total of 2 mins and had, maybe, 4 lines of dialogue.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It’s an intriguing story but the history of this show is that the writers don’t plan out multiseasonal arcs. They plan one arc at a time (and even then look at S5A, where it was clear they changed their mind about 6 episodes in)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Sadly I agree with HJ and WR. They almost never connect the seasonal arcs, especially in terms of emotions. Heck, even the two part finale of S5 had nothing to do with the arc thus far. Regina’s emotions were more about ignoring her instincts (which are always bubbling below the surface, no matter the situation) and Emma was fine.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Storybrooke polling place was at Granny's. Free lasagna for every voter! pic.twitter.com/CvTQaZmoxY
— Brigitte Hales (@InkTankGirl) June 7, 2016
Emma Swan, what will your story be? pic.twitter.com/f4mY5lktcu
— Brigitte Hales (@InkTankGirl) June 7, 2016
New addition to my office-scape. Once Up-ooooom A Time. pic.twitter.com/JaoXDVypXK
— Brigitte Hales (@InkTankGirl) June 8, 2016
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
