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What do you guys think about using spoiler tags for more further discussion of things coming up? Or should we keep it purely to what is happening now in the story?
I think both are okay. The guidelines states don’t jump too far ahead unless it’s relevent and for the moment, discussing morality of DD, it is. But I think spoiler policy is best unless it suddenly becomes not but a black wall of text. For the *most* part we should stick to the chapter at hand, and what comes before. I’ll take my fair share of blame; goodness knows it’s hard.
Got it, that makes perfect sense. I couldn’t remember how far ahead or how much we could reference but I think within reason is good. Could you tell that to miss jumps ahead all the time, aka Josephine, aka future-mrs-percy-weasley
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Exactly Jo! The example I used was just one real life example but there are many. As RG pointed out, homosexuality, now racism, religion could be one, gender, class, and so on. There are countless NON-magical examples that could be drawn upon to shed light on prejudice, and to connect to future generations of readers. I’m sure we all felt alone at some point in our adolescence, so it doesn’t have to be so deep of a conversation, but there are loads of ways for everyone to connect to that feeling and feel sorry for poor Harry.
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They know that Harry is different, even if Harry doesn’t. And they’ve been lying to him for his whole life
To take this out of the magical world for a second, but I also think that JKR is trying to make a larger and more salient point. For those who track social media, JKR has become quite the outspoken advocate for LBGTQ rights and I think a lot of her social justice views can be found in her work (not surprising. Most authors insert their own personal stances on the “issues of the day” into their writings). What if Harry were not magical but gay? Or transgendered? The Dursely’s recognize that Harry is the “other” and they are treating him as an “other.” This type of “othering” is constant in our real, non literary world. I’m not going to get on a soapbox at this point and talk about social justice rights (cause that is a can-o-worms) but JKR is using magic vs mundane, I think, to make a point about the broader world and how we (the collective society) treat anyone that is perceived as different.
Yes, I’ve noticed this as well. It could easily be interpreted in a racial way as well. Petunia is clearly NOT magical by any means, and her sister is Harry’s mother so we can only assume that she was at least born into the “normal” world. Petunia clearly didn’t agree with or condone her sister’s marriage or “lifestyle” for some (at this point unexplained) reason. So therefore, Harry’s mom must have married an “other” and is the result of that. (I mean no disrespect here, just using the same terms as above). Here in the U.S. it wasn’t legal for a white person and an AA person to get married until what, 60 some odd years ago? So I guess the question is why the Dursleys, particularly Petunia, have such a distaste for Henry’s parents?
I would be shocked if no one was checking in on him somehow over the years. McGonagal stood outside their door for less than a day and knew they were terrible people. But if someone did check in on him, why did nobody see how they were treating him and do something about it? That is what astounds me.
I makes me wonder how…tyrannical…Dumbledore can really be. McGonagal knew (like you said) from the very first chapter the sort of people the Dursely’s were. She was clearly concerned, and certainly wasn’t mollified by the idea of a letter from Dumbledore. I keep coming back to this idea that Dumbledore is imposing very strict rules on those that follow him and live under his guidance. He might allow McGongal and the others to look in on Harry but tells that in no uncertain terms are they allowed to interfere in Harry’s life before the age of 11. Because can we really see Hagrid not stepping in had he known what was going on? McGonagal might have obeyed orders but surely it had to be a constant “Albus, we shouldn’t be doing this! He’s just a boy!” with Dumbledore. I think one of the larger questions we’ll be asking each book is not just “was Dumbledore right to do X?” but also, “how alike are Dumbledore and Voldemort?”
That’s a really interesting question. There is obviously a reason that Dumbledore chose to leave Harry with the Dursleys, knowing the “sort of people they were”. I think it would be much easier to discuss a lot of these in more depth, if we discussed the series as a whole. But how far do we want to go? So far, those of us participating have read the series a number of times so there will be no spoilers for us… But it’s proving difficult to discuss without jumping ahead and having to pretend we don’t know some of the answers. Shall I propose spoiler tags? Forgive me RG if I mess this up, I haven’t done it in a while.
For instance, we know that Dumbledore left Harry with the Dursleys because of the blood ties between Petunia and Lily. He knew that Voldemort would be back, and it was the only thing that would truly keep Harry safe. So knowing this, was it fair of Dumbledore to keep Harry there, knowing he would be miserable, knowing he would be unloved and hoping he would turn out ok, when he knew that it was quite possibly the only thing keeping Harry alive? But then does it make it more unfair, if Dumbledore ultimately knew the outcome, and left Harry there anyways?
DD and Voldy are a lot more alike when you think about it. Both are “end justifies the means”, both think they are doing things “for the greater good”.
What do you guys think about using spoiler tags for more further discussion of things coming up? Or should we keep it purely to what is happening now in the story?
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Even during my first reading of the books, I was struck by how cruel the Dursley’s are to Harry and at this point, we (and Harry) are given absolutely no explanation as to why. In all honesty, if something were to happen to Harry, there would be little to no proof that he had actually existed. So when RG said earlier:
It’s worth pointing out, from a character standpoint, that even though Harry has had these magical experiences before he never thinks of himself as magical or special. He doesn’t start to wonder if he’s magical or has some sort of power deep within himself. We can argue it’s because he is unaware of the other world and therefore doesn’t even contemplate a world in which he could be magical, but it also speaks to his extremely low self esteem and the idea that he’s just Harry. Ordinary, everyday, run of the mill, nothing special, better if forgotten Harry.
It’s so apparent in this chapter how little Harry thinks of himself and how he has just accepted his lot in life. He’s absolutely miserable, and he just thinks there is no way out (“the Dursleys were his only family” page 30). He is utterly alone. In the last chapter, we discussed what we thought of the Dursleys and here is one of the main reasons I will never like them or ever feel a modicum of sympathy for them ever.
“I’m warning you, “he had said, putting his large purple face right up close to Harry’s, “I’m warning you now, boy – any funny business, anything at all – and you’ll be in that cupboard from now until Christmas.”
“I’m not going to do anything,” said Harry, “honestly…”
But Uncle Vernon didn’t believe him. No one ever did.
The problem was, strange things often happened around Harry and it was no good telling the Durlsey he didn’t make them happen.
By this small piece of text, we know that Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia know something. They know he can do things, make things happen. They know that Harry is different, even if Harry doesn’t. And they’ve been lying to him for his whole life. No mention is made of Harry’s parents, questions are not allowed and he doesn’t even know what they look like. He doesn’t know who had the messy black hair, or where he got his bright green eyes. Family is really important to me, we have pictures of family members brought over from Italy, so I can’t imagine not having a connection to that. To knowing whose nose I have (my great great grandmother) or ears (my grandfather, Irish side). And the Dursleys kept all that from him, and would continue keeping that from him his entire life. It’s just cruel and mean.
1. Could one or multiple people be watching over Harry through his childhood? I would be shocked if no one was checking in on him somehow over the years. McGonagal stood outside their door for less than a day and knew they were terrible people. But if someone did check in on him, why did nobody see how they were treating him and do something about it? That is what astounds me.
2. How would Harry have turned out if the Dursleys had treated him fairly and like a family member as he was growing up and not like an outcast? Would the Dursleys have treated him differently if he had ended up being just like them? What if he had been just a terrible kid, what if he had been bigger and meaner than Dudley? I think the point of the chapter is nature vs nurture, that Harry was a good, kind, soul despite being raised by jerks. If Harry had turned out to be like them, we wouldn’t all love the story so much.
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Are you excited for Missy to come back? I’m cautiously optimistic about Missy coming back. I thought she was completely mental and I enjoyed her a lot, so it felt a little rushed when we find out she’s the Master and then she’s gone? So even in that second, I thought No WAY she is gone for good. It does feel a bit too soon for a big Master vs Doctor showdown again, but then again, it’s been like 7 or so years for us but maybe 400 years or so for him, so I guess time travel is well…. wibbly wobbly.
How will 12 be different this season than last? Who is Maisie Williams playing? My impression of 12 now, is that he’s got a bit fractured, a bit messy, and little more mad man with a box. He seems disheveled, but perhaps more with a purpose? I can’t tell because it really is only like a minute and a half of footage. I’m hoping the search for Gallifrey comes up? It was such a HUGE part of the 50th and it’s barely been mentioned (has it even been mentioned?) I do think Maisie Willaims will be some sort of Time Lord character, connecting this to previous Doctors which is exciting. We were thinking Ramona, but I think Susan is a grand choice (good thinking RG). I don’t know why we didn’t think of that. It feels that maybe some of the Doctor’s past will be coming back to haunt him? Either way, there’s a lot of explosions apparently.
Clara: Yay or Nay? I really wish I could like Clara. She was interesting at first, but I didn’t like the unrequited love angle with her and 11. I didn’t like her relationship with 12 at first, but I’m finding it hard to really enjoy 12 too. It always takes me a while to warm up to a new doctor so I’m sure he will grow on me, although I think Capaldi is brilliant. But Clara… I actually liked her a lot more with the introduction of Danny Pink (and yes, I think he’s coming back. I don’t care what you think, don’t dash my dreams). I liked her forming a relationship outside of the Doctor, and her brokenness when Danny was killed. But once he was gone, I was over her again. I think it’s time for a new companion, in my own humble personal opinion. I do see why others like her though.
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Rereading the first chapter while trying to forget everything that I’ve read was difficult (considering I’ve read the series so many times) but every time I’m reminded of how this may be one of the best opening chapters, if not opening lines, in the history of the literary world.
“Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number 4, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much. They were the last people you’d expect to be involved in anything strange or mysterious, because they just didn’t hold with such nonsense.”
These first two lines perfectly set up the fact that things are about to get very strange and mysterious for the Dursleys, and that are most certainly NOT going to enjoy it. As Jo has pointed out, it’s incredibly strange for a first chapter to not only center wholly on a set of characters that aren’t the main protagonists, but what’s fascinating to me is how much you don’t like the Dursleys by the end, even little Dudley. We are also very much in the middle of a story, with very little background besides there’s a bad person, he’s been defeated. 2 young people have died, and left their infant child behind. Somehow, this child survived and is special. We don’t know how or why, just that it was some sort of a miracle and strange events have happened across the country since the events of the night before. We also can tell tell that Vernon Dursley knows something about the strange goings on, but won’t admit it to his family or himself.
How do I feel about the Dursleys? Never before have I disliked a fictional character so quickly and resolutely as the Dursleys, and I feel that we’re meant to. They are obnoxious and selfish, totally self-absorbed, and obsessed with one upping the neighbors. They have an obsession with being normal, and judging by Vernon’s suspicions early on, have more knowledge about the world than they let on. And they hate it.
I immediately got a flashback to Disney’s “The Sword and the Stone” version of Merlin.
Again, a very good point. Especially since part of Voldemort’s name comes from the evil doer Voldemortis from Authrian legend who once tried to destroy Merlin and was taken down by King Arthur.
That I didn’t know, RG, very interesting, even though I always thought of King Arthur when I think of Harry’s upbringing. A young boy, destined for greatness, whisked away from his family for safety and brought up with relatives (who aren’t necessarily likeable). In Disney’s “The Sword in the Stone”, we know Arthur’s foster family treats him terribly, and force him to do chores around the castle. They laugh at his aspirations to become a knight, and scoff his idea of studying and getting an education. I can’t speak for other versions of the story, as I am no Arthurian scholar by any means, but without going to further into later chapters, what a parallel.
This is so much fun, great idea guys! Although I’m having to dust off my college english lit major analyzing brain, which I haven’t used in like 15 years. 🙂
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Lauren that video is so amazing. It made me smile and made my heartache at the same time. God this show was so good once. I really miss Neal. #NealCassidyisandalwayswillbebetterthanyouforeverabdever
Keeper of the Cheshire Cat’s smile, Baelfire’s sword, Snow’s backpack, Robin Hood’s bow, Ariel’s purse, Ariel’s smile, Henry’s heart, Belle’s shoe collection
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all of you for the birthday wishes! I had a great day at Disney (it was cold, rainy and deserted) and it was so sweet of you all to think of me 🙂
I don’t know what to say about Once lately… all the news is… um, underwhelming? I’m finding a lack of incentive to keep watching when the only thing I was really interested in was the Author/Sorcerer storyline and I’m not quite sure where that’s going with recent spoilers.
Love you all though! I’ll be back more once the show starts 🙂
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I think it’s important to remember the scene from earlier in the episode, where Regina and Snow were talking about heroes vs villains, how people change and how having Hope is so important to hold on to. I firmly believe that after that conversation, Regina started to believe that there was hope, that her fate wasn’t dictated by a book and that maybe she DID deserve a happy ending. I think the page appearing was a way for Regina to see that her life *could* have been different had she made different choices, not necessarily that the book has been rewritten or that her memories were erased. However, I think there’s a good chance she may try to replace Page 23 and we get a “what if” episode, which could be interesting.
And whoever/whatever is responsible for “writing” the book is very much at work. I suspect it’s sorcerer related, but maybe it will surprise me?
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The missing page…I KNEW IT! I knew Regina met Robin in the past, someone erased their memories! Rumple or Blue! Who Did IT!!!!
I don’t think that’s what it meant at all. Just that fate has many different paths, and their lives *could* have been different if she had walked into the pub. Thats essentially what Robin said in that scene, that there are multiple versions of the story.
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