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So question: What could be revealed or addressed showing Belle before she met Rumple? Maybe it could explain, why she is so blind to Rumple’s evilness. Could simple say, love makes blind, but somehow I prefer to see love as a positive aspect of life, improving and extending our selves and not diminishing them.
I think it could. Maybe since she was in an arranged marriage like Charming, that she didn’t believe in the existence of true love.Yep. I’d like to know how Belle became Belle. The Belle we know is strong and confident, but maybe she wasn’t always. Also, who was Belle’s mother and what happened to her?We’ve seen how Rumple became the Dark One, how Snow became Snow, how Killian Jones became Captain Hook, how the shepherd!David became Prince Charming and how Regina became the Evil Queen. And we know more about Emma’s past than Belle’s. Belle is one of the main characters so her story should be told on screen too.The real test for Belle’s love will come, when Rumple loses his power, stops to be the Dark One, if that ever will happen. Can Belle love a simple man, the vulnerable, fearful guy who is plagued by feeling inadequate and at the mercy of others or fate as much as she loves the charming, witty but reckless and ruthless powerful magician with a soft side? She might believe she would, but would she? Or would she react alike Milah did and find him abhorrent? Was it just an adventurous streak and goodness (the will to sacrifce herself for the many) that drove her to offer herself as prize for Rumple for stopping the Ogres attacking her people? And was it goodness or as much curiosity and attraction to danger and power which then made her stay with Rumple and fall for him?
Belle can love him as ordinary man. I know what she said in Quiet Minds but I think ultimately if given the choice between his dark side powers and being normal, she choose normal. I do think sometimes she can be blinded to the things he does but she also calls him out too when he’s wrong. I don’t dislike Belle but I am starting to see the flaws in her character in the way the writers have written her.
Agreed. Also, in “Skin Deep”, Belle tried to break his curse so he’d be an ordinary man again. I think that when she said that she loves even the parts that belong to the darkness, she didn’t mean his “evilness”, but rather his melancholic nature. As Emilie once said, Belle fell in love with him for his “tortured soul.”
I don’t dislike Belle but I am starting to see the flaws in her character in the way the writers have written her.
She’s becoming incredibly one note. Rumple does something that is morally wrong, Belle accepts that he has darkness but it’s okay cause she loves that part of him anyway. She’s not really believable anymore. If she barely blinks at the Zelena revelation or if she forgives him in a short amount of time, then the writers really don’t know how to write for her.
My issue with Belle is that she seems to think Rumple is more noble person than he is/he thinks he is (at he moment). I mean, Rumple went through hell and lost his son, and she believed he wouldn’t lash out, even though he has snapped for less than that before. She trusted that Rumple wouldn’t go after Zelena, even though he didn’t promise anything (and it wasn’t the first time he did that). And even though his face screamed “guilty!” in Sheriff’s Station, she didn’t doubt anything. Belle is supposed to be a smart woman who can read people, but those last three episodes made her look almost stupid..
However, I think this Zelena/dagger mess may turn out to be good for Belle/Rumbelle (if done properly). This is a great opportunity to deal with the problems in their relationship. Actually, I’m really looking forward to what’s coming up.
[adrotate group="5"]I think it’s because Belle saw that Rumple feels guilty for killing Milah and didn’t want to torment him more. And maybe that’s why it seems like she’s almost blind to his other deeds as well. Rumple already knows that the things he has done aren’t pretty, so there’s no reason to scold.
I’ve never said it needed to be a scolding though. So long as Rumple pushes it into the past he doesn’t face his actions, which have been terrible. He has murdered, many times, for a whole host of reasons. He can’t just say “I was different then. It was the curse” and never pay the piper his pound of flesh (yes mixing metaphors!) He needs to TALK about them. Acknowledge that he has done wrong. He did it in the name of family and love and power and desire and fear but he still did them. And I still love him. But he needs to be more open about the fact that he has done wrong.
Now I get it, and agree. 🙂
And furthermore, I would like Belle to explain to Rumple what exactly is the great good she sees in him. I mean, she keeps telling him that “there is good in you”, but I don’t think Rumple really understands what she means by it. He still thinks he’s a monster. It seems like Rumple’s view of Rumple and Belle’s view of Rumple are in conflict. Perhaps that’s the problem there..
I also think that they talked about Milah while driving to the town line, given that awkward silence before Rumple’s “after everything I’ve done” speech.
Off screen conversations have little relevance, though. I don’t know what they talked about or what they didn’t talk about. I don’t know what he said/she said. Same goes for Moe and Belle. They made up??? Great? Um. I’d like to have been a fly on that wall.
I know, and same here.. It’s unfortunate that even though they were together practically for the whole first half of s2, we saw just glimpses of them, mostly when Rumple was needed by the Charmings/Regina. We really don’t know how much they actually discussed things. And after The Outsider, they haven’t had much time to really be together.
It’s true that there are issues in their relationship, and this dagger mess would be a good opportunity to bring them again on the table.
I think it’s because Belle saw that Rumple feels guilty for killing Milah and didn’t want to torment him more
Does he feel guilty about that? Did he say that? Or did it look like he felt guilty at some point? I really don’t remember getting that impression, but I seem to find something I’ve missed every time I rewatch an episode.
Well, I did get that impression. And I know I’m not the only one. I guess it’s a matter of interpretation. 🙂
They’ve given us glimpses of Belle being strong and powerful, but they’ve also shown Belle as being, in my opinion, almost blind when it comes to the Dark side of Rumple
This is why I asked if she’s a believable character. Let’s say she knows everything he’s ever done. Great. And I get that it’s true love and she sees the man behind the monster, but she doesn’t admonish him for it any more, either. When she learned how Milah died, she never even blinked. Didn’t bring it up at all after the fact. That’s troublesome, from a writing and a chhttps://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/belle/page/58/aracter standpint.
I think it’s because Belle saw that Rumple feels guilty for killing Milah and didn’t want to torment him more. And maybe that’s why it seems like she’s almost blind to his other deeds as well. Rumple already knows that the things he has done aren’t pretty, so there’s no reason to scold.
Screwball Ninja wrote an essay on the subject. That’s pretty much how I see it too.
I also think that they talked about Milah while driving to the town line, given that awkward silence before Rumple’s “after everything I’ve done” speech.
However, I do hope that Belle’s thoughts on Rumple’s dark side and the DO curse will be explored more. She said she loves all of him, even the parts that belong to the darkness, but obviously she doesn’t approve of his violent behavior. In Skin Deep, she believed it’s the DO curse that makes Rumple do bad things (“I could love him, except.. something evil has taken root in him.”-“Sounds like a curse to me.”). Does she still think it’s due to the DO curse (I personally think it has a part in it) and is just waiting for the right moment to the curse-breaking TLK (whenever Rumple is ready)? And how much does she know about the DO curse in general?
And Belle should also get some backstory outside of her relationship with Rumple. It could help us understand her character better. Belle has been around since season 1, and yet we know hardly anything about her past. It’s such a shame..
I would love a scene where Rumple gives Henry something that belonged to Nealfire because “your father wanted you to have this”. Or Henry asking Rumple about Neal..
Oh, and Belle is now officially Henry’s step-grandmother 😀 I want some “Granny Belle” scenes too!
Understand, yes. But I guess I had higher hopes for him. If loosing your son isn’t the biggest wake up call, then I don’t know what is. Rumple has been down this path before; he lost Bae and it took him 300 years to find him. Then he lost Nealfire to the portal (SSTR) and he went on a suicide mission. This time, he feels he has a place to direct his anger, so he turned it on Zelena. I don’t blame him for his anger. He’s a parent. But…like I said, higher hopes. The second he figures out that this is the very last thing Neal would EVER have wanted…*sigh*
To be honest, at first I had higher hopes too. But the more I saw the torture Rumple went through, the lower my expectations were. Not only did he lose his child, but he also was emotionally abused. So I wasn’t surprised when he lashed out. Yes, I’m disappointed, but I understand him. It wasn’t only about Bae.
Rumple claimed that he promised Neal to avenge his death. I’m curious about this. I checked the transcript of 3×15 (I can’t watch that scene without tears), and he didn’t promise anything to his dying son. In 3×18, Rumple implied that he promised Neal to stop zelena. It’s after Rumple gets back his lost memory that he starts to actually seek revenge, if I’m not missing something.. Okay, he didn’t remember why and how Neal died until the curse was broken. However, I was wondering if Rumple and Neal found a way to communicate/talk with each other in FTL (I’d hope so.. they still had so much to talk about!). I’m not saying that Neal actually asked him to kill Zelena (not that I would blame him), just that Rumple may have misinterpreted something.
Not to be nitpicky but the we don’t know what he did for those years. In between loosing Bae and Cora is a big white blank slate. We know that at some point he started making more deals instead of just outright killing. In “Lacey” Belle says that no one knows you don’t cross the Dark One, implying that Rumple’s not as evil and coldblooded as he’s like you to think. He does things in those years, to be sure, but it hasn’t been fleshed out at all.
I got the vibe from “Lacey” that Rumple’s reputation was a bit exaggerated in FTL, probably by Rumple himself, to keep people away from the DC.
It seems to me that Rumple is known mainly for his ruthless deals and manipulation, rather than actual killing. So I think what he did between losing Bae and Cora was making deals and collecting power/magical objects. And a lot of spinning and sulking! 😀
If he had killed and tortured recklessly during those years, I think he would be much darker and harder.. one thing I love about Rumple is that even after 300 years of being the Dark One, and after all those heartbreaks, he is still capable of love. TRUE love, even. I think it’s really impressive. Rumple is stronger and more courageous than he thinks. If only he would believe in himself..
That’s true but that means (to me) that he’s reducing Belle to a helpless figure. Those things that happened to Belle were terrible but Regina and Hook were still on the warpath against Rumple. The sad fact is, we don’t know what Zelena wanted after she was powerless. Regina offers her a second chance but we’ll never know if she was capable of accepting it.
Rumple tends to be overprotective of those he loves, because he is afraid to lose them. That’s one of his flaws. And at the moment, Belle is the only one he has left, so no wonder if he’s behaving a bit.. paranoid.
Oh for sure it’s a long story. And yes I suppose there is something to be said about couples having secrets from each because knowing everything might be a strain. But this isn’t a wild college party or something–we don’t know how much murder, manipulation, ect Rumple was doing in the past. And he never wanted to tell her about Milah, Hook did that (and Belle barely blinked but maybe we’ll have that for her thread when we get to it). She loves the part of him that belong to the darkness, but she’s more or less in the dark about the level of darkness.
What ever Rumple has done in the past, he obviously isn’t proud of it and is feeling guilty/remorse. Imo that’s all that matters. What’s done can’t be undone..
If he was gloating over his deeds and didn’t show any guilt, then there certainly would be a problem.
Well this I absolutely agree with. I know it’s hard to tell right now, but I used to be one of Rumple’s biggest defenders
I still am but am slowly becoming disillusioned about the writers ever pushing him past his insecurities and his fears. He needs to believe that he can have a happy ending but it might not look like what he thought–Neal and Belle. I had hoped that loosing Neal would make him want to be an even better man–try to really heal and fight for his happy ending because that’s what Neal would want. Loosing your child is going to suck everyday for the rest of your life, but I wanted him to grieve, to rage at the world, to visit the grave, to seek solace in Belle’s arms…but to not murder because THAT’s respecting Nealfire. If it had been only the death of his son, I would agree with you. But what Rumple went through was much worse. First he dies to save his son, to give him a chance at happiness. Then he is brought back against his will, at the expense of his son’s life. That’s perhaps the worst thing that can happen to a parent.. and as if that were not enough, he ends up being a puppet to the murderer of his son, and is mentally abused for several months..
That doesn’t justify Rumple’s actions, but I definitely understand him.
As for Rumple overcoming his fears and insecurities.. obviously it’s going take some time (which I think is just realistic), but I do believe that’s the goal with him, and it will be achieved by the end of the series.
He would then be the tragic character, the fallen angel. The one who tried but didnt make it… Or maybe that kind og story would be too dark and grimm for a Family show, but I would like it
Hence, my name. I find this just depressing. I may or may not be biased, but as a someone who is also struggling with self-esteem issues I really hope Rumple will succeed, as unlikely as it may seem..
I generally agree with PoM when it comes to Belle and Zelena’s death/Rumple’s lies. I can see Belle kicking him out of the house and a brief separation, but I believe they will work it out. Belle leaving Rumple forever? Not going to happen. They won’t break Beauty and the Beast. Period.
Of course, a lot depends on how and when Belle will find out..
I do understand why Rumple sought Zelena out to kill her. It wasn’t just Neal’s murder but it was also the year of abuse and torture and pain inflicted upon him. The question for me wasn’t “does Rumple have a right to be angry enough to commit murder” but “can he follow the path of the better angels and rise above his dark tendencies.” What angers me is that at the end of S3A, the answer the latter. He sacrificed his own life for the lives of his son and his true love and he died a hero, not a villain, taking his wicked papa with him. So this moment in S3B where he kills Zelena is like a giant step backwards for me. And maybe a giant step backwards and off a cliff. It’s natural that a parent wants to defend their child; we have reports all the time of a parent killing the person who murdered their child…or, if they go by the law, asking for the death penalty (here in America, I know the system works differently in your neck of the woods, Grimm). It angers me that instead of having Rumple mourn his son (he hasn’t even gone to his grave yet!), they had him seek out revenge when Rumple DARN WELL KNOWS that it’s the last thing Neal would have wanted. Neal believed his papa could be a better man, and Rumple just disappointed him again.
I would venture to claim that he killed Zelena also to protect Belle. Powerless doesn’t mean harmless. Did Zelena need magic to manipulate Neal to kill himself? Not very much. Or did Hook use magic to hurt Belle? Nope. Zelena was mentally unstable and had that sick obsession with Rumple. An obvious threat to Belle! Yes, she was in jail, but Regina seemed to be ready to let her out if she just promised to behave.
Besides, every time Rumple spared someone who hurt Belle, he got kicked in the teeth later. He spares Hook – and later the pirate shoots Belle and she loses her memory. He spares Regina – and later she turns amnesiac!Belle into Lacey..
Does – and maybe people who have better knowledge of Belle/RumBelle can clarify – know EVERYTHING that Rumple has done as the Dark One. Does she have full understanding of Rumple as the ‘coward’ (another debatable concept but I’ll leave that alone for now), and his motivations for even becoming the Dark One in the first place?
Sadly, none of this has been made clear on screen. What Belle does or does not know, just hasn’t been given to us. We know Belle knows that he killed Milah…but we don’t know if she knows *how* Rumple lost Bae or how he became the Dark One, or what he did in the years before he met her. To be fair, not a lot is known about what Rumple did in the those years. The time from loosing Bae to Cora is a big old blank.
In “The Crocodile”, he told Belle that he lost Bae because power became too important to him, and that he was the one who created the curse. To find Bae.
Does Belle need to know EVERYTHING that Rumple has done? He has lived 300 years so it would be quite a long story. 😀 Besides, Rumple obviously isn’t proud of his past and feels guilty for his actions. And Belle knows that.
And as for the dagger, I think the best person to have it is Belle. Though Cora probably smiled seeing both her daughters gaining control of the Dark One, but Belle should be the ONLY person holding Rumple’s dagger!
When Rumple was under Zelena’s control, it seemed that he wasn’t able to use his magic at all (unless Zelena ordered him to use it), regardless of whether the dagger was in her hand or on the table. So if he gives Belle the real dagger, he can’t use his powers and thus is unable (in his mind) to protect Belle. That’s why he gave her the fake dagger. Not because he doesn’t trust Belle, but because he doesn’t trust HIMSELF.
Which brings us to Rumple’s biggest problem: His incredibly low self-esteem. In mid-season finale, Rumple sacrificed his life for his family and saved the whole town in the process. And yet, he doesn’t see the good in himself. He still thinks he’s a monster. He has no faith in himself. Or rather, he has faith in the Dark One, but not in Rumplestiltskin. The Dark one gets the job done. But Rumplestiltskin? His only choice is “which corner to hide in”, as he said in “Desperate Souls”.
As long as he has that mentality, he will struggle. In order to really change, he must have faith in himself, in Rumplestiltskin. He must believe that Rumplestiltskin has good in him and can live and be succesful without magic, that all he needs is his brilliant brain, wide experience of live and loving wife/family. And he has to learn to forgive himself.
Back to the dagger. I kinda agree with WR that Belle should have it. I mean, I’d like to see her to demand Rumple to give the dagger to her as a sign of trust. And naturally he gives it to her (Zelena is dead and Hook and Regina are no longer a threat, so Belle shouldn’t be at risk), which means he can’t use magic unless Belle gives the dagger back to him. But he’s not controlled otherwise. He just has to try and live without magic.
What if Elsa then kidnaps Belle (poor girl can’t have a break!), and for some reason she can’t summon Rumple (and Elsa isn’t interested in the dagger or can’t use it)? Well, he has to rescue her only with his wits and knowledge. Without magic! That could be an instructive experience for him, and might also lead to a certain curse-breaking kiss. 😉 It would also be quite fitting with the original Snow Queen story, if they’re going to use it. With the OUAT twist, of course.
Marty, I understand what you’re saying, but I have to agree with PoM, RG, etc. that Rumbelle isn’t built on Neal’s blood. Their story began long before Neal died.
I agree with you, though, that Rumple may feel guilty for being alive. He connived and manipulated for centuries and finally ended up sacrificing his life so that his son would get a chance at happiness. He certainly didn’t intend to be brought back to watch his son dying before his eyes and then get married. So yes, I think Rumple probably has quite mixed feelings about his situation.
But I doubt he is suicidal or trying to bring Neal back. First, Neal died a hero, and I don’t think Rumple wants to take that away from him. He knows what it is like to be labeled a coward, what a terrible burden it is to live with. That’s why he drank that potion in the past. That’s why he didn’t go along with Zelena’s plan.
Second, Rumple patched things up with his son before he died. Neal forgave him and loved him again. The last time Neal “died”, Rumple had screwed things up; Lacey had brought out his darker side (which his son wasn’t happy about) and in the end he almost killed Henry. That’s why Rumple went suicidal back then, not (only) because his son died.
Oh, and he just got married. That doesn’t sound very suicidal to me.
Besides, Rumple seems to be quite reluctant to mess with the laws of magic. Didn’t Zelena say it’s against his nature or something?
I’m glad Zelena’s gone too. If the shoe had been on the other foot, and Zelena had been Rumple’s sister and killed Henry and Rumple did the give her a second chance, you just know that Regina would’ve killed her before she ever reached the cell. It’s easy for Regina to give Zelena a second chance because Zelena didn’t take away one of the most important people to Regina or force Regina to do things against her will for kicks. Zelena ordered Rumple to kill Belle, right after Rumple had to absorb Neal to save him, just because she could not because Belle was a threat. Rumple could’ve potentially lost the 2 people that mean the most to him, just because Zelena could make him do it.
Rumple was going for the kill before Regina stopped him with the dagger and gave her hypocritical “heroes don’t kill” speech. But again, Regina hadn’t suffered at Zelena’s hands like Rumple had.
Exactly. I have no doubt that Regina would have killed Zelena if she had killed Henry. Yes, it seems that Regina is becoming a better person, but it’s easy to be good and nice when everything is fine and you get everything you have dreamed of..
We don’t know what’s going on in Rumple’s head. But it’s very likely that Rumple focussed on the thought of enacting revenge on Zelena to get him through his enforced servitude. His revenge is what sustained what little free-will he had left. Rumple wasn’t thinking rationally when he enacted his revenge on Zelena so now he is trying to cover up what he’s done because he doesn’t want to risk losing Belle. However, by doing so, he’s only digging a deeper hole for himself.
Makes sense.
It’s they lying to Belle that’s going to cause the tension between RumBelle next season rather than Zelena’s death IMO. I also think that Rumple will confess to Belle about his lies either willingly because he can’t face lying to her anymore, or a situation will arise where he is forced to tell the truth.
Agreed. And I do hope Rumple will confess of his own accord, rather than being forced to it because Belle faced danger and tried to summon him with the fake dagger..
I’m optimistic that RumBelle will resolve this issue together. Rumple is sometimes going to fall off the wagon, just like Regina has done in the past and will probably do in the future in some form. Belle is not going to give up on Rumple just because he’s screwed up. Is she going to be angry? Definitely. Disappointed in him? Most likely. But is she going to call it a day and be done with him? No.
I agree again. Hearts will be broken and there will be angst, but they will survive this.
Am I the only one who is bothered by Belle not talking about the elephat in the room? This was the first time he was free since THE LOSS OF THE CENTER OF HIS UNIVERSE (in RG’s words) its not like he, like the rest of them had time to mourn or even bury him. Where was he while belle was throwing shovelfuls of dirt into his child’s grave? Oh, right, he was being tortured in his cage.
I have to admit that it did bother me a bit. I think she is perhaps feeling a little guilty about Neals death, and that’s why she isn’t able to talk about it just yet. Later, probably. At least I hope so..
