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Slurpeez

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Viewing 10 posts - 1,301 through 1,310 (of 9,714 total)
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  • May 3, 2015 at 10:29 am in reply to: Little Green Hood (Zelena is Pregnant) #303527
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    I would like to pose a follow-up question. Is there a way for any character, whether male or female, to be redeemed other than parenthood? I suppose redemption can come from romantic love, too, according to the writers. But more broadly, is there a way to be good again other than parenthood, or even romance? Are there any characters who will seek redemption for a reason besides other people? Are there any characters who seek redemption just for the sake of wanting to be better people themselves?

    [adrotate group="5"]

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 3, 2015 at 10:06 am in reply to: Little Green Hood (Zelena is Pregnant) #303523
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    I agree but you know what’s interesting, looking at your list? Apart from Rumple, none of those fathers were villains. Whereas–with the exception of Snow and Emma–all the mothers on my list were considered villains. The one truly villainous father that was also villain of the arc (Pan) was never redeemed.

    True. But I don’t think the term “sanctification” need only apply to villains. Everyone, including so-called heroes like Charming, have done some pretty terrible things (e.g. agreeing to drive Emma’s potential for darkness into baby Lily). Charming himself said he was in need of grace.

    They really like setting up a female villain and then giving that female villain some sort of mother-role that eventually gets her to redemption.

    Again, I don’t disagree insofar as there simply are way more female villains than there are male villains on this show. So, numerically speaking, there are simply going to be more mothers than fathers. Rumple is perhaps the only main male villain (other than Peter Pan). It’ll be interesting to see if the writers re-introduce Jafar as a villain to see whether or not they try and “redeem” him through fatherhood. If Jafar turns out to be Lily’s dad, I will laugh so hard, especially if Rumple dies. Jafar turning over a new leaf for his long-lost daughter Lily, would make Jafar-Lily into the new Rumple-Baelfire dynamic.

    But I do find it interesting that the writers feel the need to give Maleficent and Zelena some sort of maternal role to try and make us sympathize with them. Cruella, by contrast, never embraced motherhood and abandoned Lily, and yet remained the only truly unsympathetic female character (other than Zelena, thus far).

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 3, 2015 at 1:33 am in reply to: Little Green Hood (Zelena is Pregnant) #303510
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    Because A and E are obsessed with the idea of the sanctification of motherhood and motherhood as salvation trope.

    While I totally agree that motherhood as a Madonna trope is true to the story being told, I think that it can be expanded to fatherhood, too. Parenthood as a means of sanctification (with the exception of Peter Pan) is a recurring theme.

    Rumple and Baelfire. Most notably, Rumple’s entire life mission until S3 was to find Baelfire, and to give his son another chance at happiness.

    Baelfire and Henry. As soon as Neal discovered he was a dad, he hit the ground running to try and make up for lost time. He stepped up to the plate, and gave his life (twice) to save Henry.

    Charming, Emma, and baby Neal. Charming “died” to save baby Emma to put her in the wardrobe. He is there for her, trying to make amends, and most of all, he believes in Emma. He literally died when Snow sacrificed his heart so that he could save his unborn child from the Wicked Witch.

    Leopold and Snow White. It seems like Leo was happy and content with his daughter, and that she was his sole heir. He never presumed to try for a male heir with his second wife it seems. Snow as Leo’s golden child and heir apparent. That was a rare thing in patriarchal society like the EF.

    Jefferson and Grace. Jefferson wanted to make a better life for his daughter so he agreed to Regina’s fool-hardy mission. Yet, he eventually found his way back to his daughter.

    Geppetto and Pinocchio/August. Geppetto sent his boy into that wardrobe because he feared his son would turn back into a piece of wood or worse, when the dark curse hit. Sure, he lied, which meant Emma had to grow up without her mother. But still, he lied to save his child.

    Robin Hood and Roland. Robin risked it all to save his pregnant wife from a mysterious ailment. If it hadn’t been for Robin daring his life to steal a fairy wand from the dark one, then Marian might not have survived long enough to give birth to Roland.

    Alice and Alice’s dad from Wonderland. He didn’t believe her stories about Wonderland, but in the end, he came to see his daughter was right.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 5:58 pm in reply to: Is this the end of Rumbelle? #303495
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    And all the other married relationships are absolute disasters. Ok, maybe it makes for better drama. Or, maybe contemporary US culture is so pessimistic about marriage and commitment more generally that it gets reflected in shows like this. To me, personally, Rumbelle is deeply problematic, but it’s simply the extreme example along a spectrum of negativity, which is how relationships with any mileage under their belt are portrayed on this show — as potentially abusive, deceitful, non-committed (Robin and Marian before we knew Marian is Zelena), or seemingly solid but recently revealed as morally deluded (Snowing). In other words, if you were wondering what happens after the fairytale “happily ever after”, the answer is abuse, neglect, separation, divorce. Well, and death of course. Oh, and sometimes weird pregnancies with the wrong people.

    In reply to this point, I totally concur. Almost everyone wants a fairytale happy ending, but so few people seem to know what that actually even looks like. This is a major problem, not only on this show, but in the wider culture. Disney fairytale movies and romantic comedies all end with a wedding (as if that were the end of a relationship, rather than the beginning of a lifelong partnership). Yet, few stories show what actually comes after the wedding, or if we do see what happens, the couples in question usually end up becoming less than interesting (e.g. Snowing), going through adultery (e.g. Rumple/Milha/Hook, “Marian”/Robin/Regina or Kathryn/David/Mary Margaret), hating each other to the point of killing the other (e.g. Rumple/ Milha or Regina/Leopold) or getting divorced (e.g. Rumple/Belle). Even Snow and Charming, who are meant to be a paragon of faithful married love on the show, used each other to cast the dark curse! Snow actually killed her husband, without knowing there’d be a way to save him via magical-plot-device heart transplant. They have been reduced from an amazing power couple to backseat, bumbling idiots who may or may not commit selfish acts of villainy from time to time. Even couples who supposedly had very good off-screen marriages (David’s parents, according to Ruth in S2), turn out to not have been as great as previously thought (according to David in S4). Leopold and Eva supposedly were deeply in love, but he wasn’t even present at her deathbed. There are literally no good examples of committed, faithful, long-term marriages for anyone to look to on the show. The only person with any wisdom about parenting seems to be Granny, and even she had great difficulty raising a wolf teenager, no thanks to Regina’s curse. Oh, to be sure, there probably are good and happy marriages on the show (e.g. Philip and Aurora or Cinderella and Thomas), but we never see those couples, so they might as well not even exist.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 5:35 pm in reply to: E! Online 5/1 – Which Couple Should Fans Be Most "Worried" About?! #303493
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    Except Rumbellers. And ScarletQueen fans.

    Two of the most beautiful love stories ever told by the writers, Belle/Rumple and Will/Ana, have been disregarded or destroyed. The writers tossed these stories away and/or systematically dismantled them to the point of being unrecognizable! And for what??? *heads desk*

    Hah, I’m sure CaptainSwaners would argue that just getting together in the first place was the couple’s main obstacle. Though that doesn’t mean they won’t face more in the future.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 4:32 pm in reply to: Is this the end of Rumbelle? #303490
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    Sadly, I don’t think OUAT gives a flying hoot about fulfilling the promises they made to their fans. This doesn’t mean that they won’t put them back together — they might. It just means that they couldn’t care less if in the audience’s mind, the relationship has died. They’ll cobble it back together and let it run around like some demented Frankenstein’s monster. And call it a day.

    THIS! The writers don’t care, which is sad! I completely understand people holding on and wanting to believe in the promise, since this is a show that is meant to be about fairytale endings. But I will say that as a disappointed fan of Neal, I no longer believe these writers are aiming for a happy ending. And the more I think about it, I think Rumbelle was always going to be a tragic ship. I know people were probably expecting Beauty and the Beast fairytale ending, but I wonder if the writers just originally planned for Belle to have died. It was only due to popular demand that Emilie de Ravin was even promoted to series regular in S2. Since then, I think the writers just haven’t wanted to tell the story that the fans of Rumbelle desired, because the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

    After Neal died, the writers decided to forget about all of Rumple’s character growth and sacrifice. They reset Rumple’s character, but instead of showing his descent and struggle with darkness as he lost a moral grip, they had him just go straight back into full villain mode. And Belle got in the way of that. So, the writers instead went down the path of an emotionally abusive relationship and showed the destruction of a marriage. I was all for Rumbelle once, and I enjoyed Skin Deep, but I didn’t want them to get married until after Rumple’s dark one curse has been lifted by TLK. Until then, it was always going to be an unhealthy relationship because Rumple is an addict and he has all the power in the relationship. Belle was put in the subordinate and weaker role of being his enabler by turning a blind eye. That was why I actually was glad when Belle stood up for herself and left that unhealthy dynamic, because Rumple mistreated her repeatedly (and still is like when he tricked her to get back into town and to get his dagger back). Rumple is like Golem  with the ring; the dagger is the dark one’s “precious.” Until Rumple chooses Belle over power, (something I no longer have hope over), I don’t think there can ever be a romantic reconciliation, nor should there be one. And I think Rumple’s days are numbered, such that even if Rumple chooses Belle over magic in the end, he might still die a mortal death.

    This isn’t the only example where OUAT drops the ball in this department. Arguably the bigger example is how a show that was about family, and children and parents became primarily about romantic ships. So Henry, Roland, and even the relationships of the “middle” generation to their parents have practically disappeared. The only way this now figures in the show is as plot device: “Lo and behold, these two people are secretly RELATED!”

    This is the biggest sticking point I have with this show. All of the relationships between parents and their children have been put on the back burner (e.g. Emma and Henry, Regina and Henry), totally taken through the ringer (e.g. Snow, Charming and Emma), or totally ended due to a major death (e.g. Rumple and Neal, Neal and Henry). Any potential grandparent-grandchild relationship has also been glossed over in favor of “drama” (e.g. Rumple and Henry, the Charmings and Henry).

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 4:01 pm in reply to: Little Green Hood (Zelena is Pregnant) #303487
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    “If anything could turn Zelena into a more sympathetic character–it’s a baby”

    From the above interview.

    NOPE NOPE NOPE.

    That’s not how this works, boys! Zelena raping a man with the intention of getting pregnant and using that baby out of spite does not make my sympathize with her. It makes me sympathize with the BABY.

    ^ Seriously, the pregnancy is “real”? Egad! I wish these writers would stop trying to force sympathy for wicked people who commit vile acts like rape and murder. Parenthood is not a magic cure-all. Just because a person has the physical ability to reproduce does not mean she or he would make a good parent. There are just some people who would make terrible parents, and Zelena is one of them. The baby, an innocent, has done nothing to be brought up by this sociopath rapist and murderer. This is a case in which the father should unreservedly be given full custody. I have ZERO sympathy for Zelena! NONE. All the sympathy is for the baby.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 1:28 pm in reply to: E! Online 5/1 – Which Couple Should Fans Be Most "Worried" About?! #303465
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    I wish this show did not rely on shipping drama to carry it. The story is so plot-driven now, that characters are merely reacting to increasingly ridiculous scenarios (e.g. “Marian” is Zelena). The only couples I really cared about are already parted, by death or by circumstance. Even a couple who already had their happy ending on a spin-off show has been torn asunder. I have some major qualms with the writers’ portrayal of what “true love” even is now. Plus, the show has become all about shipping drama, which I find unfortunate and boring. The most important relationships of the show (e.g. the relationships between parents and their children) have been put on the back burner in favor of romantic relationships. That isn’t the show I thought I was signing up for in S1.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 2, 2015 at 10:31 am in reply to: Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire #303449
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    A lot of people criticized the very idea of SF, claiming that pair was only about Henry, rather than Emma. That wasn’t true, however, since it was mostly about Emma an Neal’s professed love for each other, in addition to their mutual love for their son. While a child may be very important to a relationship, it’s certainly not the only factor; but when a relationship like CS doesn’t even consider a child’s feelings whatsoever, then that becomes problematic. The bad step-parent is a classic fairytale trope for a reason.

    I think that there are good step-parents. My mom’s step-mom is the perfect example a wonderful, loving step-mom, but that is because she treats my mother like her own daughter. By contrast, there are some step-parents who truly dislike their step-kids, and vice-verse. If Graham had lived, I would’ve shipped him and Emma (assuming Emma had decided not to get back with Neal). Graham clearly cared about Henry, even before Graham developed feelings for Emma, and Graham would’ve been a great step-dad to Henry. For similar reasons, I actually think Robin Hood is a good choice of step-father for Henry (i.e. Robin is a good father to Roland, and I think he’d care for Henry independently of his love for Regina).

    However, I just never could see Hook as a good step-father. Why? Just look at how bad a step-dad Hook was to Baelfire, having twice abandoned him; Milha ran off with Hook, leaving her young son behind, and then when he had a second chance to do right by Milha’s son, he blew it. Hook handed Bae over to a demon-boy. Hook then pursued the mother of his step-son’s kid. So messed up.

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

    May 1, 2015 at 2:39 pm in reply to: Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire #303403
    Slurpeez
    Participant

    THIS

    "That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

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