[surayya]

🙂 Really like this vid 🙂

[surayya]

One little thing that’s been bothering me, re Hook/Emma/Killian’s little romp, it was said (on the podcast) that Hook drinking and womanising in the pub was acting out of character. Can someone please tell me how a pirate BEING A PIRATE is acting out of character?? FFS, he’s been in Neverland for YEARS I think he’s allowed to get back into the swing of his old life. I’d say he’s pretty stoked to be away from that horrible place. The argument was ‘shouldn’t he be focussed on his revenge, getting the dagger, blah blah?’ Well yes, but he’s not allowed a night off? Give him time to work out where the dagger is first! He can’t use Belle as a tool in getting revenge on the Dark One (as shown in Queen of Hearts?) if 1, he doesn’t know she’s even associated with said DO and 2, the Queen hasn’t kidnapped her yet!
Anyway, I just needed to get that off my chest 🙂

Now I’m glad I havent listened to the movie podcast…. So over having everything he does being touted as OOC or bad or wrong or whatever negative spin they care to come up with- I mean really?!… whats he supposed to do?! It’s a friggn FANTASY show- he is a pirate! A pirate whom has already figured out how to kill him, he simply needs to ‘locate’ him!
Like you say, how he’s supposed to find out where to actually locate the Dark One to exact his vengeance!? Pretty sure Fairy Godmothers are Not, nor have ever been, in the habit of telling pirates how to off people, let-a-lone Dark One’s o.O

Oh, that’s the other thing that bugs me the whole Hook perpetuating “rape culture” & misogyny etc. thing …. HELLO! It’s a friggn FAMILY, FANTASY, DRAMA- lets be real here, there is NO way a flippn FAMILY show is going to be allowed to go into contentious topics like rape culture & men treating women in overtly misogynistic ways- they are Not geared towards the 10pm/ Adults only time slot for example- they are pretty much marketed towards families during prime time family viewing hour/s o.O

[surayya]

Epona_610
Participant
I never understood that either–wouldn’t it be easier for her to fulfill her destiny if she had someone with her, guiding her or whatever? Isn’t that what August/Pinocchio was supposed to do when he went through the wardrobe anyway? I think A&E have said something like “he didn’t have any choice”, so maybe I’m missing something, but I would think that if you really loved someone you wouldn’t let some guy talk you into abandoning them. And of course he didn’t go after her either when he knew he could. Even if he really didn’t have any choice in leaving the first time, that choice speaks volumes.

I think they actually said “bad things would have happened” (at least thats what SF shippers have said since sometime last season).

For me comes down to- Neal wasnt actually important enough to the overall story to really have a ‘logical or not, back story’ reason behind that choice. So we’ll just go with a general & overly vague “Bad things would have happened” as an explanation… I mean ok? So what about the 2nd time…because he was to much of a coward (paralleling Rumple there again I guess), to go find her? o.O

I mean for me personally when the creators let it out that they considered changing whom Bae/Neal where, that to me screams “character not that relevant to the overall story we are telling”.

Another random-but-related thing I’ve never understood: why on earth would that typewriter in a box with one sentence typed on a piece of paper do more to convince Neal than August just saying ” I know you’re Baelfire.” Either way, it seemed way too easy to convince Neal to leave. I know they only have so much time per episode, but still…

UGH! I HATE that typewriter… I thought they were going to explain that, but I doubt they will now seeming as Neal is gone now.
Again I simply swing back to “not important enough to the story being told to bother putting in effort of telling the story behind the actions”.

[surayya]

Oh, guys, do you know what A&E’s recent Hook/Emma comments mean???
Our insistence that Hook DELIBERATELY THREW that sword ‘fight’ with Emma- he NEVER had any intention of Killing her & the same can be said of the jail cell- she was with Mulan & SW.
He wasnt happy about Emma betraying him like she did (justified or not), so paid her back in kind, however when he could have “easily” taken her down, he chooses not to, not only that but he has the skill to pause his ‘duel’ with Emma to rescue Aurora’s heart & give it to someone he knows will return it to her.

*Happy Sigh* Life is good folks- so much ship validation on so many levels 🙂

I also loved how the magic bean which has in a way represent them, was also used again to allow Killy to return to Emma…. again (full of so much possibility, life & usefulness lol) 😉

Just found this little tidbit & had to laugh given what our discussion has revolved around today:

Hook [to Emma, during their sword fight]: “Normally, I prefer to do other more enjoyable activities with a woman on her back.”
If Hook ever needs someone to do them with him, he should feel free to give us a call

Them & me both lol 😛

[surayya]

I’m not necessarily going to lump SF fans with anti-Hook fans. But I will address those that argue both points. The irony is, the anti-Hook/SF fans are incredibly vocal, probably more vocal than those that are pro-SF and don’t really care either way about Hook. Which is unfortunate. Because though I like Neal, I like him far less because of these ‘fans’ who feel the need to bash other characters on the show, especially the one they presume is competition for their character/ship.
The anti-Hook people want to argue that he’s a misogynist and will go as far as to insinuate or incorporate the concept of rape with him. I have enormous issue with this. Those concepts should NEVER be taken lightly. And we’ve discussed this, but I just have GOT to get this off my chest because it’s bothering me to no end, and god knows we’ve been faced with it thoughout the forum/fandom.

Let’s break a little bit of OUAT history down, and do a little math. Emma broke the curse 28 years after her birth. Henry was 10 when he found Emma. So…that means Emma was 18 when she gave birth to Henry. Gestation is approximately 35-40 weeks, so…even if Emma had Henry on the last day of her 18th year, she still was barely 18 when she got pregnant. Which also means Emma and Neal were either together for an EXTREMELY short period of time before she got pregnant, or they got together when she was 17.

We’ve never really been able to pinpoint Neal’s exact age but the general consensus is he’s about early-mid 20s when he and Emma meet. The most common age I’ve seen, based on his wanted poster and whatnot is 24.

Emma: 17. Neal: 24.
What does Neal ask upon their first meeting? He asks Emma, a 17 year old, out for drinks. Is this appropriate? No. She’s underage. He encourages the underage Emma to steal. Appropriate? No. Should a 24 year old know better and be acting responsibly? Yes. They obviously become a couple and participate in, ahem, relations, since a child is concieved in said loving relationship. HE’S 24. SHE’S 17. When you’re 30 and he’s 37, 7 years isn’t too much of an age difference. When you’re 17, I don’t care if you went to church every Sunday with your loving parents and siblings or grew up on the streets – the age difference is ENORMOUS. And completely, utterly inappropriate.

And the people who support this relatiomship, rationalize this relationship, argue it’s foundation is perfectly healthy, want to accuse Hook of misogyny and ‘rape’. Now, I’m not stupid. I know the Hook we first met was Captain Innuendo. And he didn’t direct this only toward Emma – he was an equal opportunity…’innuendo-ist’. And he did some pretty nasty things in the name of love and revenge. But he also realized the err of his ways, and consciously made a decision to change and to become a better man. Did that stop him from flirting with Emma? No. Why should it? Flirting – especially between two consenting adults (and to suggest it’s not consenting is nonsense) is not only acceptable, it’s FUN! And a part of modern day courtship! Emma could have said no. And the pirate with a code would’ve backed off. But she didn’t. She consciously included him and incorporated him into her life – in S2 when they left for NL, throughout 3A (I seem to remember a kiss in there somewhere – again, perhaps instigated by flirting but see my prior comment), and in 3B.

Ok. This is ridiculously long. But I’ve tried for so long to try to understand the ‘other side of the coin’ and have seen just a little too much ugly in return. But now it’s off my chest, so I feel so much better. Methinks I will watch our CANON COUPLE go to a ball, do some hiney kicking and true lovin’ with a much lighter disposition. 🙂

You said it sooooooo much better than I ever could @Jenna_B, I totally agree 🙂

& LOL @KJ – you guy, you 😉

[surayya]

I find it insulting, as a woman, to be “educated” and “informed” on the so-called “rape culture” inflicted on us by a fictional tv show. I’m sorry, should I and the thousands of other female CS shippers be handing in their “lady” cards because they disagree? Do you honestly think that Jane or Kalinda or Christine would let Adam and Eddy get away with any kind of misogynistic behaviour? The female writers are Hook’s biggest fans! The haters don’t get to define what other viewers, be it women or men, find offensive. And the aggression they’ve shown in harassing Adam and Eddy just goes to show what a bunch of idiots they are. I want to share a post I read a while ago by ladyhacksaway on tumblr that addressed the issue of the so called “Rape Culture” on Once. Maybe the haters should be reading this instead of passing around their crap as fact. It has some inappropriate language so I’ll post the link, but I want to share one (edited) paragraph, because it specifically applies to Hook.

Yes, that is a very good point raised by someone the victim of such a crime… Brings a whole new level of totally idiocy to the haters arguments… I sometimes wonder if they even bother looking up the definitions of some of the crimes they accuse Hook of…. I mean I have yet to see Hook “hate” a women because she’s a women, yet that is the definition of a misogynist!LMAO!
I always find it entertaining (to a point) to point out how interpretations & meanings can be easily mistaken in todays culture, when talking to other shippers- or even just people in general tbh.

For instance When we say CaptainInnuendo, we are referring to captain of “sexual innuendos”- of which these have acquired a specific meaning, namely that of a “risqué” double entendre, by playing on a possibly sexual interpretation of an otherwise innocent uttering. Ie. “We need to go deeper” can be seen as both a request for further inquiry on any given issue or a request to go deeper into an orifice.

This is different than straight innuendo, which means “an indirect remark about somebody or something, usually suggesting something bad, mean or rude; the use of which is often used to express disapproval.

Now add in context & Hook obviously hasnt used innuendo’s to “express disapproval” of any women he’s meet- it’s actually been quite the opposite- does that make it acceptable, not really- esp if it isnt wanted/ taken for what it is (ie. Snow), does it make him a noble man- of course not, but nor does it make him a misogynist or rapist either.

I mean seriously, if you are going to hate on something or someone, at least get the base ‘facts’ at the core of your argument/s straight 1st.

[surayya]

I wish they had kept Bae/Neal as separate characters. As great as MRJ is an actor, he brought nothing of Bae’s original character to the story (that’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it). They could have waited to introduce Neal (and not as Emma’s ex) by having Dylan Schmidt come back for some backstory and as the actor is getting older, have him show Bae’s progression into becoming the adult Neal. As for showing Emma’s backstory in Tallahasse, any random actor could have filled that role, and I’ll bet you if that had been the case, all of the SF shippers would be hating on him for the rotten way he ditched Emma. But hey, being Rumples son earns you an automatic halo, no matter how abhorrently you behave.

Amen!

Remember, Neal could have gone after Emma in Broken after the curse was broken but he stayed away. And Emma knows that he knew about the curse. JMo confirmed that.

This is going to sound very catty- but right now, in this instant (after seeing some of the crud being touted about), I dont care- Gosh, you forget- We’re supposed to have selective memories, remember?! He’s Rumple’s son & got teenage Emma pregant, so we HAVE to love him, forgive him no matter what & hate any other suitor for Emma- no matter if they’ve clearly been shown from the word go that they are the better person for her in every way, shape & form 😉 :p

[surayya]

So…I just had to pop in and point out another instance of blatant hypocrisy among the Hook haters (in addition to the whole misogyny thing)–it hit me because I keep seeing cutesy references (mostly on Tumblr) to the whole tumblers (haha) lock-picking flashback with Neal. That’s nice and all, but how is it super cute for Neal to teach Emma (who was still a minor when they met) all kinds of criminal behavior while it’s positively outrageous for Hook to teach Henry about loaded dice? Honestly I didn’t particularly like that scene either, but cheating at dice isn’t much compared to grand larceny, trespassing, and breaking and entering. Just saying.
(And for the record, I don’t hate Neal. I do strongly dislike blatant hypocrisy and poorly-thought-out rants.)

I’m with you & good catch there! I’m also very just & cant stand double standards at all, so I totally understand what you mean about not hating Neal, but hating the overt hypocrisy his character is elevated under by some within the fandom.

[surayya]

^^^ I’m glad I can do that for you all lol It’s hard to argue with some people a lot of the time because when i try to lay in how it looks from a guy’s point of view the never want to hear it!

WOW! Really?! That really does go to show how much some people simply want to be “right” rather than informed o.O It’s also more than a little sad.

[surayya]

Hi J! Yay! Another de-lurker 😉 Welcome to the fun 🙂

Lurker here, hi :). The finale was everything I hoped it would be, and I’ve rewatched it more times than I care to admit to. My favorite scenes were with past Hook. I loved Killian creeping around behind them, it reminded me of Moulin Rouge. I can’t even with Saint Neal, so I won’t. I notice a lot of the people talking about rape culture and Hook being a misogynist, are the same ones who believe he stole Milah. Which he didn’t, she made a choice – which seems to only be okay for a woman to make as long as all the other women in the world agree with her. Apparently we all should just stay in loveless relationships because… history? Emma was walled off, the only way to break through that is by being there for her so that she realizes he isn’t going anywhere. He never forced her and she never said no. The one unwelcomed kiss – she kicked him in the junk. She is hardly a delicate flower. I don’t even know if I made sense, I’m annoyed.

I totally agree with you!

First of all, let me say WOW! You guys are on a roll! It’s going to take a while to read thru all the posts but I wanted to put this here for you to read, just a continuation of the Past Hook vs Killian theme. From http://boyfriendhook.tumblr.com/post/85736139444/also-i-dont-really-know-how-to-word-this-or-if Also, I don’t really know how to word this or if this will make any sense at all. I could probably write a meta about it, but I’m lazy so you have to deal with this. The past!Hook/Emma scene was probably — hands down — my most favorite part of an episode to date. I love the kisses, I love the witty remarks between them, but that scene was everything. Why, you ask? Because it shows how quick Hook falls, no matter when they meet. That was what I initially loved about the pair. In The Doctor and Tallahassee, he falls for her so quickly, he’d do anything she asked of him, be of use in whatever way (once he stops with his ridiculous blacksmith ruse). He drops his whole revenge desires, his work with Cora, because of Emma. Of course, then she goes and ruins it all and can’t handle the way she feels (I can’t be wrong about you bla bla these feels are too much to handle). My favorite line from the entire series, thus far, I think, is Killian’s “Otherwise, I’d remember that damn bar wench I kissed. I know how you kiss. I’d have gone after her. But I didn’t. My life went on, exactly the same as before.” It’s really, quite frankly, no different than his line in the Echo Cave… “Until I met you.” Because she’s it for him. His entire life begins again when he meets her. She’s the light at the end of his tunnel. People have always acted like Hook is some massive villain or some terrible evil, but did you see him as past!Hook with Emma? He cleared out everyone else and was sitting there with her — completely focused on her. Sure, he wanted to do her, but let’s be real, she wasn’t the least bit against it. They go back to the Rolly Joger and she tells him what to do — the CAPTAIN of the ship, was just told what to do by a bar wench. And then, AND THEN, when she “got tired of waiting”, he apologized for not giving her his prompt attention! I mean, that Hook’s far more lusty and raring to go with ours, but that’s because our Killian has had more time to mature, more time to grow. But, whether they meet in the past or they meet in a slain camp of villagers — Hook falls for Emma. Just harking back to what A and E said, that Hook was “always” meant for Emma. I’d like to believe that he’d fall for no matter when he met her because they were always meant to be each others TL.

Thanks for posting that here @callmeLola! How very true it is- Hook was “destined” for Emma- time & place are irrelevant, past loves are irrelevant as TL happens were & as it should or things get VERY messy, very quickly, as I’m sure OQ will show. I love OQ, not to the same degree, nor with the same intensity as CS, but I do hope they will get the HEA together- call me hopeless romantic at heart lol 😉 I do wonder if thats why Neal was no longer required, because OQ will better show that TL couples should be together otherwise “bad” stuff will happen to them. I mean we already saw what happened to Emma, what she went through being with Neal, but now she has a chance at happiness with her TL/Killy, yet it wasnt her actions, nor Killy’s originally that got them to that point (that was Rumple on both counts). With OQ however, it comes down to Regina’s choice/action not to follow through with TL & the consequences of that decision. So it’d make sense for that ship to show how TL should be fought for & why.

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