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@ Captain Eala – Totally get where you are coming from on the triangle now- I was was thinking ‘where did I say SF = TL’??? LOL 😉
I agree to a certain point with you on what they are doing- (I havent heard Adam & Eddy play down the triangle to date… in fact I’ve heard them talk more about SF than I have CS TBH- until just before Ep5 that is), so I guess time will tell on that score- I hope you are right, I want CS to happen, but I want it as endgame over it happening now (both would be nice though 😉 ) & not Emma ditching Killian, him regressing back into Hook & we end up with the male, pirate version of Regina last season (that flip flopping REALLY drove me nuts!)
I will also play devils advocate & say the show has pointed out clearly that Emma still has deep feelings for/over Neal (Which like you, I will be royally devastated & ticked off if they have her falling for Neal again- given all her character growth). So there is “something” there, I just hope they have her handle it as the Emma we’ve all come to love & not as a star struck teenager, pining for her 1st love. I do actually think that Emma was “truly” IN love with Neal (not TL mind you, just truly “IN” love), which is why she spent 2yrs in Tallahassee waiting/looking for him (TL would have had her never stop looking, so it wasnt TL IMO) after he let her go to jail- Emma had to have known why she was there- the cop that arrested her mentioned “her boy friend” & “watches” etc & she’s not an idiot.
There is one thing that bugs me looking back on S2 & I think they did this on purpose (to help Neal’s case)- I think they should have cast a younger actress as Emma, because she was supposed to be just 16/17yrs old when she meet Neal, then went to jail, then had Henry & gave him up at no more than 18yrs old. I dont think they cast a younger actress, because if they did, few if anyone, would be able to forgive Neal so lightly for what happened (even if they cast a younger actor to play him)- I mean if you imagine a 16/17yr old girl going through what Emma went through with Neal, jail, giving birth & giving her baby away, it becomes a whole lot more profound, than seeing a 30+ yr old going through it. Dont get me wrong JMo play her role well, but it didnt have the impact an age appropriate actress would have IMO, so I dont think they want people to ‘hate’ the idea of SF either (not that that has stopped many of us from doing so anyway lol :p )
[adrotate group="5"]But you see, IF Neal is Emma’s TL (lol) WHY (logically and without shipper goggles on) would they establish Killian as a viable love interest AT ALL? If Neal is Emma’s TL then shouldn’t he ALREADY be well established as a character by this point? They waited to introduce Neal in the episode where Emma meets Hook, and right off the bat Neal created a barrier between Captain Swan.
That same can be said of SF though & it has been … to death! I promise you that 😉 . As to your 1st point, I have NEVER, EVER said Neal & Emma are or were TL- not once, because I dont feel they fit the definition of TL as the show has thus far portrayed it.
Neal was simply the 1st person whom Emma opened up to/dropped her walls & let him in, then fell in love with & he loved her back- it wasnt TL IMO, or there is no way he’d have stayed away for so long, nor moved onto a relationship with Tamara- it’s that simple really. So they have to set the triangle up- Neal is Henry’s father (as a tie to Emma), but hurt her deeply- however both have said they still have feelings for the other. Hook is no relation, but was a villain (I personally see him more of an anti hero), so needs redeeming & some strong connecting to Emma, before they can have a viable triangle (which they have done, Killian has now saved her father’s life).
IF Neal is Emma’s TL then Killian shouldn‘t stand a chance. Swanfire have a plethora of obstacles to get through already, they do not need Killian in the mix. A man who loves her, will do anything for her, understands her, puts her needs above his own and will fight for her. But Captain Swan needs Neal to create angst.
Again- I NEVER said SF are or were TL, so I feel this is invalid to the point I was making 🙂
Emma has KISSED Killian despite the fact that her supposed TL has just died. Kissing is a huge deal to her, it’s not something she does lightly. And we have basically been hit over the head with the fact that we’re going to get MORE kisses. And Neal is coming back in 3×06. We’re going to get more kisses DESPITE the fact that Neal, Emma’s supposed TL, will be back in the picture.
Well so far ALL the actors involved have said there is no more kissing- at least not until AFTER Henry is saved, so well I think Emma’s “One time thing” is some serious denial on her part 😉 I dont think there is going to be much CS snogging until after they’ve saved Henry & even then, Emma will probably pull back as the dynamics will change now Henry is back in the picture- I dont want them running around lip locking every 5 steps like randy teenagers- but that’s just my opinion 😉
Logically it makes no sense to me that if Neal is Emma’s True Love that she would fall for Killian at all, but she has. JMo has basically said that Emma is drawn to both of them and has feelings for both. When Neal comes back into the picture, her feelings for Killian aren’t going to just disappear. If Emma is supposedly IN TRUE LOVE with Neal, then it should be no contest. Neal would win hands down. Killian just would not figure into the equation whatsoever. It would be all about how Neal and Emma having to repair their relationship, and a mere (LOL) kiss would not affect anything.
Again – they arent TL in my eyes, which is WHY they have to set up the triangle, so these points only validate my reasoning in the above post further.
BUT she is equally torn between the two of them, and she isn’t even in love with Killian yet. When she realises she is, this intangible triangle will be gone. I say intangible because it’s nothing more than Killian and Emma, and both having painful ties to Neal.
That is only how we see it at this point- I want it to be true, but Emma has clearly said she still has unresolved feelings for Neal- so he still has a ‘chance’ (not that I think he deserves one!) We dont know if they will ‘back’ Neal, as they have done Killian in the next half, to even the playing field with Emma, we dont know what they will do yet…. until the next half gets here & I see what they are doing with Neal if anything I’m not going to count him out entirely. I have already said I agree with you on Neal’s character to date, I think most of us feel the same way about his character. Also remember Adam & Eddy said clearly last year Emma would have multiple suitors- she was going to go through a sort of shadowing of teenage dating, when you shop for what makes you happiest/ who’s the right fit for you etc. We didnt get that because Colin broke & was out of action, so we are getting this season instead, if they’d pushed Neal last season, it’d be very hard to get fans interested in Hook/Killian at all, as we’d all know Neal was it/ endgame.
And then there are the spoiler pictures for 3×10 where they’re back in SB, and CS are STILL working as a team, side by side, even though Neal is around. If Neal and Emma are TL then do you really think Neal would leave her side again when *stuff* is going down? When he has already abandoned her once before and is trying to make up for it? Nah. If it’s actually a triangle, do you think Neal would allow Killian to have ANY advantage by working with Emma without Neal around? Nah. So yeah, even if they develop Neal’s character to the moon and back in 3×12-3×22, I still won’t see him as a viable competitor to Emma’s heart. Seriously, I have no doubts as to the endgame-ness of our ship. I have complete faith in the story they’re telling.
But again it’s seems you assume I think SF are TL- Again I don’t, otherwise like you say a triangle wouldnt be unnecessary, so your point again only proves what I’ve already said- they NEEDED to set Hook up as a viable love interest this season as (atm) Neither Hook or Neal are Emma’s TL- could Killian become/ be proven to be her TL- of course, but right now we dont know that. Personally feel making Killian her TL would be an awesome story line, as it’d create drama within the family & extended family dynamics, which = more storytelling options- but that’s just my opinion 😉
I also agree that we need to see Neal deal with what went down with Tamara- if we dont Neal is going to be an even worse plot device than August/Pino was (with his magical anti-aging exit) :/
@ Captain Eala – I actually meant Neal’s character is major to/played a major role in, who/how Emma is now- not that he is a major character (atm) 🙂
Hey, I don’t disagree with you on what the degree of Neal’s plot or character is at this point, but I wont rule out his playing a much larger role AFTER having established Hook as a viable love interest (this is a little of where my concern lies).
Now this is just My Own Personal take on the matter- If you think about it logically (without shipping goggles on 😉 ), they set Emma & Neal up (a little) last season, with Snow telling Emma how it would ‘look’ if she pursued the Tamara angle & showing a little of their history (which got some fans WANTING him to be redeemed & be HEA with Emma & Henry, in other words- MANY fans no longer had so much of a problem with how Emma felt about what happened between them & she’d ‘get over it’ eventually IF Neal tried hard enough) etc. & I KNOW the ‘I love you’ was something she said thinking she’d never see him again/he’d be dead, but we all know Emma still ‘loves’ Neal (I’m not saying it’s TL or even a healthy love), but we all know she does still have strong feelings for him- so they dont need to hammer us with that this half of the season (aside from the few nods to it we’ve had), because we already know how she feels & they have hammered us with how Neal feels this season as well (even if I think that’s been done poorly). What they do have to do, is set Hook up as a “viable” love interest NOW (yes we CS lovers saw their connection last season, but Colin broke & we didnt get to deepen that connection/relationship much at all, so Hook wasn’t the average viewers ‘obvious’ choice of character for a love triangle), which is what we have this season so far & I think that will be pushed further still yet (Many fans still have a problem with him hitting & shooting Belle- which I dont understand personally because Regina, Rumple& Cora have done the same things with magic & worse, yet get cut WAY more slack for it :/ ). So what I’m saying is we will get a lot of Hook/Emma interaction this half of the season as a matter of course- no matter what the endgame is they have in store, because we HAVE to have it for a triangle to work in the 1st place, otherwise we have 2 characters who dont really deserve her anyway.
Again, this is just how I see things as they stand now, with regards to the story telling- as I’ve already said, I dont want a SF endgame, I want CS & will be happy for A&E to pair Killian & Emma next week IF they are endgame, not if Hook is just Emma’s stepping stone to eventual SF (which I dont see happening, with the way things stand right now) 🙂
@ Rumplesgirl- Thank you 🙂
But you see this is the beauty of it. A+E have made it more than clear that they don’t do fan service i.e. they’re not going to change their original story just because it’s something the fans want. SO logically you can follow up on this by saying that they’re going to write characters and stories in such a way to have people rooting for a certain character over another eg. Hook over Neal. They have made Killian into a fully rounded character, with a story and experiences. Whereas with Neal? Nada
Yes, they have- However, they do consider changing things up depending on how it’s received (ie changing who Neal was & Mulan- I forget the couple of other things now). It might not be for major plot stuff (well ok Neal’s story is),but it is still to service the fans.
Logically you also have to consider that we haven’t got to the end of the season yet, none of us know what they have in store for Neal in the back half- for all we know Emma & Neal could end up trapped somewhere together in the 2nd half *shudders*- who knows lol. As long as Hook is about & Emma is about CS will happen- we just have different ideas on when & I’m honestly happy to be wrong & have them together this season- as long as it’s not just Emma harking back to teenage dating/BF & trying out who fits her & who doesnt (like what was meant to happen last season BEFORE Colin broke himself & couldn’t film) 😉
Questions: (sorry its off topic, but it is for the topic). Why when I submit a post does it refresh back to pg 1- Is it just me or is that normal now? & how do we spoiler tag now? I’m so confused lol
@ Captain Eala – WOW, was that really the stats of the FB page for Good Form & the Kiss! (I have kept off of all but 2 or 3 trusted sites/pages since there was so much Hook bashing going on before the season started & I got sick of it all). That is amazing & pretty much shows what most the fans/viewers want, so that to me is even more of an indicator than anything else- they’d risk loosing a massive chuck of the fandom by resolving Hook/Killian with a side character & phasing him out (my worst nightmare for the show- I LOVE Hook/Killian lol).
You also make a good point with Mulan too- I do wonder if she will end up Bi-sexual though, or if we have pretty much seen the last of FTL (aside from Robin) characters for a while/altogether (since Jamie is a regular/main character on another show) & unless everyone goes back to FTL there is probably little point in telling their stories anymore.
Yes I read that essay & totally agree with it too & I wont complain if CS is an ‘unofficial’ item this season or next 😉 I do feel Hook/Killian should be there for her in the best friend role, if they dont further the CS plot this season, at least then no one could say it’s just a ‘fling’ for Hook…. Or Emma.
Oh yes, I totally agree Emma will forgive Neal- but forgiveness & opening her heart, giving all her trust, faith & love for TL or a ‘HEA’ to the person who wounded her so deeply, are 2 very different things IMO. The 1st simply requires acceptance &/or understanding of past actions, that wont be held over the other person (it doesnt negate the damage done), the 2nd requires a level of trust & faith in the other party, that I just dont personally see as plausible for Emma.
I guess I REALLY want Emma to have love like Snowing has (not the same as Snowing- although now I actually think about it CS & Snowing situations & even characters to a certain extent, are VERY similar lol), but the same depth & loyalty from her eventual partner as Snow has from Charming. I just really feel she deserves it & Killian fits that bill exactly!
LOL- yes well I hope to be that confident soon too lol 😉
Hello! To be honest after 3×02 I fully expected the kiss. Once I watched 3×02 again with my “analysis” goggles on and combined with things JMo had said in an interview I was pretty sure we were to expect it. And I wasn’t disappointed! It’s so funny, because we’re told over and over again that we overanalyse everything and yet we’ve been right nearly all of the time. I wasn’t officially part of the fandom in season 2 but I did predict that Hook would act like a hero in 2×22, ESPECIALLY after fighting Malificent in “The Evil Queen” because fighting dragons (she wasn’t technically a dragon but whatever) is ALWAYS the mark of a hero. ALWAYS. *whispers* Captain Swan is definitely endgame and you don’t need to worry because from week to week all the clues/signs point that way
and even though Neal is coming back and there will be a drama stuffstorm that doesn’t make it any less true!!! Yeah, I agree, to a point I expected the kiss because JMo said she was going to lol & we all know she wouldnt ‘kiss’ David lol- I just didnt expect it so soon, but boy did it do us & the Princess Bride nods proud- it has to “Rate” if not the best kiss on OUaT to date, then at least the “most passionate” kiss we’ve had so far 😉
I also agree all the clues point to CaptainSwan as end game (but not in a SwanQueen/its just us CS fans seeing what we want to see- if that makes sense?!), it’s just hard sometimes because it is disney we are dealing with (as a platform) & I’m hoping Adam & Eddy dont go all ‘bio family’ only = happy ever after, for main character Emma.
The biggest thing for me, which makes me very hopeful of CS as endgame, is Neal just isnt that likable most the time (IMO)- I just cant connect or sympathize with him as a character, which has to be done on purpose surely?!
I mean they have the character make the ‘easy’ choices, which usually cause others some sort of suffering in the end, but as the plot link above said, we have no real Neal centric plot, outside of his effects on others with-in the story, so it doesn’t exactly endear him to you (although he has his fanbase I know!) I totally Love little Bae- he’s awesome, so Neal has to be written that way on purpose- it seems a total disconnect…. I mean, I even get why Milah did what she did (I dont approve of how she went about it, but I get why she did it- Adam & Eddy made sure to point out exactly why she did what she did- which put Hook in a better light come to think of it), which is more than I can say for Neal at this point in time.
Maybe it’s just because I really dont feel someone carrying the amount of emotional scaring/damage that Emma has been shown as having, from what happened between her relationship with Neal (no matter what Neal’s intentions- I’m simply talking about what Emma FELT, Thought & lived for over a decade), should have it all magically swept away enough, that they can then go live ‘happily ever after’- there are simply some wounds that are just to deep/ have done too much damage, for to long, for one to ever ‘get over it’ with that person, in order to have the level of trust & vulnerability that TL &/or “happy ever after” requires IMO.
I will point out that I think forgiving her parents for sending her through the wardrobe, is very different to what Neal did- I dont see them as being the same at all, other than both causing her emotional damage- her parents had no idea what the out come of her growing up would be, it wasnt something they foresaw or could control, they just knew she would live & come to save them all (so I think her forgiving them for doing that is a given- it’s something she might do too, if it meant saving Henry & thousands of lives), however Neal knew what he was doing, knew how damaged she was from feeling unloved & abandoned, yet still did what he did anyway, despite how it would affect Emma (that’s not something I can see Emma choosing to do to someone when there are other options).
Lol- yes Neal coming back will = a massive “stuff storm” , I’m actually fine with that (I wont like it, but I’m fine with it)- as I say Emma needs to thrash things out with Neal & either try again or not with him, in order for her to lay that part of her life to rest, accept it & move on with more healthy relationships 🙂
I will try to have more confidence in the writers & creators- so far they are pushing CS as a good thing for Hook & I hope soon for Emma too, I think when I see Emma starting to open up & trust more around Hook/Killian, I will be 100% confident about the creators & writers doing our CS as endgame.
Hi, all- I havent posted for ages either- popped in on & off for a read, but just feel like I need to say I pretty much agree with all that’s been said.
I was surprised we got a kiss so soon into S3- I was worried at 1st (like this was our ‘treat’ before going all out SwanFire, but that doesnt seem to be the case & I’m still hoping for a Captain Swan endgame)
Karlsjr I like your observation on Milah/Hook/Emma & Cora/Rumple/Belle, very interesting & echos pretty much everything Captain Swaners have said.
I too think we’ll get a lot of SwanFire time- it’ll be hard watching Emma & Neal together, but she REALLY needs to address her past with Neal- try again with him or not, go through all the emotions of coming to term with loosing her 1st love…again & then move on from it. It should make for some lovely Snowing/Emma (& maybe even Henry) moments too. The one thing I do want to see this season with regards to Neal, is Emma TELLING her parents exactly what happened between her & Neal- how he left her & why, I think them finding Neal could be a nice opportunity for that to happen (because I dont think Henry should hear it right away- maybe later, all he thinks now is his Dad can do no wrong) & Charmings reaction to Neal over what he put Emma through- it loooonnnnngggggg over due in my eyes.
Not really anything else I can add tbh- it’s all already been said repeatedly lol.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Thanks for the support guys! Love my CaptainSwan shipmates and I am determined that this place gets back to being the safe haven it should be for us (goodness knows we could use it!)
Moving on…
I’ve been looking over transcripts (I’ll deal with screenshots etc later on, for now just looking at the quotes) and I’ve found some good stuff lately. Lots of quotes, coming right up! I’m only on 1×06 so far but looked up a couple others that related to points I wanted to make at this particular time.
One sweet thing I had nearly forgotten about with Charming: “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” His faith in love is astounding and timeless. He will ALWAYS find Snow and he knew exactly how long he’d be away from her should she go through the wardrobe with Emma. Might I also point out that 28 is far more than the 10-11 somebody else knew about and didn’t have trust in overcoming? David almost made it out of SB after breaking up with MM and trying to leave town, got his memories back as Charming, STILL KNEW all the bad stuff he did as David, but knew he had to go find Snow and that they could overcome anything because their love is THAT STRONG. Just saying. <3 his faith in true love.
Very true …. & who else do we know that holds onto his love that strongly 😉
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Emma:
Graham offering Emma a job and letting her be a part of something: “Well, here’s your chance to see it up close. There’s dental. Why don’t you think about it and stay awhile?” Awwww *sniff*Oh, the feels! I miss Graham.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Even Rumple can see how strong she is from time to time & compliments her awesomeness: “I like you Ms. Swan. You’re not afraid of me and that’s either cocky or presumptuous. Either way I’d rather have you on my side.” I <3 people who appreciate her awesomeness like Hook, Graham, & Rumple. They compliment her rather than tear her down or treat her like a child *cough Snow I love you but your little girl is not so little anymore. Glad you're starting to notice that*
Very true- on both points 😉
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Choice has been a recurring theme and is very important to many of the characters. The word is used often and in pouring over even the first few episodes, I’ve found a lot that helps to parallel CaptainSwan and why it will happen.
For one thing? The Charmings are BIG on choice:
David: “Should be doesn’t matter. Whoever married Kathryn, it’s not me. I didn’t choose her. I’m choosing you. I know you feel it, I can tell.” – Sounds a little bit like Henry there doesn’t he? 🙂
Shepherd David: “When I marry I want it to be because I choose to spend the rest of my life with someone I love.”
David: “With someone I didn’t choose! The man who chose that life, whoever married Kathryn, is gone.”
David: “But if you choose this – if you choose us – you know where I’ll be.”
Emma: “Well he left her. It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actively make a choice and now he has. That’s all you can ask for.” – THIS, a million times THIS!
* Charming chose Snow when it would have been easier and more self-preservation
* David chose MM when it would have been easier and neither would have been so vilified (even if it was all a fake obligation)
* Hook chose Emma when it would have been easier and more self-preservation (twice!)Snowing & CaptainSwan parallels <3
And of course, the icing on the cake:
Cora: “You chose her…and the consequences of that decision.”
This a million times- I cant agree with you more there!
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Now, in regards to the last one, I do acknowledge that Rumple clearly ships SF. However, he is also biased. He was right to tell Neal that he can’t love another while he holds a torch for Emma much like King George spelled out to Charming about the Snowing + Abigail triangle. George wanted his money from Midas so in that case he wanted Charming to get over Snow. Rumple wants Neal to get Tamara out of his system so that SF can happen but ultimately wants his son to be happy and he knows that Neal still clearly has feelings for Emma, I get that.
However, the fact that CORA said it (as much as I despise the woman) is important because it is a far more un-biased comment. She doesn’t want Hook working for the person trying to stop her from getting to her daughter, she wants Hook on her side and she’s disappointed that he chose Emma. She has no personal stake in who he ends up with, just what it means for getting her way right now and she’s acknowledging that this is a problem for her.
Very good point.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
Going back to my earlier argument: in the Tamara – Neal – Emma triangle Neal *NEVER* chose Emma. He chose Tamara down to the last second until she was no longer an option for him. Then and only then did he profess to wanting Emma and regretting it all these years. Tamara did not have him under some kind of spell, she just duped him for ages (poor thing has been through enough and didn’t need to be treated like that, but Emma did try to warn him repeatedly and he mocked her for it).
As to the regret thing we’ve seen that many times:
* Ruth & her husband (still no name grr) gave up James and said her husband regretted it every day til he died (did nothing)
* Milah gave up Bae and Hook said she regretted it every day til she died (did nothing)
* Snowing gave up Emma fully expecting her to find them and reunite (accomplished)
* Emma gave up Henry to give him his best chance and he found her and they were reunited (accomplished)
* Rumple gave up Bae (CLEARLY regretted it and has done something about it even though it’s not necessarily in the right way…; accomplished)
* Neal gave up Emma (twice: once for the good of everyone and to find her family; once for their son); regretted leaving her every day (did nothing); is now back in her life because she owed Rumple a favor (still chose someone else til the last second)If / when Henry gets married and has kids he better stick around cause both sides of his family CLEARLY have leaving people issues.
I’m not sure after all that how it’s not clearly set up in a specific way. Nor am I clear on how people think that Neal’s #1 priority is Emma when he puts FAMILY in general above everything else. MRJ even said in one of his interviews that family is what’s important to Bae right now. Emma is a part of it, but she isn’t the only part and I do think they will always care about each other and work their issues out, at least for Henry’s sake
Agreed (seeing it listed like that- there are so many abandonment’s in that family!) & LOL about Henry.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
We’ve seen the sacrifice thing a number of times:
* Bae was willing to go fight in the ogre wars rather than running off with Rumple adding to his cowardice
* Bae considered the Darlings to be his family and sacrificed himself and was taken to NL
* Neal sacrificed his love of Emma by letting her go to jail and cutting off all contact so she could fulfill her destiny/find her family (but knew how to find her and didn’t because he was afraid and didn’t think she’d forgive him)
* Neal sacrificed being with Emma again because he didn’t want Henry to grow up like they did (orphans)He’s been putting Henry first (one of the few things I do love about him at the moment) and so has Emma. Her only comment about Neal other than him being “gone” was asking how she would tell Henry and stating why she couldn’t let Regina die.
I realize that was a lot but I really love quotes and there have been a LOT of good ones about choice and it’s one of the things that show how similar Emma & Charming can be at times (not that there aren’t a lot of similarities between Snow & Emma as well, but I love the father/daughter stuff and how strong-willed they are when it comes to love.) Plus I think choice (and Emma’s comments regarding it) really help to show why in the end she’ll choose Hook. Happy shipping! *passes out cookies*
Edited to add:
* Emma tells Graham he’s “observant”
* Hook tells Emma she’s “quite perceptive”😀
Very good point about Emma & Charming being very similar & also a very point on why she would too.
Nice catch on the Emma parings parallel 🙂
