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@Hookian wrote:
Guys reminder to go vote in this poll if you want. 🙂
https://oncepodcast.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3599&p=51441
Thanks! 🙂 I just evened the score- 3 way tie between Rumbelle, SwanFire & CaptianSwan. I usually would have gone with Snowing, but have to support CS this time 😉
[adrotate group="5"]I’ve posted about this topic unwittingly in another thread where it came up- the difference between whether a character/s could or even should be called/considered Evil or Bad & bottom line is by definition ‘Killing’ & ‘Murder’ are 2 VERY different actions & so cant be considered mutually exclusive.
For the sake of clarity, I’m going to keep things as simple & boiled down as possible.
Killing = the act of causing death; slaying.Murder = the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
& now I will introduce the 3rd facet (which covers Snow’s actions & killing in general)
Justifiable Homicide = the killing of a human being by another person.Each of the above 3 actions all result in the death or ‘killing’ of a person- but not necessarily the ‘murder’ of a person.
Examples-
Killing encompasses taking the life of anything- from a flower to a person & for our purposes, covers the likes of battles/wars, where you have soldiers killing soldiers on the battle field- it is just that, ‘killing’. The soldiers do not necessarily ‘want’ to go out there & kill the enemy, but they will do so, if called upon to protect their country, people, rights etc
ie.
The killing is done out of duty, not a desire to kill.Justifiable Homicide, considers the surrounding circumstances of killing a ‘person’. With this, the killing is not considered a criminal or socially ‘wrong’ act, but one which is commanded or authorized by law- such as, soldiers in a time of war, commanded to kill enemy soldiers (again), a public official carrying out a death sentence because the execution is commanded by state or federal law, people whom are authorized to kill others in self-defense or in the defense of others- if the person reasonably believes that the killing is absolutely necessary in order to prevent serious harm or death to him/herself or to others & police officers may use deadly force to stop or apprehend a fleeing felon, but only if the suspect is armed or has committed a crime that involved the infliction or threatened infliction of serious injury or death.
ie.
Snow’s situation fits “Justified Homicide”, as it fit’s perfectly in the category of ‘people who are authorized (aka justified) to kill others in self-defense or in the defense of others- if said person reasonably believes that the killing is absolutely necessary in order to prevent serious harm or death to him/herself or to others- no one can doubt that Cora would have killed & in fact was already planning on killing at least one other person, when Snow made the decision to ‘go through’ with Rumple’s manipulation- I mean idea 😉
It covers all self defense & sanctioned killings- so a death took place but was unavoidable given the circumstances.Murder is perhaps the single most serious criminal offense. It covers the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought- that is they have done one or many of the following, thought the killing through or planned the killing out (premeditation), holds malice for intended victim, has a level of intent or recklessness that separates the killing from other killings & so warrants stiffer punishment, these cover the 4 types of Murder (1) intentional murder; (2) Murder resulting from the intent to do serious bodily injury; (3) Murder resulting from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; (4) murder committed by an accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.
ie.
Cora murdering Snow’s mother, she intentionally sought to kill her, out of a depraved heart & recklessness. It was she who unlawfully thought of it, planned it (premeditation) & in cold blood instigated/caused her death.I think it was during S1, i remember an interview with Genny & stated point blank in it, that Snow didn’t go for the kill in her rescue of Charming etc, as it didn’t fit the character profile. She talked to A&E about this & they agreed to have her go for the appendages/ non lethal blows & knock outs, rather than killings. I would have to go back & watch S2 to see if she actually ‘kill’s’ on the battle field, but as those events are supposed to have happened before they had Emma, the same rules should still apply.
Snow’s reaction to her causing Cora’s death (the women who Murdered her mother, murdered her childhood mother figure, had murdered her stepmothers ‘true love’, kidnapped Archie, attempted murder/heart ripping out of her own daughter & herself in FTL as well as intended harm/murder of Rumple), is because she is a good person at heart & cant come to terms with what she set in motion, while in the depths of her grief & anger, having just witnessed another loved one being murdered in front of her.
I think everyone else has moved on from what Snow did & see it as justifiable, problem is Snow doesn’t.I do have a problem with how they have Snow having a blackened heart for it- that I personally feel they have failed on & it is just a gimmick to ‘make her more interesting’ (it’s assumed we don’t find a ‘good/pure heart’ed’ character compelling enough I guess 😕 ), as by their standards pretty much every-single character in FTL (aside from the children) have blackened hearts, after all, most of them will have fought for or against, one king or queen or another 😕 🙄
I’mmmmmm baaaaaack 😉 *Waves to all my fellow CaptianSwan shippers*
Had to take another break from Once- it was getting a bit stale without Hook to liven things up lol & despite LOVING the CS ship, I do worry allot about A&E doing the whole SF/Henry’s dad thing as endgame (as already pointed out, while all indicators point to CS as a sure thing, it’s not ‘canon’ Yet 😉 )- that for me would be a deal breaker in watching the show, which has become a little to soapy for my taste of late anyway (I’d rather Emma got with a random FTL hobo/peasant than Neal as endgame- but I want it to be Hook sooo bad). I only watch for Emma & Hook…& now Charming (not keen on the whole dark Snow theme to justify Regina’s hate of Snow either, seems everyone has to be ‘tainted’ to be interesting on Once…. however that’s discussion for another thread 😉 ) But I digress….I’ve just got through reading approx 20pages of my favorite forum’s thread …… Wow- just wow, bit of a roller coaster ride that was lol 😕 😆 …. a few folks really need to go back & actually read the previous posts, then they’d have their answers, instead of pointing out things that have already been answered/explained at least half a dozen times already 🙄
LOVING the Hook & CS pics coming through, but agree there’s just a little trickle now, with a VERY long 2 week wait still to go! 🙁 I have high, high hopes for the last 4eps & have been hanging out for them since paleyfest, when we got the titles of the last 2 eps 😀
Now as for the haters (or disapprovers/ objectors) of CS, coming into a clearly tilted Shipping thread & giving your two cents why the ship sucks or can’t/shouldn’t happen, is simply put- So Not Cool, go support a ship you do like & state why this one cant happen in there, otherwise your comments are uncalled for & can almost be considered trolling.
There is a Massive difference between 1) discussing the logistics of a ship/relationship, throwing ideas around on how or why things would happen/progress or not & 2) ragging on it for even being a possibility in the 1st place- the 1st point is encouraging discussion, the 2nd is out right asking for an argument given where you are posting your opinion.
If you don’t like the idea, don’t enter a clearly labeled shipping thread in the 1st place (I wont go near SQ, ST or SF threads for instance, because I hate the idea of any of those ships & to post in them would result in me either offending, getting in a argument or ending up with trolling, none of which I find to be a morally acceptable thing to willingly partake in for my own personal gratification, so I steer clear) or word your posts differently, so you are asking a question or for clarification on opinions of a certain aspect of the ship that differs from your own- then you can partake in the discussion, rather than ostracize or start arguments with people ie. Some of the comments that have recently been posted by non-CS shippers, have been pointless, as the answers to their questions, as well as clearly laid out explanations to their statements, have already been answered & discussed at length many times over previously- they didn’t bother to go through & read the thread, just posted their negative opinions where they knew they’d get a reaction.Lastly, Oh how I’ve missed this wonderful CS thread, however & this is very very important point I need to make……… I already called dibs ……..Killian/Hook is ALL mine!!! 😉 😆
Now off to find a Hook/Killian image for my avatar.
I too agree with jollyroger on the whole planned thing…. reading this thread always has me wanting to go back & re-watch this season for the little things I missed but others picked up & looking for other little ‘tells’ 😉
I Agree with you 100% MysteryKat25! Love this version of Hook & as I’m a very compassionate person, I always want to see the bad guys redeemed rather than killed out right lol 😉
KFChimera, as I said, the stuff you have taken a disliking to in what I posted, were not blanket posts about Hook personally, they were posts directed at those who had come in here, stating he was evil & if not as bad, then worse than Rumple, Regina & Cora- simply because he injured/shot Belle/ was after Rumple (obviously character’s they love dearly, but still no excuse to use double standards imo, despite the fact I understand why they are saying what they are saying) & so couldn’t ever be with Emma etc.
I didn’t use quotes, as it came from a number of individual posts & that I think, is where your confusion is coming from over exactly what I was referring to- that point was in no way a general character statement- it was simply a direct response to the situation spoken of further back.
Most of the stuff you pointed out I agree with 🙂As I already said, I don’t think he is ‘evil’, but nor do I think he is ‘good’ either (yet), again, the same as jollyroger.
Personally I feel, as he is now, he does still need redemption for the bad choices he’s made- he shot someone & he needs to let go of the past etc- but over all it doesn’t change that I feel he has been shown as an honourable man (from what we’ve seen so far), who is making & acting on some bad choices out of grief & anger right now (kind of like Emma did/has done)- it doesn’t excuse his actions to date by any means- but in the grand scheme of things OUaT, he hasn’t been portrayed as ‘evil’ like some would have everyone believe (he may even get darker yet in his desperation, before he starts to change- we’ll just have to wait & see) 😉I almost see him as a milder version of Rumple in lots of ways personally, but at the end of the day I too find his character interesting & look forward to seeing him evolve personally & along side Emma. It’s also why I like CS in general- they actually compliment each other really well 🙂
I will just point out, that I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you have said KFChimera. In fact you seem to agree with pretty much all the CS shippers in this thread, it’s just some of the stuff is taken out of context, as it was in response to a number of statements made by non-CS fans, further back in the thread 😉 For the most part, you are thinking along the same lines as the rest of us. 🙂
@KFChimera wrote:
There is no reason to gloss over the negative aspects of Hook’s character, just to justify pairing him with Emma. If anything, it makes the story more complex and interesting.
I don’t think anyone has to be perfectly honest. It just hasn’t been discussed in full as this isn’t the Hook/Killian thread its the CS thread, so it only makes common sense that what is discussed in this particular thread, is that which pertains to them as a couple.
But I will bite & reply to your points here 😉 😆
@KFChimera wrote:
Watch Queen of Hearts. Hook kills one of Regina’s guards just to break into Belle’s cell. When Belle won’t tell him anything useful, he raises his hook as if about to kill her too, but then Regina intervenes. He then agrees to go kill Regina’s mother to help him get to Rumpel. It is easy to overlook, since to the audience Cora is “the Horror” 👿 👿 👿 👿 . ..and a guard is a nameless, minor character but it is still murder and he is willing to do it/did it.
He may try to keep the collateral damage pretty low compared to other villains, but he is still willing to hurt a lot of people to get to Rumpel. He knocks out Charming to get his hook. He threatens to “dissect” Hopper, though he doesn’t actually cut him (nor free him!). He “borrowed” Aurora’s heart to get back on Cora’s good side. Then there’s what he did to Belle.
Murder = killing unlawfully & with premeditation.
I doubt Hook had sat down & thought too much about who & what would be standing in the way of his revenge- it was more (from what we have seen & been told to date), if anyone happened to get in his way of revenge on rumple, he’d take them down.
Personally I don’t see someone as evil for knocking someone out instead of killing them- that is pretty mild/ honourable given he’s a pirate (& Charming means nothing to him), Regina, Rumple or Cora would have killed him out right- Cora didn’t have a problem with turning that guy into a fish.
Again Archie’s interrogation was mild given the evil we’ve seen the other 3 commit & as you point out nothing actually happened & why would he free him- he wants to take Rumple down for killing his love?!
He stated outright he never had any intention to harm Aurora, he simply needed to do what he did (not that that makes it the ‘right’ thing to do), to get to Hook- but he didn’t murder or kill anyone to pull it off- he could have, but he made the effort & but the thought into how NOT to.
I will discuss Belle with your Belle points other wise I’ll just end up repeating myself.
EF is not the real world, here guards have tasers not swords & they have to work with-in a law/legal system, that does not allow for the kill 1st & bury later mentality.
EF has no such laws, it is kill or be killed, esp when it comes to Rumple, Cora & Evil Queen.
If every time someone kills someone else, or defends themselves by killing someone who would otherwise kill them, was considered evil for doing so- everyone in EF is evil- its as simple as that, because all have fought their way out of battles & those battles & situations which have had casualties.@KFChimera wrote:
It is really hard to say what his intent was with Belle at the town line. Just because you know how to use a gun doesn’t mean you’re a great shot in the dark. But even assuming his intent was to rob Belle of her memories, not kill her, that’s still pretty evil. His beef is with Rumpel, not Belle. He took everything away from her of who she was. Remember when Belle’s father Mo was going to take her memories from her?(Was that foreshadowing?It happened in the Hook centered episode The Crocodile.) Belle thought the action so horrible that she tells Mo that she never wants to see him again, that she can’t forgive him for it. Belle, the character who tries to see the good in everyone, cannot forgive her own father for trying to take her memories away. So I’d say causing a total memory loss is not a “minor misdeed”.
He said outright to Rumple (or Emma- cant remember now which it was)- killing Belle was pointless to his revenge, but taking her memories, her love of Rumple, hurt Rumple more, as Belle is where he keeps his heart.
To me (until it is otherwise stated in the show), that means he wanted her to loose her memories, not kill her out right- which is cruel yes- but I cant call it evil (that I reserve for cold blooded Murder).
The same is true for what happened when he went after her in Regina’s cell- we don’t know if he would have killed her out right, we can only assume at this point- given Rumple already thought she was dead, what would be the point in him killing her for revenge- which is what makes it weird & out of character for him to simply kill her at that point (as it gains him nothing), plus Regina stepped in.
Yes he agreed to go murder a women who had murdered many people before, again that was only because Regina told him that would get him his revenge on Rumple- no one has ever stated he was a saint, he was a pirate after all & is willing to die to gain justice/ get his revenge (also he never went through with it as Cora offered him a better deal to get to Rumple).@KFChimera wrote:
There is a spectrum of evil. At one end you have Cora, for sure, but then you have characters like the Blind Witch, George/Spencer, Sydney Glass,Hook,Maleficient Jefferson, Jimminy’s parents and others I forget. I absolutely agree that Regina and Rumpel are in Cora’s leauge , but some fans view those two as having mitigating circumstances (Rumpel’s curse, and the manipulation of Regina by her mother and Rumpel). The point is though, you can’t judge Hook only against the worst villains in the show, then say well he’s not evil because he’s not THAT evil! Compare him to the others I mentioned, and, while I’m not sure where I’d rank him, I’d put him on the list.
I agree & disagree with you here- there is EVIL & there is BAD… Cora -to me- Is actually Evil (she’s prone to darkness by nature imo), despite her reasons for doing what she did, she has systemically MURDERED (sat down & planned out each & every death in detail) many, for slights committed against her or to get what she wants (all we know of at this stage at least anyway), those acts are evil in themselves, but the fact she actually PLANNED them is what makes her evil.
Regina is twisted, H&K have explained she only blames Snow because she cant blame her mother for Daniel’s murder, despite her mother committing it in front of her. Regina has committed acts of serious Evil & yes was indeed Evil herself for sometime as well, but she hasn’t quite reached the same level of planning murder like Cora has (she is more prone to reactive killings, than detailed planning), as it’s not in her nature to do so imo (the curse didn’t actually kill anyone, but the intention was to harm, which I can almost consider to be a cruel rather than evil act- mild distinction, I know, but there is a difference).
Rumple is bad/ darkone is Evil, but again Rumple isn’t evil not by nature, he is weak/cowardly, his evil acts come directly from fear & then later planning, when the curse took hold, consuming him & he chooses to hold on to that evil power, over the love & well being of his child which is bad, not evil.
Hook isn’t Evil (from what we have seen to date),by nature. He has committed acts of cruelty & violence/killed in the heat of his revenge BUT again this has all been AFTER Rumple murdered his love in front of him- NOT BEFORE. His one act of Evil will be his planning to kill Rumple- but he didn’t follow through on that when he saw Rumples reaction to Belle on the boat, he changed tact & decided to take Rumple’s LOVE away from him- so he could feel/suffer like Hook had, cruel yes- evil no (evil would have been to murder her).
All we know of before is he was a pirate, so a bit of a bully, but who had honour & a code of ethics almost boarding on chivalry (from a pirates point of view anyway)- which makes him a good, bad guy.
He told Emma (I think it was), that wasn’t interested in hurting anyone, but if anyone chose to stand between him & his vengeance on Rumple, he would take them down- again this indicates he doesn’t outright kill for the sake of killing or plan on murder like the above 3 have shown to do.
So yes, I agree that while he isn’t a ‘good guy’ (& remember Charming has killed, Red has killed & I’m sure many if not all the others – aside from Snow at this point have also killed protecting their way of life or rights in EF), he isn’t exactly a bad guy (yet) either- he’s only out for the one person, for a good reason (not that I agree with whole eye for an eye thing) & has no intention of harming anyone who doesn’t put themselves in his path.I personally don’t see him in the same league as the George/Spencer, Sydney Glass or Maleficient- all those choose to commit murder/kill for their own satisfaction, nothing more (although Maleficient may be excused from this- we don’t know enough about her OUaT character to be certain she/was is actually evil or more bad/cruel).
No one has ever said “he’s a good guy”, but by the same token he isn’t close to as as evil as some are saying he is (esp given those same people make excuses for Rumple, Regina & Cora being & doing what they had done) & that is what that comment is referencing- Nothing else. Your point there is only agreeing with what CS shippers have all said about Hook since page one.@KFChimera wrote:
And maybe in this show we should not talk of evil, but of whether someone is capable of redemption or not. Hook having a romantic story arc and redemption could be exactly the direction the writers have in mind, because they do give hints that he is more than a one note vengeance machine. Not that I find a character bent on revenge to be unappealing or distasteful–Inigyo in the Princess Bride was always a favorite of mine. 😉
Yes I agree with you there & yes they have said from before S2 started, that their Hook was going to be a very complex guy & not your typical Hook ‘villain’- I almost see him as almost a kind of anti-hero (until he does something cruel & doesn’t put it right). I can understand why he does what he does & he rarely goes OTT with it, so for me he is more relatable. At the end of the day if Rumple hadn’t killed his wife, Hook would never have been ‘born’ & Killian’s capacity for going as dark as his nature will allow may never have been awakened.
I’ll be honest when I say this- I NEVER, EVER liked Hook per-say as a character, growing up- he was just a bad guy out to get Peter pan (who I was never in love with either lol), It is THIS version of Hook & Killian, that I Really like, because he is relatable- they’ve done a very good job with this character imo 😉
WOW! Sorry this is so long!!!! 😳
@Sarah_TN wrote:
I thought I was going to take a break…..
Confession time……….
I can’t stay away……….
Captain Swan is what I’m really hoping for. Thank goodness for fanfiction because without Hook these next few weeks, I think I’d be breaking out in hives. I’ve got withdrawal! 😀
Hehe, I took a break as I’m so over all the swanfire & Neal stuff ….. That whole thing just makes me soooooo angry. The way he treated her, his poor reasons for it, how he reacted to her when she found him, how he reacted to Henry & his response to Henry’s anger at his mother GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 👿
I just had to have time out from even the possibility that H&K would even consider something so shallow & counter-character, as pair Neal & Emma back up- I really don’t know if I could still watch the show if they go there seriously, given it goes against who they have shown these characters to be + I’m finding the show a little flat of late & Hook/Killian + CS is the only thing really spicing it up & keeping me watching atm 😉
I think Regina should have a blood claim to Henry as well as legal claim- that can only happen if she falls for Bae, it’d make her comfortable that no matter what happens, she will always be in Henry’s life- despite Emma & likewise Bae in Henry’s life as well. That cant be possible any other way than for Regina & Bae to be together (unless Cora & Rumple had Regina, then she becomes his Aunt I suppose, but that makes it a very messy fix).
I’d just hate for them to go down the road of someone causing another they are meant to love, so much pain, injustice & trauma, yet the person simply takes them back because they are the father of her son & her 1st love- it’s just such a shallow & demeaning thing for a women in 2000 to do & that is NOT a good message to send to kids either.
Better she moves on to someone (*cough-Hook-cough*) who fills/answers her needs & see’s her as a partner/ equal, instead of someone who’s unable & needing protection. Emma can look after herself at the end of the day, she is strong & independent, so needs someone who will stand WITH her, supporting her in her actions, instead of someone who wants to rush in & take over from her.@MysteryKat25 wrote:
looking forward to watching Emma find a way to get through to Hook (let’s face it…who else could??)
Yes, I agree 100% 😀
Another thing I think, is when Emma learns the whole story of Hook, Killian’s loyalty & devotion will only endear him more to her- The fact he hasn’t given up on Milah, even after her death, will appeal to Emma on every level, as it is her deepest, most heart felt need (& the one thing she needs most to truly heal & love deeply enough to truly open up again), that Hook has, has demonstrated & proven he has in the highest amounts of any character on the show save Charming himself!
In fact, if daughter’s are suppose to marry those most like their fathers, then Hook is perfect- he is both sides of both the Charming’s- James & David (one charming, shallow & entitled, the other- charming, noble & honourable)- Hook is both 😆 😉
Right, now that I’ve finished with making those 2 points, back to why CS is best 😉
Killian as others have pointed out, is the kind of person who will stand by those he care’s for no matter what (even in death)- look at what he is doing for Milah; He is willing to die to avenge/ get justice for her (Rumple killed her for leaving him, so Hook wants to kill Rumple for murdering her- it’s not like he’s going after Rumple for giggles, he has a legitimate reason), so even in death, he is standing up for her & that is EXACTLY what Emma needs (minus his hell bent revenge bit- but he can give that up…. if he finds a reason to forgive, through loving again).
As for his OTT flirtations, I put those down to his version of Emma’s walls- he uses them to keep females at arms length & help prevent himself from falling in true love.
He could also be feeling responsible for Milah’s death, like he didn’t do enough to protect her etc & so wont allow himself to love again, for fear of the same thing happening again.
