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And for the record, I think you are right, it would have been way better with Neal, despite the issues some of us have with Emma taking a backseat.
And with Hook, I get it, you believe he was the agent. I just didn’t see it that way. I saw it as him helping her. And if him helping her was the biggest reason she pulled away from the darkness, then I’m not sure why that’s so bad. Why is it bad to take control and be the “agent.” Maybe he thought she wouldn’t be able to direct her own story and still not succumb to the darkness. She still had to get on the horse. He’s not forcing her to do anything. I really just didn’t see it as him being an agent.
[adrotate group="5"]Well thanks for putting words in my mouth instead of asking me. Really, that’s the best way to go. Because I really love when people speak for me.
Not trying to put words in your mouth. I said I couldn’t help but feel you would think it differently. I’m not saying you do feel that way.
No one is denying that anyone would want to save someone they love–well, except when it came to Neal (an actual hero who never tried to send a few dozen people to hell only to have a slight modification in conscious) whom Emma insists we have to let stay dead because he died a hero and we can’t take that away from him, never mind that Neal’s existence was important to more than just Emma, say like to her son and maybe to Neal’s father and father’s wife…
You are definitely right here. Why she is so intent on saving Hook, but was willing to let Neal die makes no sense. And the only thing I can think of is the fact that maybe Emma assumed it wasn’t possible back then when Neal died. Did she know about Snow splitting her heart then? I don’t beleive so. Did she know about the UW and that they could easily access it through Rumple? I’d like to think that is he had all the information she has now back then, she would have tried to save Neal too. But alas, I’m speculating.
The whole sacrifice thing….yes, they are different. One person caused the problem. But again, if you look at it like it is Emma’s fault and that none of this would have happened if she just did the “heroic” thing and let Hook die, then you could see Hook’s actions as not entirely his fault. And if you do that, then the scene where he lets Emma kill him to negate everything he did, looks more like a sacrifice. You could maybe look at it as if he’s rising above the addiction, finally able to fend off the darkness that Emma forced into him. And lets Emma kill himself to save everyone. I’m just saying the whole last two episodes are so messy and really can be interpreted in a few different ways.
Heck no! If someone tried to murder my child and family, I would not be trying to resurrect him, no matter how guilty I felt. Admittedly, Hook did the right thing the end, but merely put out a fire he himself started. If Emma is responsible for her actions as the dark one than so is Hook. I get that Emma feels guilty about what she did, but that doesn’t excuse Hook for what he said and did to Emma and her family.Even though he then died in an eleventh-hour turn-about, he still was guilty of doing horrible things.
But none of that would have happened if Emma hadn’t done what she did. It was her actions that started it all. If she lets him die, Hook doesn’t get controlled by the darkness. So I think they aren’t so different as you say they are. If you blame Emma for tethering Hook, then I don’t think you can blame Hook. He warned her. He said he would be terrible. And she didn’t listen. I guess it’s hard for me to blame Hook, if Emma is the reason Hook was in that predicament in the first place. They both did very unheroic things, but Hook doesn’t do those things if Emma doesn’t do her thing first.
And I’m not patronizing you. When I say things like, “I feel like you can’t feel like Hook was responsible for his actions, but then say it’s Emma’s fault,” I don’t mean you personally. I’m just saying in general I don’t understand that line of thinking. You are certainly entitled to have your own opinions. I’m not dictating anything at all. I was debating your reasoning because I didn’t quite agree with it. Just as you are entitled to having your opinion, I am entitled to disagree without without someone saying I’m the thought police. RG and I go back and forth saying the word “you” all the time and I certainly don’t take it be offensive at all. We just disagree about literally everything haha. But I’m sorry I made you feel that way. It was certainly not my intention.
So while her moment with Nimue is a powerful one, it matters very little in the end because her entire story and arc once again is reduced to Hook.
I think it clearly matters a lot. As a result of her actions, yes Hook became a DO. But I really do not blame her for thinking she will find a way to rid the darkness at a later point. In that moment, she was losing the person she claimed to love, and all she wanted to do was save him. Some look at that as selfish, but I do not. I can understand why she did what she did. Once again, if saving someone’s life is giving into the darkness, then idk anymore.
But yes, her arc was reduced to Hook. But really, I think the writers went that route simply because Emma was too strong to give in to be a horrible person. Ok, yes, she “gave in” when she turned Hook, but she also saved his life. It’s unfortunate bc a really dark swan would have made more a nice segway into the back half. But clearly the writers felt it was more realistic for Hook to receive the darkness and turn into this horrible person than it would be for Emma to do it. But at the end of the day, a bf helping her gf go though what is arguably her biggest struggle of her life seems completely reasonable, and the only thing I’ll agree with you on, is Hook stealing her arc in the last two episodes. Like Emma needed help. Why is it so bad that Hook was helping her? I get others should have helped more, but that’s more of a knock on their behaviors than Emma’s. Just because Hook was there to try and help her doesn’t mean she isn’t heroic and doesn’t mean Hook was the main focus. At least when I watched it, I didn’t see it that way. However the vendettas on here against Hook could affect how people perceive certain actions and phrases.
But it’s not him helping her. He isn’t there as an emotional support system while Emma fights herself. It’s Hook literally being the cure. Hook becomes the actor in her life. He has to take her and tell her to get on the horse. He has to get her out of the castle. He has to help her limp out, mute, from a room. He isn’t just there while Emma’s internal struggle plays out on screen, which would be understandable and more acceptable. He’s literally being the agent in the story.
Why is it so bad that Hook is her cure? Love is supposed to be strength right? If he’s there as an emotional support system then ok fine. But I think it says something more that Hook took a more involved role with helping her. And it worked. I can’t help but think that if Neal was doing this instead of Hook, you wouldn’t think this way. The writers are trying to tell us that Hook is important for Emma. Whether you buy that or not, that is what they are saying. Hook was able to help her when she needed it. It doesn’t make her weak. It shows that apparently, her love for Hook is important and that he is not useless. IT shows that you truly does care for him, bc he was able to pull her out of the darkness. Sure, Emma fought it herself in Nimue, but you are right, Hook helped a lot. But I just don’t automatically associate that with weakness.
That quote is the type of things, and i would not want use ships terms, so i will put it, this way, people that are no fans of SF, bc people take the line in the episode totally wrong, Emma doesnt say she no longer wants to love Neal, is very much the opposite, she says that she loves him and always will, but she is afraid of losing him again, and she doesnt want to deal with that pain again, of losing him, bc was to dificult the 1st time, and then when she thought he was dead, she not once said she didnt want to love him again, especially bc u cant choose who u love. Also Emma never saved Neal, at least not on the show, she did save him in fan fiction written by fans, she she svaed in on the show, i mean, if the writers wanted her to save him, he would be alive now, and she had mnay chances of doing so.
So two things. I think the scene with Emma and Neal in the cave is so heart-wrenching. Well done by Jennifer Morrison. And I think it can be interpreted in many different ways. Perhaps I worded it wrong. You’re right, she does say,”I know I’d never stop loving you. I love you. I probably always will love you.” No doubt she feels like she will always love him. And if that was the end of the conversation, I would side with you on this. But it’s not. She then says, “I was hoping you were dead. Because it would be easy to put you behind me, then to face all the pain we went through all over again.”
I find this to be very realistic. You break up with someone, and sometimes you will always have a place in your heart for them. But I think she makes it pretty clear that although she still loves him, she needs to move on and does not want to be with him.
And as far as Emma saving Neal, I simply meant when Tamara was about to shoot him, and Emma intervenes and kicks her butt. That’s saving someone.
But Emma did fully let the darkness consume her the moment she tethered Hook to Excalibur. For most S5a, Emma was struggling to keep the darkness at bay with the help of her family and friends. However, Emma choosing to tether Hook to Excalibur is what made her fully embrace the darkness and turned her from the semi-dark one into the full Dark Swan. Real love honors the beloved; it doesn’t betray him. What she did to Hook was incredibly selfish and ignoble; Emma betrayed Hook in the worst possible way because of her fear. She was afraid of being left alone again. That fateful and selfish decision to tether him against his wishes is why she visibly went from wearing white to wearing all black.
So then shouldn’t she feel responsible for what Hook did as a result of making him become the DO? Shouldn’t she want to go save him? I feel like you can’t feel like Hook was responsible for his actions, but then say it’s Emma’s fault. You either think that Emma, who has been afraid to love because she always loses the ones closest to her, did not want to lose someone she cares about and felt she could get the darkness out of him and figure it out. She chose to keep him alive, selfish reasons or not. If you think you love somebody, I imagine it’s pretty hard to just let them go. I understand her wanting to save him, and although the show says that was her giving into the darkness, it just didn’t feel that way. If saving someone from death is darkness, then idk anymore. So she saved him, but then Hook, very much in control of his actions, was horrible. So you either think that, or you think Emma was selfish and it’s her fault Hook did what he did. And if that’s the case, and you are thinking about it in Emma’s eyes, wouldn’t you want to save the guy you think you love who just sacrificed himself after a darkness battle he only had to endure because you made him this way?
There are plenty of valid points on here, and a ton of material to read (lots of passionate fans here with strong opinions). So without going through and quoting a bunch of stuff everyone has written, I’ll just summarize a couple things.
– Emma’s actions in Nimue were extremely heroic and she did it by herself. Hook was nowhere to be found. So although much of the arc was her boyfriend trying to calm her down, not listen to Rumple in her head etc. etc., the most challenging test for Emma as a hero came when Hook was not around. She fought it herself.
“I am not nothing. I was never nothing. The power you have, I don’t need.”
If you can watch that and tell me that isn’t her showing how powerful and heroic she is, then we will never find a common ground. For me, it was at that point in season 5a that the writers realized Emma was too strong of a character to just let the darkness take over. So they wrote Hook into it. And as far as Hook being responsible for his actions, absolutely. The fact that Hook seems like he may get a pass here and Rumple hasn’t for what he did, is not fair. However, I will say, I think Rumple was treated much better after he sacrificed himself in season 3a. It wasn’t until he started doing bad things again that people starting hating him again. Right now, although Hook caused the damage, he did sacrifice himself as Rumple did before. Yes, the sacrifices were very different, but just at face value here, it was a sacrifice so the resulting behavior toward Hook will likely be that of understanding. Now if Hook starts being a bad person again, characters should turn on him as they did with Rumple when he started going after the hat. And if that doesn’t happen, it’s not fair.
And I will say this again…..why is it so bad that Hook’s deep villainy issues are way more intense than Emma or Rumple’s? You are right, Rumple never said those things to Belle. But I think that simply emphasizes that Hook was a worse person than Rumple. So when he became the DO, his inner demons were more intense, and more easily manipulated by the darkness. It doesn’t give him a free pass for what he did. I think it highlights that he still may a total jerk. But to me, if he’s a bad person still deep down inside, it makes sense that he would be the worst DO.
And since we know that Emma has the same chance of being evil as being good according to season 4, the struggle she was going through, especially in The Dark Swan really rang true for me. She almost gave in many times, but really never did anything that bad. That shows her power and heroism. Everyone else who were DO’s didn’t have the same potential for darkness that Emma had. Her struggle felt very real, and she needed some help. I had no problem that Hook, Merlin, Henry a little but not much, Snowing a little but not much, and occasionally Regina, had to help her along the way. Henry, Snowing, and Regina should have been a bigger player though I agree. The writers clearly wanted to progress the CS relationship here so Hook got more screen time helping her.
As far as plot goes, what I meant was that when you said things like she didn’t spend like any time with her parents, or Henry….plot points that to me doesn’t really directly affect how “strong” of a character she is, it’s not fair to say she isn’t as strong because they are writing Snowing and Henry like out of the show. When she needed to be strong, and the writing gave her the chance, she has mostly been strong. There have certainly been slip ups, but not enough for me to all of a sudden declare The Savior as a weak character.
And your second question, as far as whether she has progressed, I believe she has. In season 1, she learned to love the son she never knew, and she finally believed in fairy tales and her son. In season 2, she began to understand the power love truly has resulting in her direct power through Snowing’s true love (thinking queen of hearts here), she learned to forgive (I’m thinking Neal here), and then fought for him when she absolutely knew Tamara was bad news, even when everyone else thought she was crazy. She saved Neal (and then lost him), she saved Regina from Greg’s torture chamber, and she started believing that she can be “The Savior.” In season 3, she led the whole group in Neverland, and although Regina was the one to get pan in the end before they went back to Storybrooke, and even though it was Rumple who ultimately killed him and himself for everyone, Emma progressed with coming to terms with being an orphan, and she also came to terms with no longer wanting to love Neal anymore (I’m thinking in the cave when they all reveal their “secrets.”). And in the back half, although it was Regina’s arc to shine, the finale was important for Emma, to understand and to actually see how everything started with her parents, and then ultimately saving them. Season 4 also had it’s Emma Swan moments for me. The frozen arc especially. Her parallel to Elsa I thought was actually well done, and their eventual bonding and understanding of each other being misunderstood, I thought worked well. And Emma also gets some more information about one of her foster mothers and her life (Ingrid) in that particular foster home with Lily, her best friend. This season she also moved along in her relationship with Hook. Whether you like it or not, the relationship progressed to something bigger than what it was. And then now with season 5a, I’ve already explained why I feel she has shown tremendous strength, through her own mental and physical challenges, but also letting another man into her life after seeing yet another boyfriend of hers, die in front of her.
Well, that was longer than I thought. But again, sure the character has had it’s ups and downs, mainly due to inconsistent writing, but she always usually has a few scenes throughout each season to assure us she is still the hero of this story and still is quite the force to be reckoned with.
Season 1….ahhh a lovely place in my heart
Favorite episode: I truly cannot pick 1. It is a tie with a few. Pilot, Skin Deep, Hat Trick, A Land Without Magic.
Favorite character introduced: Rumple, Jefferson
Favorite moment: When Emma remembers and goes after Regina in the finale, When Emma wakes Henry up with true love’s kiss in the finale, Charming fighting Regina’s henchman while holding baby Emma in the pilot, Graham getting his heart crushed in the heart is a lonely hunter.
This is not what happened. Not even close. Instead it became all about a boy. Emma’s entire plan and journey in S5A was about Hook. It was about Hook’s pain, Hook’s anger, and Hook’s bloodlust. When the veil is finally lifted and see the whole story of the season, we realize it was never about Emma: it was about Hook. This is a problem because of how the story was framed by the writers…Emma’s journey into the darkness (something all heroes must do) and how she deals with it. But she doesn’t deal with it; she doesn’t even break her the darkness’s hold on her, Hook does with his sacrifice. Along with this, Emma was given almost no screentime with other characters that were part of her strong woman make up. Henry appears only when the plot needs him to be there–and the one episode (505) that focused on Emma and Henry (and Regain) felt like the most organic of the show in a long time because it removed Emma’s love interest for a significant amount of time and focused on Emma as Savior (the return of Operation Cobra with the horse), a friend (encouraging and being encouraged by Regina), and mother (her adventure with Henry both in Camelot and SB). Along with disconnecting Emma from her son, the show never let her talk with her parents until the very end. They were snubbed, forced to stand on the sidelines and just be sad people without doing anything to try and reach their daughter. This felt like a lie especially after the SDCC promo was Snow’s voice over trying to explain how she would not let the Darkness take her daughter.
Let’s not confuse horrible writing and plot with Emma as to whether she is a strong character anymore. That’s all I’ll say on the above quote I picked out.
This brings us to the end of the arc in which Emma can’t see beyond losing her boyfriend. She’s not even able to think complexly about the fact that while Hook died in an effort to rid the world (and her) of darkness (something Emma calls heroic), he did it by trying to send her entire family, including her son, to Hell. He also killed Merlin and enacted the Dark Curse. Emma doesn’t even bother to ruminate on any this; it’s simply that she cannot live without her boyfriend. In other words, Hook’s life has more value to her than any sense of justice.
I would also say here, that her love is clouding her judgement. Or it was rushed. They just needed to get them to the UW. I mean they didn’t even show us Emma really asking them to join her. And they didn’t show the Camelot characters. It was all rushed. We may see some of this reflection from Emma in the mid season premiere.
Along with this is the declawing of Emma. There is really one instance I am going to talk about. In 5×10, DO Hook really lays into Emma with a lot of nasty things. The nastiest being that Emma will always be an orphan. What bothers me most about this is that Emma just stands there and lets herself be an emotional punching bag. She doesn’t retaliate with the knowledge that her family loves her–so much that they are trying to save her, even in the present day, and that they crossed realms for her. Not only her family, but the entire town that adopted Emma as not only the Savior but also a friend and part of their wonky, weird family. She’s not an Orphan. Snow told her so back in NVL. While what Hook said really drove home the fact that he, as the DO, is really horrible, it totally robbed Emma of her character. Emma who said in S1 that everyone tries to tell you who you are, but you have to fight back and say “no this is who I am!”
This was a stab at Emma Swan for sure, and her character suffered for it. Not going to argue with that. If anything, this highlights Cora’s belief that love is weakness, because if anybody else had said that to her, she would have fought back. But honestly, I would make the argument that just because she is showing restraint with Hook, doesn’t mean she is not strong. I think she knew that the man telling her those things was not the same person, and that in some degree, it was the darkness talking. Obviously he needs to be held accountable for his actions, but the darkness obviously had an effect on him, and for me, it wasn’t Emma showing weakness, it was showing understanding and restraint knowing that Hook was being somewhat controlled by darkness. I think if that was just regular Hook, I would guarantee she would fight back. But that was just how I saw the scene. A lot of Hook haters out there see Hook being very much in control of himself as the DO, and I definitely get how you could see it that way. Rumple was never this ruthless. But as I’ve said before, the darkness brings out the worst in people. Emma was not that bad so she didn’t do anything that bad as the DO. Rumple was bad, but mainly manipulative. So although he was a bad man, he wasn’t as ruthless. He was in the middle between these two. And Hook was the worst. The worst part of Hook, is clearly the worst of the three because he was the worst DO. And because I see it as the darkness latching on to Hook’s worst characteristics and exploiting them on a massive scale, I certainly don’t blame Hook entirely for what transpired. And I don’t think Emma does either. And that’s why I think she shows restraint with him, especially because she feels responsible for not letting him die like he asked her. He did warn her how he would be….If anything, I think you could argue that you can show strength in a variety of ways, including knowing when to pick your battles and when to show restraint. I’m sure it took a lot for her not to react to the hurtful things he said.
And I’ll quickly point out that Emma had a “this is who I am” moment in “Nimue” when she refused to let Nimue control her and persuade her. That was an extremely powerful moment, and it was in that scene that Nimue and the rest of the DO’s knew they could not go through Emma to get what they wanted. And then Hook got nicked by Excalibur and they saw their pawn…….
Feel free to disagree….even I can see that Emma’s character is up for debate, especially after this last half season where it should have been all about her and ended up ending with Hook. But Emma showed a lot of strength throughout the half season by simply not giving in to the darkness. Let’s not only reflect on the final two atrocious episodes, but try to remember how Emma acted throughout the half season, and her struggle right from the premiere. The darkness was able to take control of Rumple and Hook. Emma fought it. THAT is strength.
