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You kind of are defending his comment because you are making an excuse for him. “he was being portrayed as a villain” is an excuse. That’s like saying Rumple was well within his rights to rip out Milah’s heart and crush it because “he was being portrayed as a villain”. It was okay for Arthur to control Gwen, making her believe she loved him with magic dust because “he was being portrayed as a villain”, it was okay for Pan to emotionally manipulate Henry because “he was being portrayed as a villain” etc etc. If you start excusing one characters actions because of reasons then you have to apply the same logic across the board.
Well yes. Should we just have all characters be nice and perfect. You need bad people to tell a story. These people are bad people. Arthur was a bad person. Pan was a bad person. So their actions make sense to me. It would make less sense if they did something good. I’m not going to get offended by something a “bad” character does.
I’m not defending the comment per say, I’m just defending the writers using it for a bad person. It’s not a good thing to say. That is why Charming didn’t say it. A bad person said it. Like come on guys, Arthur controlling Gwen was terrible. But based on his goals and what he wanted to accomplish, I understood why he did it. Not condoning it, but he was a bad guy. Was not surprised he did that. Rumple was a bad man. And Milah left him. It makes sense that he killed her and ripped her heart out. How are you supposed to write villainous characters if they don’t do villainous things? Am I missing something here? We are supposed to go wow what a jerk, I hate him, not wow I am totally personally offended by this fictional villain’s actions. I must be really missing something here.
[adrotate group="5"]All fair points. He obviously does things that are not great. And although I think you are quick to jump to things like emotional manipulation when Hook says things like he’s afraid he’ll revert back to his old self if it wasn’t for her (because I don’t see that as emotional manipulation if he truly is afraid that’s what will happen and if Emma truly has that kind of affect on him), he certainly cannot be defended all the time and I’m not going to try now.
Of course they do. But you can find stuff villains do offensive. I’m offended when people murder, rape, maim, or otherwise injure another person. The fact that “horrible people do horrible” things isn’t justification. They don’t get a pass because “oh, villains.” Especially when it doesn’t get treated as a horrible thing by the writers…it gets treated as romantic.
However this I just don’t understand. If the bad guy is supposed to do bad things, how can you find that offensive. It is logic. They don’t get a pass. We are supposed to hate them, not get offended. Being offended to me, sounds like you are taking it personal. But I don’t get what kind of behavior you are expecting from a villain.
No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.
Well hasn’t he apologized for his past actions and said he isn’t that man anymore? I looped everything he did back then under that category. They can’t apologize for every line. I just felt like Hook had to convince her that he was turning over a new leaf and not just trying to get with her. And I thought he had done that. Whether it was believable or not is certainly up for debate. And even so, we can disagree on Hook’s redemption arc or what have you. I don’t think they’ve done the best job myself. But at the time, when he said it, and he was a clear villain, I don’t understand how that can be offensive. That would be like being offended that Cruella manipulated dogs to eat her mother or whatever. Animal cruelty! But she was a horrible person. They do or say horrible things.
And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”
Of course that’s awful. But he was an awful person. I’m not defending his comment. Let me be clear. But he was being portrayed as a villain. So why should I have an issue with that line if we as viewers are supposed to view him as a bad guy. Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc. But at the time, a line like that was from a villain who was trying to get in her pants with rude pirate talk, which is why I didn’t have an issue with it.
Regina is never brought to bear for her crimes against Graham.
And I’ll just leave it at this, although Regina never received punishment or had to fully admit that what she did to Graham was awful, I think as fans we understood what she was doing was wrong. I don’t think they condoned it in any way.
But yeah, I think we will not agree on these issues. Which is fine haha.
My own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me.
Yeah if that offends you, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this topic. That was his character. There are people like that. Not everyone is sunshine and rainbows. He was a villain then. And at that point, he never tried to force himself on her. They were fighting and he said a stupid line. I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing. It didn’t feel like it was, I’m going to force myself upon you, take your clothes off, and you will feel it and like it. Honestly if you were jumping to that way back then, it’s no wonder you don’t care for this character.
Yeah, I suppose I don’t analyze quite like some of you do. I’m more along the lines of “going along for the ride” type person. I can certainly point out its flaws in canon and within the show itself, but I try not to compare it to the real world because most of the time, it’s so dramatized that I can’t fairly compare it. Obviously there are things you can point out that characters say and do, but I try to separate myself from real life and just view it as something that is entertaining me on the television screen.
But yes you are right. The Zelena and Robin example is of course valid. Regina and Graham also valid. At least with these women, they knowingly and in total control, in a sense, raped these men. I just feel like the Hook situation is a little different.
However I will say, and this is kind of a different topic here, I do not have any problem with television shows depicting these types of scenes if it is essential or important to the story. Unfortunately, rape happens in our culture. It is a horrible horrible thing. In the case with Regina, we were supposed to hate her. So her treatment and manipulation of Graham made us despise her. It served a purpose. Whereas you could argue in Game of Thrones, the Sansa scene seemed unnecessary. As long as the show isn’t condoning this awful behavior, I’m not offended by it. I don’t believe they condoned Regina or Zelena’s behavior. Now if you want to say they are condoning Hook’s alleged bad abusive behavior, then fair enough. I would argue against the abusiveness, but there is no doubt the showing is at some level saying his behavior is ok, and I never felt they did that with Regina or Zelena.
What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship.
Yes, but in real life, people aren’t literally being controlled by a “dark force” that was transferred into their body through a magical sword from Camelot. To compare it to real life abusive relationships doesn’t really seem fair. The writers are trying to make us believe that he literally had no control over what he was doing. If he literally can’t control it, it’s not fair to loop him into the category of “abusive boyfriends.” If he was always abusive, but just controlled it better when he wasn’t the DO, then ok. But he was not like that with Emma pre DO. This felt like it came out of nowhere. They want us to believe this darkness forced him to do these things. I think there is a difference. Not downplaying abusive relationships here, and I do see the parallel you are trying to make, it’s just this show is way too cray cray for me to think logically about it and attempt to compare it to actual real life relationships.
It’s bad writing, as you say later, but it’s not just that. It’s being totally disconnected from any sense of feminism, morality, or understanding of current discourse in our society viz a viz the intersection of media and society.
Maybe, I just think that’s a little harsh. I think the writers just screwed this up. They wanted us to really believe that Hook had no control over what he was doing. And that we are just supposed to forget what he said and did as the DO, so now that he isn’t the dark one, we should want to save him. This did not land. And to me, that’s bad writing. As far as the disconnection with feminism, morality, etc., I just don’t know. Like, Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness. We are not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive if he couldn’t control what he was saying/doing. Which is why for me, I’m not like offended by it or anything. It was just poor execution and writing because we all clearly do feel like it is abusive because we don’t feel like the darkness would just make someone say/do horrible things like that because it wasn’t this dark with Rumple.
It’s important to remember what the writers are trying to make us feel and what they actually are making us feeling. The relationship is not SUPPOSED to be abusive. We are SUPPOSED to feel bad for Hook because he really wouldn’t want to say/do these things. So when Emma finally “kills” him, and relieves him of his struggle (after seemingly overcoming it and saving everyone), we are SUPPOSED to want Emma to save him, not think why she is going after someone who abuses her. But because of bad writing, it doesn’t stick. But as a fan, I’m trying to look at it the way the writers want us to look at it, otherwise the show won’t make sense. So if they want to tell me that the darkness really did make Hook say/do those things, and that he truly does care for her, I have to go along with it otherwise saving him and the back half of this season will make zero sense.
The fact that he was the dark one only when he was told and there is no indication for it bothers me because it is just a cheap shock value twist, it is obvious that it wasn’t planned to be that way
No doubt man. Honestly that was the biggest problem I had. How on Earth does he not remember being the dark one? I get that his memories were wiped, but since when do dreamcatchers have the ability to makes dark ones forget they are dark ones? That was the biggest issue I had.
Rumple did not murder anyone to our knowledge (you can speculate but canonically within the story, he did not).
Didn’t he like kill some people in the woods in an episode where Bae realized that kids wouldn’t hang out with him because they feared his father so much? Maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure he killed people. And I’m not gonna argue that what Hook did as the DO in like a day wasn’t way worse than what Rumple had ever done. Because it was. But I think that shows the kind of person they both were before being the DO. Rumple was not a bad man. Hook was, and he has had to try and become good again (not gonna argue whether the writers have sold us on this plot point of Hook redemption or not because obviously there are some flaws). But it would make sense to me, I think, for Hook to be worse, not necessarily because he is still a bad man, but because he once was, and the DO brings out the worst in you, and Hook was always way worse than Rumple pre DO.
I can never forgive Hook telling Emma that she’ll always be an orphan and Emma just standing there taking it, being his emotional punching bag. Rumple could be cold or manipulative but you never saw him talk to Belle that way when he was the DO, either in the EF or in SB.
This, I felt, the writers went too far. Like even if the darkness was stronger in Hook because Hook used to be a terrible person, this was just too far. I agree. Like how can the writers have us believe that this love with Emma is true if he’s going to say things like that. That’s deep rooted stuff that clearly he still harbors. Once they had Hook get that personal, they should have killed him off. Why do we want to save him now? As you said, Rumple never would say that to Belle when he was the DO. I think the writers wanted us to believe what I said above, that because he was a bad man before, it was easy for the darkness to manipulate that, but you can’t just have Hook say something like that, with no fight in him at all, and then have us feel like we should save him. Honestly, it’s more bad writing than anything else.
