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With Snow sleeping, it allows David to pursue the death of his father. That is why they are doing this. He wouldn’t do it after he told her he wouldn’t if she was awake.
[adrotate group="5"]I agree that realism is a problem but I think the biggest is lack of coherent world building. Nothing plot wise nor character wise matters because the writers can change on a dime whenever they see fit, either for a better idea or because they simply don’t care to keep things consistent. This fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants world building doesn’t work because not only does magic not make sense (or just any random plot device) but it also means big concepts like what good or evil actually *is* are so ill defined that it’s hard (if not impossible) to tell a story.
Very much agree with this and I would also say that bc everything in the past that is important has already basically been told, the flashbacks (which used to be a big strength of this show) are now often times lackluster. World building timeline issues and forced lackluster flashbacks have brought the show down, for me at least.
i kind of disagree that him being polarizing makes him popular. It makes it hard to have a discussion about hook that isnt singing his praises because no one wants to hear negative things about him. We can do that about other villains including Regina but when it comes to Hook things become difficult and i will repeat i think its just because a lot of the hook are primarily CS fans and are just content with the ship and cant see it from the perspective of those who liked hook but dont care for the ship.
And while I am no CS fan, I do think the ship is being written better than you do. But if you say that CS fans can’t hear anything negative about Hook, I think you could say the same for SF fans who are quick to find things wrong with Hook and dwell on them. It works both ways. You can’t say there is bias on one side and not on the other. My whole point was that other characters on this show get more passes, or at least their actions don’t get dwelled on as much as Hook’s, it seems. One example was when Hook took the book out this season and reminded Emma of who she was and that she can do anything she puts her mind to. Many fans were annoyed bc they felt it was just Hook being Emma’s lapdog again and only serving to act as her supportive boyfriend, when in fact, the scene was actually really sweet and continued to put Hook in a great light this year. But let’s say it was Robin telling that to Regina (like he did all the time and literally only served as her lapdog for years), many fans would have loved it. Robin was just as boring as Hook but people on this thread loved Robin and hate Hook. I had people tell me they shouldn’t have killed off Robin just bc he was poorly written and was boring. I was told that just because the writers didn’t flesh out his story and only used him as a support shoulder for Regina, that it didn’t mean he needed to die becasue it sends a bad message to families watching the show. Ok, well Hook is basically serving the same role here with Emma. Never once were people this annoyed over Robin’s role until AFTER he died. But with Hook, it’s completely different. And if you think that Robin getting a pass and Hook getting more scrutiny has nothing to do with inherent bias within the SF fan club who simply don’t care for Hook bc he’s not Neal, then I think we aren’t being honest with ourselves. And I think THAT is just one instance of the double standard Mike is referring to that can get quite annoying for people who are fans of Hook as a character.
EDIT to shorten: The darkness didn’t brainwash him, it didn’t force him to do any of that. His own feelings and emotions did. Hook is still responsible for his actions. He was so angry at Emma he was willing and had the power to send her to hell for she did. Being the dark one doesn’t take away his accountability any more than it should from Rumpel and all the crap he’s putting everyone through since he’s still the dark one.
Agree to disagree I guess. The way I see it, Hook begged Emma not to make him a DO. Bc he knew what would happen if she did. He knew he wouldn’t be as strong as her. He knew if he tasted the darkness again, he wouldn’t be able to control himself. But Emma still did, to save his life obviously, but there are consequences and Hook still had demons in him he was fighting and the darkness latched onto it and Nimue in particular was using his weakness for lust and revenge against him. She was manipulating and tricking him until the very end. I just do not blame Hook for everything. The way the show presented itself, it made us feel like the darkness grabs hold of your weakest traits and exposes them for the world to see. I don’t think we were supposed to look at all of that and think, man Hook is truly a horrible person deep down. I think you were supposed to look at it like, man no wonder why it was taking Hook so long to come around as a good person, he has so much hate buried deep down, we have to save him before he destroys the entire town (due to the darkness)!!! I cannot emphasize more that Hook wouldn’t have done any of those things if he didn’t become the DO which he specifically told Emma not to do. But again, it’s debatable, so agree to disagree.
But once Hook found out what she had done, he was prepared to literally send her and her entire family to hell because he was angry at her. If Emma had enough of herself within her to know what she was doing, Hook did as well.
I just saw it as an addiction. When you give an addict a drug, they are going to abuse it. Emma wasn’t a bad person before. So when she got the DO power, it didn’t have the same effect as it did on Hook. Hook had been trying to redeem himself and be a better person and the darkness brought out his thirst for revenge and hatred. But just because you give a drug addict a drug and they abuse it, doesn’t mean he’s a bad person. Especially since he was able to fight it in the end and not go through with sending everyone to Hell.
i get that. My issue is that his character doesn’t extend far beyond that. When he does its always shortlived or makes it way to being about romance and emma. I disliked the dark Swan arc near the end for this reason. They took an amazing plotline (emma becoming evil, Hook becoming a dark one, the very thing he hates) and made it into CS centered plot. Snowing often has this issue as well where they do the majority of things in stories that center around their relationship. But Snowing still has many more connections to other other characters outside of each other and have for many seasons.
I think that’s fair. One question though. How exactly did they turn the dark swan/dark Hook plotline into CS centric? I mean they were together as a couple when all that went down. So like if you make both of them DO’s, it’s going to affect the relationship. But it wasn’t just that. Emma ended up being able to fight it. Hook couldn’t fight it and turned into a monster and tried to kill the whole town. It was’t necessarily just about the CS ship. At least that’s not how I felt.
To give an example: Let Hook find out his ship was actually cursed by Ursula and now Davy Jones will come to claim his soul. And he has to do something about that. Let Hook find out that not being in Neverland anymore will cause him to age rapidly and die, and he has to get Rumpel to help him despite them hating eachother. I mean, these all sound stupid, but they can make it work. Let Hook do something. Emma can be there for support, sure, but let the dude have a goal again!
All of this sounds amazing honestly. I think you proved they could certainly write a story around Hook that doesn’t have to do with Emma.
The entire episode where Henry and Hook went down to the sub was pretty much Henry disliking Hook. They were better off at the end then the beginning, but they still weren’t friends. Charming has never been Hook’s friend. He just in this half said something like he just wants Emma to be happy, which is the party line for the group. They just want Emma to be happy. They are not friends with Hook. Belle has no one and is barely a character in her own right, so her talking to Hook is meaningless. They are never going to be friends in any real sense. They have conversations. They are not friends.
Oh man it seems there is a strong bias against this character from you. Henry didn’t love Hook, but he certainly didn’t despise him. And when the EQ twisted the shears situation and put Hook in a dark light to create chaos and to make Henry hate Hook, Henry fell for it. That’s why he was upset with Hook in that episode in the beginning. And by the end of it, he understood why Hook kept the shears and even basically said he accepted him as part of the family…oh and you know saved his life after Hook sacrificed his own so Henry could escape. To boil it down and say the whole episode was Henry disliking Hook is so ridiculous to me. It’s like you don’t even want to see the character progression.
And as far as Charming goes. Even if they aren’t friends, I think it’s say to say that if you’ve watched the last couple seasons, you can see that Charming no longer dislikes Hook. It’s not just because he wants Emma to be happy so he accepts it. He has grown to like him. You can grow to like somebody and still not be friends with them. Again, there has been character progression here as well that you simply are choosing to ignore.
And to say Belle is barely a character to begin with is….well that’s just silly. She has her father Maurice, she has Rumple, she has Snowing, she has Mother Superior, she even has bonded with Zelena. And to once again boil there interactions down to just having conversations is also ridiculous. Have you forgotten he let her stay at his place (his boat) so she could be safe from Rumple? You chalk that up to just conversation? What about when Rumple’s plan backfired and Hook saved Belle and Gideons life (and Rumple’s) by killing Jekyll and thus killing Mr. Hyde? Is that just conversation too? You are ignoring all of it bc it fits your anti-Hook agenda. It’s really quite remarkable.
He is not only just Emma’s boyfriend and completely unconnected from all the other characters, he is a terrible boyfriend. He has treated Emma like crap and on multiple occasions almost been responsible for her death and the death of her family. Also, he is sleazy and a rapist and characters don’t come back from that on a tv show. They don’t come back from that and then date and marry the protagonist. He is a terrible character and should have died a long time ago.
And without going into this, because I could, I would like to know what he ahs done to Emma that was bad other than when he was a DO. When he was a DO, everything that he did and said is under everyone’s own interpretation. I happen to think the darkness grabs the worst part of you and then your hatred comes out. And since Hook had more darkness from his past, he was a much meaner DO than Emma was. Also Hook was just plain weak and enjoyed the tasty darkness as if it were a drug. But my point is I don’t blame him for anything he did as the DO. That wasn’t him. The darkness took over him. But again, that is up for interpretation, but what else has Hook done, other than when he was the DO, within the last few years that was in poor taste towards Emma? I just think you hold how he was before he started dating Emma (a womanizer) and still hold it against him. But it seems you give other characters a pass (like Regina’s old self and how she used to be, or Rumple). And that’s the double standard that really rubs me the wrong way. If other characters can be redeemed, why can’t Hook?
Dont u think he could be more like he once was?
So that’s the problem though isn’t it? The way he once was with a single pirate only interested in using his looks and charm to persuade women to sleep with him, is no more. Now, he’s in love with Emma, and is trying to be a better person. So he’s a different character now bc his character changed. However, if you are sick of him just being on Emma’s shoulder all the time, perhaps the writers could write something for Hook that has nothing to do with Emma. The closest we got was Dark Waters which brought back Liam and further developed Henry and Hook’s relationship. Even though that whole adventure was started bc Hook decided to keep the shears in case he ever had to use them on Emma haha. But creating stories for Hook that have nothing to do with his gf, the Savior and the central character of the show, is very hard at this point considering we are getting to the end and ultimately Hook and Emma are probably gonna remain together til the end. The big arc for Hook was season 5 when he became the DO. Now, the end of the show should be about Emma and right now, Hook is with Emma so we are getting a lot of them together. Now we have yet to learn of Hook’s mother which is oddly curious. But if the show is to end this season, that is a story that could be interesting for Hook and one they should try and address. Wouldn’t it be crazy if it turned out Black Fairy was also Hook’s mother and Rumple and Hook turned out to be brothers? Just saying….anything can happen on this show. But because this season’s overall arc is Emma being the Savior and Saviors not getting happy endings, Hook, being her boyfriend, is going to play the boyfriend part a lot.
Thanks for proving to me that you’re clearly still bitter about what happened to Neal and SF even though it was literally 3 years ago.
*laughing with glee…..
nd furthermore if you want to bring up 3B don’t twist things please. Hook came back through trading the thing he viewed as his home for over 300 years all for the sake of the chance of finding Emma and reuniting her with her family. That was the goal. It had nothing to do with winning Emma. Are we forgetting how long it took Hook to tell Emma how he found her? How he got to her? In fact all throughout the season he avoided the question until in the season finale Emma asked him. If it really was all about finding and getting w/ Emma he would not have hesitated in telling her how he did it but that wasn’t his intentions. His only intentions were reuniting her with her family and stopping the new threat.
PREACH. It’s funny how many people who dislike Hook forget all the good things he has done. The whole Jolly Roger thing particularly gets lost.
n order for me to be happy with Hook, I just want the character to be fun again. Swooning over Emma is not fun. Flashbacks mean to show that he was really good all along, is not fun. Other characters liking him and talking to him won’t make me like him as a character. I loved Hook’s episode with Ursula. I loved the Dark Hook thing. I even loved his Hades adventure with Arthur. I give hook props when props are due. But I’m just not here for the constant lap dog Hook who exists solely to be Emma’s mate/kindred spirit/true love/boyfriend/ whatever ya’ll want to call it.
I think it’s fair to say you enjoyed Hook more as a villain and find his nice redeeming self to be, well less interesting and more on the boring side, right? And with Regina, you found both her evil side and her nice side to be interesting?
Well I’m going to come to Michael’s defense a little here. I don’t agree with everything but there are certain things that bug me that I’m going to try and pick out.
Hook and Charming aren’t friends.
Have you seen this season? Or last half season? I think it’s clear as day that they have moved past the whole “you’re a pirate and you’re not good enough for my daughter” phase. Either you aren’t watching closely, or you aren’t watching. I don’t even feel this is up for interpretation.
They interact with Hook because he is always with Emma, so if they want to spend time with Emma, then they by default spend time with Hook.
This also is just not always true. Many times, yes. But just this season, Henry and Hook bonded a lot in Dark Waters and Hook was willing to sacrifice his life for Henry, and then Henry in turn, came back and saved Hook. Their relationship has been growing with each passing season. So again, not sure if you missed this episode…Also Hook and Belle hung out without Emma.
Also, Hook and Belle are not friends. They interact because they are side characters who serve no purpose, so they have them interact to not waste the main characters screen time.
So I’m going to ask it again….Did you miss the episode Strange Case? Where he saved her life and killed Jekyll which oh by the way, killed Hyde thus saving Belle, Rumple, and Rumple’s baby? What about in the beginning of the season where she turned to Hook for a safe place to hide from Rumple? And he let her stay on his ship and what not. Like this isn’t even an opinion. These are facts. And you could say he’s not friends with Belle and that he’s only doing this bc anyone would have done the same thing or that he’s actually doing it for selfish reasons and doesn’t actually care about Belle but that is pretty thick.
He is not friends with the Charming family. When they actually talk about him, it isn’t good. They do spend time with him, but as i said, it is mostly in service to saving their family members and not because they are friends or somehow enjoy spending time together. People constantly talk about there being some big friendship between Hook and Charming, but it does not exist. It is all down to people who rewatch Hook scenes over and over again and then take the entire show out of context.
I’m sorry, but again, this is so incredibly wrong. I really should go back and cite specific scenes where they talk fondly of him, but I won’t. To say only Hook fans see it because they are delusional and take things out of context is incredibly rude, presumptuous, and ignorant. So just bc you hate Hook means people who like Hook are seeing the show wrong and making up stuff? Maybe they pay more attention to his scenes bc they care more about him? Who knows? But to dismiss an entire fandom bc they disagree with you is ridiculous. And I’m sorry, but I would love to know the last time anyone in the Charming family said something bad about Hook. Certainly hasn’t been this season.
As far as Hook’s role on the show, it’s to be Emma’s kindred spirit. A lost boy much like her looking for a family and a place to call home which is basically what ALL of our characters storyline on the show is. Hook suffers and owns up to his mistake and knows that redemption is a long winding road and it takes lots of work. Hence why he wears the rings on his finger as a reminder to himself about the things he’s done in the past and to be a better man. He still to this day even though he does view himself as a hero he still has a hard time forgiving himself for his past deeds even if the people around him have already forgiven him. That is how you do a correct redemption arc and I’m not sure how he’s never payed for the things he’s done. He’s literally died for it. You don’t see that with Regina and Rumple. With Regina you have her crimes literally being whitewashed. Oh the curse it was a good thing. Graham…who was that…rape nonsense. Oh she murdered and ruined countless lives….oh that wasn’t her that was The Evil Queen. It’s that kind of ridiculous crap that has her being a character a rarely can stand anymore. The fact that she blames this entity within her as the reason why she’s where she’s at is just a rehash of 4B albeit more poorly contructed and going nowhere. With Rumple…I mean it’s just disgusting what he’s done this past half. From the disgusting GQ, to the literal mental and verbal abuse of Belle. Oh but Hook killed Merlin, and the show has never brought that up again. Same way it has never been brought back up that Regina murdered and raped Graham, the death of Johanna, etc. I’m just saying just within your words alone the double standard is shining through. And sorry to say this but Hook’s role on this show is not to be Emma’s boyfriend. It’s to be her true love and kindred spirit. He’s not simply a boyfriend and anybody that says as such is just bitter.
Honestly, I have to agree with everything here. I too have always believed there was a double standard, especially in this forum. Regina and Rumple’s misdeeds often go brushed aside (slaying a village, stealing babies, raping Graham, etc etc etc etc etc) and Hook’s get put in the spotlight. I’ll use a recent example. We saw a flashback where Rumple stole an innocent family’s child and was willing to let Black Fairy take it away. Did ANYONE dwell on the fact that Rumple is a horrible person for doing that? He stole a child! Nope, instead most talked about how it made sense bc that’s what Rumpelstiltskin does, he takes children. Now, can you imagine if it was a Hook flashback and it showed him taking a child like that in an attempt to find his mother? HE WOULD BE RIDICULED! People would say his redemption arc this season is utter bull and his head would be on a pike. People are just quick to jump on his behavior, even though it is plain to see the man is trying to change and is doing very similar things Regina has done over the past couple years to redeem herself as well. But people view them very differently.
That being said, I love Regina and I have zero problem with the EQ’s story this season. What are the biggest things the EQ ever wanted to accomplish before Regina started redeeming herself? 1. Revenge on Snowing, specifically Snow for not keeping secret. She did that. 2. Create chaos as she always loved to do and I think she has done plenty of that. 3. Get rid of the Savior from her son, which she just did. So I will defend this season and defend Regina as a character. But there is no doubt she gets more of a pass than Hook does. It seems like people who do not like Hook are putting the character on egg shells, just waiting for him to say or do something they disagree with. And because they don’t like him and are looking for slip ups, they don’t really give him credit when he helps Emma.
Which brings me to my next point I agree with Matt on. I don’t view him as just a boyfriend either. Emma is the center of the show. And Emma is going through some tough times right now. Yes, maybe Hook has been someone who just makes her feel better but that is IMPORTANT bc she is important to the show. He is the Robin to her Batman. Is he a central part of the show? Ehh. Don’t forget Dark Waters where his brother Liam came back and was seeking revenge on Henry and Hook. But if you took him away from Batman, it wouldn’t be the same. Emma is going through a crisis as a Savior and with all the Savior Mythology coming up that they have been teasing, and with her death sentence future dream with Gideon, Hook’s part has become important. Emma needs to believe she is the Savior and that she can do anything bc she is the product of true love! Regina has helped her realize this in the Wish Realm and Hook did it in Storybrooke as well. I don’t remember anyone complaining when Robin was Regina’s moral compass and helpful boyfriend. No one said he was a bad character.
It just seems like Hooks character exists solely because of CS, his entire function on this show is to be Emma’s boyfriend, and anyone saying he needs to be written better is taken as being a CS hater.
Well I said Robin needed to be written better. I never said I didn’t like OQ. And Hook’s character exists bc when he came on the show, he was different and gave the show someone we hadn’t seen before. He still exists bc he’s dating the main character of the show but it’s not why he exists in the first place.
And let us not forget what Henry’s true feelings of Hook are, as revealed through the shattered mirror curse.
And again, that was in season 4A. We are halfway through season 6. People change. Hook has changed and people around him have noticed, including Henry. People are becoming more accepting of him. Should I pull quotes from season 2 when everyone said Regina was a bad person? Nope, let me pull one from Dark Waters this season which you conveniently seemed to have ignored to better suit your argument.
Killian: You understand why I need those shears, right?<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Henry: You love her too.
Killian: I thought I told you to leave.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Henry: And if I listened, you’d be dead.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Killian: Well I’m glad you didn’t. What made you come back?<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Henry: You said you couldn’t ruin one more family, neither could I.<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Killian: Are you saying you think of me as part of?<br style=”box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Raleway, sans-serif; font-size: 20px;” />Henry: Don’t push it.
Man that really sounds like someone who hates Hook right? Henry has come a long way. And if you’re going to cite something a little boy said years ago when he recently lost his actual father and now was watching this new guy date his mom, and not chalk up a lot of it to him not being ready to see his mom date someone new, then you are being very thick.
And I’ll end on this. As RG said, clearly Hook is a very divisive character. Look at the difference of opinions! But bc he is divisive, it’s what makes him interesting, for me at least. When half the fandom loves him and half hates him, it’s hard to say he’s boring. Those are the types of characters that spawn debate and interesting conversation. I don’t view EQ/Regina as divisive as Hook at all. Everyone loves her. But because she has done horrible things, like Hook, and has been trying to redeem herself, like Hook, the fact that Hook is way more divisive than EQ/Regina only further highlights the double standard that is going on here.
