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This is intriguing simply based on the possibility that they are bringing back the old Emma Swan, and no more Hook lovey dovey Emma Swan. She is the Savior. Let’s get her back on track.
For the record, Dopey’s tree transformation was not a death thing.
Right, but if we never see Dopey again, I can see them treating it as such.
What’s kind of annoying about all of this, is Dopey was always my favorite dwarf. And with the show returning to smaller story lines this season and a larger overarching 22 episode arc similar to season 1, I thought this was a good time to incorporate Dopey, and give him an episode that would revolve around de-treeing him. I feel like they could really give a good OUAT spin on the character- find out why he is mute, where he got his purple hat, maybe why he is so silly. Basically, I wanted an episode similar to Grumpy’s from season 1. And now that they are shifting back towards that way of story telling, and since Dopey had not been saved from the tree, I thought this was the perfect time for it. So if anything, this news is a little bit disappointing, although as nickyhelp said, nothing is for certain yet. I have a hard time believing that they would go around with only 6 dwarves now without even addressing the alleged tree death of Dopey, mainly because although the dwarves are incredibly minor characters (especially after Grumpy), they serve a canon purpose for Snow White and if she doesn’t have 7 dwarves anymore, I feel like that would be addressed, at the very least mentioned that he’s still a tree and they don’t know what to do.
Yeah for me, if they really want to make him all good and take out his sense of mystery as far as what he’s going to do and if you can trust him, his final step in his transformation should be removing his Hook for a hand.
Ha, how entertaining. I think it’s pretty clear the writer’s just don’t know where they are going with the entire next season just yet. It’s too early to read into anything I think.
Ways to use Poison Ivy that aren’t sexualized: • Have her deal with problems controlling her powers, Elsa-style. • Explore the possibility that the plants she creates are an extension of her, Flame Princess-style. • Have her advocate for environmental reform. • Have her take down chemical companies (Ace Chemicals, perhaps?).
But isn’t poison ivy the epitome of using her looks to get what she wants? Why would you guys want them to stray from the character? That would be like hoping Nygma isn’t a twisted genius but instead was a dummy.
Ahh, let me first start by saying I was making general comments. I was not specifically saying how people on here felt about Hook when he first was introduced. I am talking about other forums, and friends that I have who watch the show. And I have found, that those who really liked Neal, and really liked Swanfire, do not like Hook. Whether that is simply coincidence, I do not know. But for me, it has been a pattern that I cannot overlook. Fans of Swanfire may say they hate specific things about Hook, and that’s why they hate him, but it is quite interesting to me that a majority of the haters of Hook, were Swanfire fans.
Not even the tiniest bit true. I (and actually a great portion of the people who continue to dislike Hook) have disliked Hook from the moment I met him and we saw his first few episodes. I found him neither compelling nor overly interesting. I had problems with him from a feminist standpoint, from a media standpoint, and from a rape culture standpoint–the caveat being that those criticisms are only getting worse as the show goes on and the show adds more story to him.
If you truly did not find Hook’s introduction to the show compelling, or the very least, a little interesting, then that is truly odd to me. Everyone has tastes, but he was such a different character that the show didn’t have. It felt new and like a breathe of fresh air. Now, that being said, I understand why you would personally have issues with his behavior from a feminist standpoint, and I agree, his actions go unpunished and get swept under the rug too often. But out of the gate, I feel like a lot of people, even Swanfire fans, thought Hook was interesting. It was when he started going after Emma and interfering with Neal’s intentions that more Swanfire fans really started to really hate him. Is that a coincidence? Maybe. But yes, I am generalizing here. It is just my own experiences with friends and family and other forums that I have had. And it makes sense. Why would I support a character who is trying to ruin a ship that I support?
There is a through-line in your reasoning that because I ship something else or enjoyed another character more the criticisms I and others have against Hook/CS are, ispo facto, null and void and that they can’t possibly hold any relevance/weight because of something I just happen ship. It’s a unique frustration that any well thought out argument I, a well educated critical analyst, may have is instantly dismissed as the anger of an upset shipper.
I don’t believe I ever said your opinions were null and void. I simply said broadly that I’ve found a lot of Swanfire fans criticize Hook more than others on the show because he’s with Emma. I’m not saying you specifically. You know I never dismiss your opinions on here.
Emma can date whomever the heck she wants–Hook, Regina, Random Peasant #45621. I don’t really care who she dates anymore; I care about the message this TV show is sending out when the morally grey character does straight up bad things (like murder) and never gets taken to task for it all while the relationship in question is being lauded as the greatest love story of the ages. It’s disturbing. They want to redeem Hook and put him with Emma? Fine. That’s their choice; but it means the writers have to openly acknowledge the bad things he’s done and not have it whitewahsed through exposition of one character (Emma, see for instance episode 3×15) or have it forgotten altogether. You cannot deny that those two things have been done.
This I agree with. Perhaps fans are so critical of Hook when he slips up because the writers make it so easy to forget. It’s like fans are overcompensating for the writers who seem to let Hook off easy at times.
Malarkey. Come on. You know as well as I that some of the most active threads of this past year have been about Rumple and whether or not he’s redeemable, good or bad, light or dark, whether his relationship with Belle is worth saving and whether or not his actions have any sort of organic reasoning that fits with 5 years worth of story. Don’t make it out that there hasn’t been tons of Rumple criticism in this fandom, just in the past two years alone (this is to say nothing of the way many fans hated him right off the bat because of his manipulation of the Charmings)
Criticism and discussion, yes. Whether he is redeemable, yes. Whether his love for Belle will ever outweigh his thirst for power, yes. But with Hook it’s more like attacking on here. When Rumple does something bad, people on here tend to try and make excuses for him, or try and say well he’s always been this way, he’s torn and he wants to have both power and love. And it’s an actual debate because the fandom legitimately is divided on whether he is a morally grey character anymore, or of he truly is an evil villain. With Hook, it’s never about the good things he does on here. Ever. It gets downplayed massively. And we don’t talk about how grey he is and have debates about his character like we do with Rumple. Everyone thinks he is trash. When he gives into the darkness and makes a bad mistake, he gets slammed. No excuses made, no debate, no trying to defend his actions or what he’s feeling. I have tried, and failed on here. We don’t talk about the good things he’s done, and then the bad things and compare and try and see the type of person he truly is. To Swanfire fans (or at least many I have interacted with) he is garbage and is not treated like a grey character at all when in fact he is the best example of it on the show right now.
Yay! A Hook person.
Maybe I’m of the unpopular opinion here but I have and do enjoy this character immensely. I’ve binged through seasons 4 and 5 the last few weeks and now that I am caught up I think I can actually say Hook is my favorite character. I’ve loved him from the very beginning. It seems a lot of people want to put him in either the Hero or Villain category and I just don’t understand why? He’s perfect being the morally grey character who wants to be good but also wants to give in to his pirate nature. To me, the fact that he went to an abandoned boy, to ‘failure’ as a young man, then to Naval officer, then to heinous pirate out for revenge, to lovestruck man struggling to find where he fits in a world that seems to draw a hard line between good and bad fascinating.
I think a lot of what you say here is accurate. He is morally grey and so I do find many people get upset with him when he does something bad. But there’s a reason for that. These anti-Hook fans would be fine when Hook slips up if he wasn’t dating Emma. The other problem is Neal. As a fan of the show, apparently you can’t be a fan of both Hook, and Neal. I happen to be one of the few. See, many people enjoyed Hook when Neal was still around. But then when he died, Hook swooped in with Emma, and now he gets compared to Neal. Neal was not the morally grey character Hook is, and he always did the right thing. So his relationship with Emma was very different than Hook’s is. Hook has struggled. Deep down, he may not be a great person, but he wants to be. He wants to change for Emma. But again, when he slips up, he gets crap for it. And when he does something good, it gets downplayed.
Newsflash to everyone: Emma is allowed to date a morally grey character. If she wants to date someone who makes bad choices sometimes, that’s her decision and clearly she has been spending too much time with Belle. But Rumple could be considered morally grey too but he doesn’t get the criticism that Hook does because people have just accepted that he’s a bad person now. So because Hook is trying to be good for the Savior, he gets criticized more. I do think it is unfair. But as you said, his struggle to do the right thing remains interesting, at least for me. Because even though most characters have done some bad things on the show, Hook really is the only legit grey character anymore. Rumple is full on evil, Snow and Charming did one bad thing in the past but that’s it, and it was manipulated by the author anyway. They are as good as it gets. Regina has struggled, but has not wavered to the dark side. She is good. Emma fought darkness and won. And now even Zelena is good after killing Hades. So while some characters have become bland and stale and one note, that’s definitely not something you can say about Hook. He has flaws. He maybe doesn’t give enough support and credit towards others who have helped him. He thirst for revenge clearly still lurks down deep as illustrated by the darkness bringing it out of him. And when put on the spot, we still aren’t completely sure if he would save his own skin, or do the noble thing and help others. I think it is clear he would do anything for Emma, and was willing to move on to let her live her life, but it remains unclear if he would treat others the same as he treats Emma. For me, this character needs to be tested. Have him make a decision that could really hurt him, but help Charming or Snow or Regina or even better, Rumple. That would be a huge step for his character. There is still a part of me that thinks he would still save his skin and lie to Emma about it. But that uncertainty is precisely why he’s still an interesting part of the show.
And I do think if we got as much screen time as Regina gets with her inner struggle, as we did with Hook, the transition for him would feel more organic. But since season 3, we haven’t delved into his psyche much. The darkness took over, and then he died. But I would like to see his inner struggles like Regina. Perhaps it would make him more sympathetic when he does make the wrong decision.
