[thelonebamf]

@KFChimera wrote:

Snow says to disguised Regina that in her mind the Queen was in too much pain and looking for someone to blame. The she sees the bodies and changes her mind. Yet we know she changes her mind back again at the scene in the Cricket Game flashback, where Regina was about to be executed.

So now I wonder this–what made her change her mind back? What good did she see in Regina after the village slaughter?

Remember, by that point Snow is no longer a stranger to the idea of wanting revenge. After taking the potion she procured from Rumplestiltskin, she felt the desire to kill Regina. It’s possible that after experiencing that she realized what it’s like to be enshrouded in anger and darkness, but that it is possible to come back from that place.

[thelonebamf]

@RumplesGirl wrote:

^This. *have a cookie*

For me? ^_^ Now the question… to eat it up, or become THE KEEPER OF THE COOKIE? XD

Sacrifice is definitely interlaced with true love, or at the very least the willingness to put the other person before yourself, but I think that it’s maybe not the defining characteristic. Emma and Henry’s relationship is “true love”-y enough to break the curse, but only Henry made much of a sacrifice by putting his life on the line. Emma simply realized she loved him as her own. We could get really technical and say that Emma is sacrificing her solitude and making herself vulnerable by admitting she cares about others, but that seems a little grey. We could just as easily find sacrifice in more or less any relationship in the show and a lot of it would be more clearly defined even in cases of “not exactly true love”.

Another interesting relationship to poke at is Milah and Hook. Their relationship is defined in the show as being true love. Milah does make a sacrifice in leaving her son behind, although strangely we see no regret in her at any time. (I’ll just assume she made her peace with this behind closed doors.) Hook on the other hand has yet to make a sacrifice for her. He fell in love with her, they ran off, end of story. He did lose his hand, but I hesitate to call that a sacrifice *for* Milah. Losing his hand wasn’t a choice he made in her name. It would be interesting (if say, we go to Neverland and get a closer look at Hook, his backstory, and his relationship with Milah) if we discover that the two of them did deal with Milah’s guilt over leaving her son, and perhaps that influences his actions in the finale. Maybe he ends up seeing something of Milah in Bae, and this influences him not to kill Gold after all. He could sacrifice his revenge and leave with the satisfaction of being the “better man”.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Ah, apologies surayya, I may have been unclear in my meaning. I agree with what you said about the blue fairy. My point was simply that that scene with August and Gold at the abbey is an early example of the writers manipulating the dialogue to make the Blue Fairy seem as though she has an ulterior motive, or knows more than she does, when actually she is telling the truth (although perhaps not the whole truth- because she doesn’t know it as in this situation). The dialogue, plus her expression and attitude (which is an understandable reaction to Mr. Gold as he makes no attempt to pretend he likes the nuns) makes it seem as if she’s hiding something, but she’s not. It’s just a very tidily written scene that takes the viewer exactly where the writers want them to go.

I also agree with your interpretation of good vs evil magic and the way the work, respectively. In a way I think that good magic is very much about giving people tools and helping to influence them to make the right decisions. Evil magic (and Rumplestiltskin is a great example of this) is about tricking people in to taking what is offered (whether it’s what they need or not) and manipulating them into acting the way you want them to. Last night’s episode was a fantastic illustration of this.

Regarding Cora and the concept of true love- I think that this show makes some interesting contrasts between the different kinds of love. Sadly, english doesn’t have as many words for love as other languages say… Greek, so we’re restricted to one word that covers such a wide variety of feelings. Do you love your pet? Your child? Your friend? Your spouse? Are these feelings even remotely the same to one another? Even romantic love has many different colors. No two relationships are the same. (Even two different relationships between the same two people can vary greatly based on when they occur and who those people are at that time in their lives.)

I think this concept is very relevant to Rumplestiltskin, because he has had several lifetimes worth of experiences and has three distinct relationships with women that I think can all be classified as love. I’m sure that if you asked pre-war Rumple and Milah “Do you love your husband/wife?” the answer would have been “Of course I do!” We don’t know a lot about how the two came together- but they did and for a time they were happy. Why wasn’t this true love? Because in the end Milah wanted more than he could give her and that desire eventually destroyed the feelings she had for her husband. She wanted adventure, she wanted power over her own life- things that being the wife of a reviled coward would never award her.

So this brings us to Cora. Again, I believe that their feelings for one another were genuine. I don’t even think that it’s Cora’s liklihood to have brought out the “darkness” in Rumple that makes their love different from “true love”. Her situation was almost the opposite of Milah’s. She could have had nearly limitless power and control if she had left with Rumplestiltskin, however her father-in-law made it clear that she would be giving up other things, namely peace of mind and the comfort of living amongst others. It was actually a desire for the more domestic comforts that kept her from leaving with the Dark One. Again, she wanted something he could not give her.

So that brings us to Belle. Why is Belle’s love true? She clearly has her doubts about the man as evidenced by her frequent departures. However, Belle- unlike the other two, doesn’t desire Rumplestiltskin for what he can do for her. She wants adventure, she wants love, but she is also smart enough to know that these things must come from within oneself. Belle makes her own opportunities (like agreeing to go with the Dark One to save her people as an act of bravery that might not have been afforded to her otherwise).

In the end, I don’t think “True Love” should be confused with “Real Love”. I think that all of these women had real love in their hearts at one point, and I think “real love” is all around in their world, while “true love” is so much rarer. Instead, I think that “true” refers to the people themselves who have love in their hearts. Belle is true to herself. All she wants from Rumplestiltskin is for him to be true to himself.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Greg makes a reference to “metal”, I wonder if this has any connection to the traditional lore that iron is capable of restricting the magic (of fairies at least).

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

I for one am stoked. I was really hoping to end the season with neither Gold or Regina in possession of magic. One down… one to go…

I’m wondering if Malificent is dead now. The only way Hook could have realistically made if out of their alive is if he disrupted her magic powers, thereby taking away whatever “sustained her” and managed to get back up (via the elevator or whatever). Of course assuming that he didn’t just “rule of cool” his way out of there. ^_^

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

I think there’s a little room for debate on what “full-on evil” means. That is to say, I think that of course, Regina’s actions were evil and fueled by revenge when she killed the villagers. Her behavior as monarch are cruel and unjust and completely centered on killing Snow, despite the fact that there is no reason to believe that her people will love her after. However, just because she is acting in an evil way during the events of the episode does not mean at that time that she is irredeemable. When Snow begins talking about the idea of reconciliation, Regina legitimately responds with interest. She entertains the idea that they could be a part of a family again (and she doesn’t flinch at the idea of being the one who needs forgiveness) and you can tell she is hoping to reveal herself to Snow so they can have a fresh start.

It’s strange, at this point she seems to have practically forgotten about the dozens of villagers she put to death. Why? Because that was a “crime of passion” if you will. It was her response to being disappointed and frustrated and angry that she wasn’t receiving the help that she wanted. It is of course evil, but evil in a different sense than the later Regina we see.

Rumplestiltskin’s plan wasn’t to make Regina more evil than she already was (that was covered during the events with Dr. Frankenstein) but to temper her, create someone who could start to see the “big picture” as it were. Regina’s actions until this point were very quick, reactionary, and short-sighted. “I’ll kill Snow, then the peasants will love me and… it will be great. Yeah. Then I’ll be happy.” The Regina after the events of this episode is not a fiery, passionate being who acts out of impulse, she is calm, cold, and calculating. This is exactly the kind of person who would be willing to cast a curse with such horrific implications- because they’re looking at how they’ll benefit in the long run.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

I thought she was talking about Red since she was specific about hunting. She seemed a little sheepish about the way she said it as well, as though there was a sort of joke or slightly embarrassing part to the story. It would be funny to learn about hunting and tracking from a werewolf.

It’s definitely plausible that she learned her bandit skills from Robin!

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Sorry for the double post, but I think I developed a pet theory while chopping spinach today. 🙂

I think that indeed, Sir Maurice is a knight and he was granted his knighthood for services rendered. Whatever his position is, it is clear that he has done well for himself and his daughter and that they live in relative comfort. I think we hear more definitive references to “our village” and “our town” and I think that those are more important than when we hear “my kingdom” because if they were high enough up in royal rankings to be in control of an entire kingdom, they probably wouldn’t be talking about specific towns, however as leaders of a small community they would be concerned about how their town may play a part in the bigger picture.

Sir Maurice is bent over a table in a war room, working on a plan against the ogres. This lends me to believe that he has skills as a military planner. We’ve talked an awful lot about real world knighthoods etc, but I’m going to go ahead and return to the Disney tale as a source of background information. Maurice in the film was a bit of an eccentric, but he was most importantly an inventor. He was a creator of ideas. This particular skill set would flourish in time of war.

I think that perhaps in the earlier years of the ogre war, Maurice was recruited to develop some kind of military technoology. It wouldn’t be a hard sell. He had a daughter to think of and nobody wants their land ravaged by ogres. Things must have gone well enough because he was granted a knighthood and is financially successful. Enough so that he is able to offer gold as payment to Rumplestiltskin (when other kingdoms are flat broke) so perhaps he was able to sell his inventions to other kingdoms that were embroiled in battle.

This backstory would align fairly well with what we’ve seen of Maurice and Bell. He has risen to a high position with influence after his inventions did well, now he’s an advisor in the war. He’s been financially successful and has been able to provide Belle with a comfortable life- but he has probably shielded her from much of the ugliness of war, but she’s smart enough and compassionate enough to care about what her father’s work really means and what is happening outside their walls. It would also encourage Belle to make some sort of effort of her own towards ending the fighting, after seeing how hard her father has worked to bring peace to the land she herself would want to do what she could- to do the brave thing.

I don’t think that saying things like “my people” or “my kingdom” really indicate that she’s a princess. Anyone might use those phrases and all it really indicates is that they are loyal to their homeland and interested in the wellbeing of those who live there.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Just a little note about the Blue Fairy- something that caught my attention while reviewing the episode “The Return”, in my mind I thought she had purposely misled Rumplestiltskin when he visited her at the abbey, but I realized this was just clever writing.

She tells Gold that August has been
-Looking for guidance
-Searching for his father
-Hadn’t spoken to him yet
-Because it had been a difficult parting

Gold (and the audience) assume she is referring to Bae, even though we have no reason to believe BF has her memories of FTL back. However, knowing who August really is, all of BF’s words apply quite well to Pinocchio’s story. Haha! Clever boy! It’s possible that August went seeking out actual help regarding his own situation, but set her up in such a way that if she revealed anything to Gold, it would help support the notion that he was actually Baelfire. I have to go with this idea because when Gold confronts August in the woods, August assumes that Gold thinks he is his son, but all Gold says is “I know who you really are, and what you’re looking for”.

Although, I guess August could have gauged how much Mr. Gold knew by that statement.

“I know who you are.”
Either he knows who I really am, Pinocchio, or he’s found the misinformation I’ve left behind and he thinks I’m Baelfire.
“And I know what you’re looking for.”
Ah ha! He’s found the clues I left about the dagger, meaning he’s likely snapped up the other false leads I left, leading him to believe that I’m Baelfire.

And thus August lays on the “Papa”. Ouch.

So yes, I think this is actually an early example of Plot Device Blue Fairy. She’s there to deliver misinformation to the audience and other characters, but not out of malice (she doesn’t even want to tell Gold anything until he threatens to raise the rent)- just out of narrative necessity.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

[thelonebamf]

Pardon if this is rehashing old territory, but has anyone spent much time pondering Rumplestiltskin’s “sliding scale of makeup” as an indicator of the curse’s hold on him (and as an informer on the timeline)? I started noticing that the amount of makeup Carlyle dons as the Dark One changes quite a lot from episode to episode. In general from what I’ve seen about special effects makeup, makeup teams generally come up with a template to follow for a character to help streamline the process and help it look consistent from shoot to shoot- but the differences in the makeup seem very pronounced which leads me to believe that it as a conscious effort to show the effects of the curse at a given time.

For example, right after receiving the curse from Zozo, Rumplestiltskin looks fairly normal. There is a definite dark influence over him- but it’s like a shadow. His eyes have been shadowed, his skin is sallow and he appears to be wearing contacts. Even in “The Return”, there are some scenes where it’s almost possible to miss the Dark One makeup (like the daytime scene in the forest with Bae, the lighting through the trees hides the SFX makeup). This makes plenty of sense because at that point Rumple is concerned with using his powers for overall good. he wants to protect his son. He wanted to bring an end to the fighting in the Ogres War. He’s not very judicious about how he uses his powers, but he’s not really out to prove anything or accomplish anything other than bettering the life of his son. The curse definitely has a hold on him, but I don’t think he realizes it. He still believes he controlls the curse, not the other way around.

In other episodes, he is positively green and covered in what looks like glitter- there is a visible textural difference to his skin. (I think the makeup also ends up making the lines on Carlyle’s face more pronounced, which adds a sinister quality and makes many of his expressions seem much more over the top. It’s almost like a mask.) Even at the end of the FTL sequence in “The Return” he seems noticeably more “made up”. There is a shine to his face and the curse’s influence is more evident.

This may also just be the makeup department using its skills to influence the viewer, of course. Rumplestiltskin’s makeup in “Skin Deep” is fairly minimal, likely to help the audience sympathize with the character the way Belle is starting to. Most of that episode, it looks like he just has a bit of a muddied foundation on- that is until the last scene in the dungeon, where it looks like the glitter is back. By the very end of the episode when Regina comes in to gloat, his skin is practically grey and we see more of the “textured” makeup on his face. (He’s also put his ‘crocodile’ coat back on, another layer of defense against the cruel world. He’s back to playing the over the top villain as a means of protecting himself- rather than having his defenses down as he did while wearing more casual clothing around Belle) This could just be me, or the lighting, or whatever, but it’s interesting to think about. As I rewatch the series, I’ll probably be paying a bit more attention to the makeup, less as a timestamp (because I think the curse’s control fluctuates and is often at odds with Rumplestiltskin’s own willpower) but more as an idea of what his state at any given time might be.

"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."

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