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Oh do look in to it. If you’re a fan of interpretations of fairy tale characters, it’s got a fantastic story and great art. The first few issues are a little bit “Okay guys, this is how the universe works, this is the setting…” but it very quickly develops into a great tale.
[adrotate group="5"]"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@RumplesGirl wrote:
From a poetic standpoint, I think the first deal he made was with the old man who of course turned out to be the previous Dark One. As Zozo dies he even says that now Rumple will think twice before making a deal he doesn’t understand.
That makes sense as the first deal, but I do think that for a while, after assuming those powers Rumplestiltskin seemed to naively believe that he could be a “different kind” of Dark One. This is evidenced in his pride in “bringing the children home” from the Ogre wars etc. He used his power for sure- but not in a bargaining kind of way, at least not the way we have come to associate with the character. I do think that the deals are very much unique to Rumplestiltskin as the Dark One, not the Dark One curse in general, as though the dying words of Zozo made an impression on him and he took them to heart.
More important is the deal he made with Bae. He made it the way anyone else would make an agreement with their child, and then he broke it with disastrous consequences. I think at that moment he decided he would never break a deal again, and from that point on he became fixated on bargains and teaching people the consequences of dealing with magic. (Deal deal deal. I’ve said it so many times it doesn’t look like a word anymore.)
My pet theory for S3 is that we’re going to see both Regina and Rumple without magic. I think it gives them both immense room to grow as characters and it will make for enjoyable watching, especially if they are continually tempted with trying to take back their powers. Plus, it opens up doors to see Rumbelle grow and Papastilstkin and Bae (which I am all in favor for) and I’d like to see Regina try to really mother Henry with Emma, learn how to not rely so heavily on magic or at all.
I’d be up for that! I think Rumple would end up having a bit of a crisis between finally being free of the curse, but also believing himself too weak to protect his family, and now without anything to offer Belle. After all, without the curse- perhaps he’d think there’s no “layers” for Belle to uncover and that she might lose interest in an old man who knows a bit about sheep. (Not my feelings on the character at all, but he does seem to be hard on himself.) Of course we know Belle wouldn’t feel that way, but that’s some delicious internal struggle to sink our teeth in to!
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Mmmh. Again, agree. We got some hints in Lacey that his reputation isn’t really as sinister as we might expect. He’s known for making deals. If he truly wanted to be embrace ALL the Darkness of being the Dark One, why deal? He could easily just kill someone to get what he wanted. I think Belle knew this. I think she saw that he was lonely. She says as much in Skin Deep, “Why did you want me here?” “Place was filthy” “I think you were lonely.” He didn’t really want “good help” I think he wanted someone to talk to, even if that talking to wasn’t really polite conversation.
You know, I really hadn’t thought about the deal-making aspect of the character until just now, but you bring up a lot of excellent points. There was very little he could not take by force as the Dark One, so it is interesting that he makes deals and plays games. Some of this is no doubt due to a desire to entertain himself- but I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t an aspect of (admittedly harsh) lesson teaching as well. After all, what better way to teach that magic “comes with a price” than to hand the other person an invoice?
I should probably go back and examine the episodes for a better idea of the timeline, but do we have any indication that he was a dealmaker before losing Bae? Admittedly, it wasn’t until after they were parted that he had much need for particular magical items, up until that point, it was just a matter of having influence and a place to live that wasn’t a shack. I’m wondering if the loss of Bae didn’t really hammer home the “price of magic” lesson into Rumple’s head- and he then decided that everyone else should know it as well.
I actually, really, truly hope that next season will show us a magic-less Rumplestiltskin. There seems to be this false dichotomy flying around that Rumple will have to choose between Bae and Belle (as Lacey) but I think the third option is to have Bae & Belle (as Belle) but no magic. I think they brought up the idea in the last podcast that Tamara may steal his magic from him, and I can easily see that happening (to defend Henry or otherwise). If Belle returns and she and Rumple are able to reconcile (or at least be on that path) then I think the loss of magic and fallout from that will provide some great character conflict that will keep their relationship interesting.
I’ve said this other places to some Hook fans who were really upset at Belle’s “rotten heart” comment, but I think it was A) a throw away line and B) said in the heat of the moment by Belle who was staring down the barrel of a gun and trying to escape. Hook obviously doesn’t have a totally rotten heart, that just doesn’t fit with the theme of the show. And we all know that “super powers” can be unreliable when emotions are involved. What’s more emotional than impending death and fear for your True Love?
I really do think you’re right. Belle was lashing out at Hook with the only weapon at her disposal- words.
As to the female heroism things brought up by both BAMF and Myril: I agree, but I think OUaT is the opposite of traditional “anti-feminism” in terms of fighting, power, ect. Thus far, all the big baddies who truly threaten the existence of everyone have been women: Regina, Cora, Tamara. Snow White, in the classic depiction, is really helpless. Our Snow fights, shoots arrows, deals with trolls, can kill Ogres 28 years after firing a bow! Emma Swan is the SAVIOR of an entire people not to mention just flat out awesome. Ruby isn’t just the helpless little girl in a red hood, but also a wolf who can control her powers. Even Granny is a powerhouse with her cross bow at town meetings. One thing this show gets praised for time and time is the way they’ve drawn seriously strong women characters.
This is absolutely true. As season two began and we were treated to images of Snow, Emma, Mulan and Aurora tromping through the woods, I actually say back and went “huh, that isn’t something you see every day”. This show is packed with powerful female characters, all of whom are strong, but flawed- which makes them believable as individuals. Belle is no exception to this rule.
Lol. Seriously, don’t worry about this. I’ll tell you now, we all go on tangents. And where the conversation goes, people follow. The point of this thread is to talk about anything Belle related, whether that’s Rumple and her or just her or just the idea of “Belle” in general.
I really like all your postings.
Thanks, that’s good to know. I know some forums are more particular about people remaining on topic, but it seems so tricky to keep my thoughts on track when there are so many interconnected story elements between all the characters! And uh thank you! I… clearly have lots of things bouncing around inside my head. I’m really happy to have found a place to express them with others. 😀
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
Thanks obisgirl, but I think maybe the compliment is undeserved. ^_^;; Myril brings up a lot of good points, several of which I don’t have a good answer for (but I’ll do my best because hot diggity do I like pulling these sorts of things apart). I’ll do my best to keep it relevant to the thread and as much about OUAT Belle as possible.
I think one of the great things about the show is that it doesn’t deal entirely in absolutes of black/white *or* shades of grey. While the show definitely adheres to some core, unbreakable truths- many of the rules are bendable and open to interpretation. This is fantastic! I love that there are people who disagree with my interpretation of characters and who adore characters I loathe. When I first started poking into the fandom and saw the huge amount of support within the fandom for Regina I was surprised and then overjoyed. I really dislike Regina, but the show is varied enough that other people found her relatable. HOW COOL.
So I just want to go ahead and say that I think this is really relevant to our disagreement about Belle and her feelings and actions. (And that this is totally okay and awesome and I’m happy to disagree with you on some things.) But I also agree with you about a lot.
First of all, I want to go ahead and say that I don’t think the show is painting the story of Belle/Rumple as an ideal romantic relationship. I mean, that’s really the whole driving point of the show, isn’t it? That fairy tales have their dark sides: true love doesn’t always work out, “happily ever after” may not last as long as one would hope, innocents suffer, and everyone’s journey is a difficult one. The only thing that makes FTL different than our world is the existence of those few, shining absolute concepts (true love’s kiss etc) that are usually tied to magic.
So back to Belle and her feelings. I think perhaps people may fall in to two camps of thought about this. If you think that she went with this stranger, got locked up, and eventually decided that there must be good in him somewhere despite evidence to the contrary- yes, that is extremely problematic. However, I think the other possibility is that her “sense about people” (or however she phrased it in Lacey) was “active” from the moment she laid eyes on Rumplestiltskin, and she chose to go with him because at no point did she believe she ever had anything to fear from him. If that’s the case, then it’s more the story of her initial impression of him persevering throughout their time together (and then eventually strengthening) and that’s a different series of events all together.
It wasn’t until recently that I had even thought about Belle and Hook’s interactions- so thank you to everyone in the forums here that brought that up. I’ll try not to repeat too much of what I’ve said elsewhere but maybe to tackle their interaction from a different direction. To be frank, we don’t know a lot about Hook. I mean, we know that he’s a pirate, he seemed to be relatively loved by his crew, and he did love Milah. Other than that- much of his character is a mystery. We have no idea what his actions in Neverland might have been and it’s really difficult to judge him the same way we judge Rumplestiltskin (of whom we have so much backstory). So it does really seem unfair for Belle to react to him with so much venom when she witnessed Rumplestiltskin do so much worse.
That is- unless we go ahead and assume that there is something to the whole “people sense” ability she has. (And I admit, this is dubious. Even Emma’s much toted “lie detector” skills seemed only so-so.) She didn’t have to get to know Hook because she was able to sense right away that at his core- he was evil. It’s got little to do with his actual actions- after all, someone can do good things but still have a dark heart. I imagine that in the next few episodes we’re going to see exactly what Hook is capable of.
I think it’s also worth stating that I think Belle has responded not to the Dark One side of Rumple, but to his old self. That’s the “good” that she sees in him. While Rumple as the Dark One was certainly a bad guy- I wonder (just for grins) what kind of villainy Hook would have gotten up to under the same curse. (And it’s important to remember that there *is* still a curse on Rumplestiltskin. It’s one that he chose, and one that he leans on, but it is a curse.) Even at his most powerful (say in the Robin Hood sequence of events) Rumple still had “standards” of behavior. Perhaps the “rotten core” that Belle remarked on in Hook means that without limits- he could have been a much worse villain.
This is all speculation of course, but it’s fun speculation.
Just to touch lightly on the female heroism thing-
I absolutely agree, there’s a lack of females fighting their foes with, err… I don’t know how to put this, so I’ll just say “traditionally male” methods (swords, punching, flame throwers, ninja skills…) but I also think that’s just not what B&B is *about*. I mean, it’s okay for there to be a story about having empathy and understanding. Those are tools as well, and it’s okay to embrace them. I honestly really liked the Magwai story because it showed two women using different strengths- Mulan as a traditional warrior, and Belle realizing she should just do what she was good at- understanding things and disecting puzzles.I didn’t mean to imply that all or even most fairy tales are about damsels in distress, I just meant that most of the ones that are heavily marketed are. If you asked 100 people off the street to name ten fairy tales, you’re going to get a lot more “Cinderella” and “Snow White” before you get “The Robber Bridegroom” or “Bremen’s Town Musicians”. In a lot of people’s minds fairy tales are equated with princesses. Admittedly, this has heaps to do with Disney. Disney fairy tales are the definitive version in so many people’s minds, just because that’s what they see the most of- but this is actually another reason I’m so glad OUAT is playing in that universe. It helps to develop so many characters (Snow White is a great example) but showing that they weren’t just princesses in far away towers.
But um, yep! Sorry for continuing to derail the thread.I’ll try to be good, I promise. ^_^;;
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
Hearing people bring up Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Beauty and the Beast is a pet peeve of mine as well. I guess it’s just people trying to be edgy while applying real world issues to fairy tale characters to make statements about feminism etc.
Belle/Beauty has long been a favorite character of mine and Beauty and the Beast has been one of my favorite stories for as long as I can remember, so it’s one of those things that I’ve picked apart time and time again. I think it’s so strange that this story is the one that comes under fire- when it’s one of the few where a girl is an active heroine. Most fairy tales (or at least most of the ones in common circulation) feature the female lead as a damsel in distress, and sure, I guess that’s problematic- but these stories are hundreds of years old and it’s not like the world was as forward thinking as we’d like to think ourselves. So why is it that Beauty (I’m just going to be generic about the fairy tale) gets some of the harshest criticism? I know a lot of critics would like to see young girls today engrossed in stories with active female heroes, but I think it’s a fallacy to think that the only way a female can be heroic is to pick up a sword and go fight a monster. Beauty wins the day not by fighting, but by learning and wielding empathy. It may be a bit much to say that these are tools commonly associated with the female gender, but I think they are tools that are more accessible to anyone than enchanted weaponry or magic. 🙂 To be honest, these are skills that children of either gender could stand to learn.
Sure, other princesses have been critiqued, Snow White gets it for being either a maid or asleep during her story and the Little Mermaid is faulted for giving up her life for a man, but Beauty seems to get more than her fair share of hate.
Back to Lacey- yes, I have to agree about the scene with Keith. I think the whole episode played a lot darker than Emilie hinted it would, perhaps just because of small details. Did they really have to be making out by a *dumpster*? Did she really have to look so impressed when Gold *returned* to beating the heck out of Keith? The episode went from being awkwardly adorable (“I need dating advice!” “I’m so nervous I spilled the tea!”) to being downright scary. I’m hoping Gold has a “What have I done” moment sooner rather than later. Maybe he’ll be with Lacey for a bit before realizing he doesn’t feel the same way he did with Belle.
If I can draw from personal experience, I’d say that the feeling that I was reading in Rumple’s interactions with Belle were quite complex, but there was a definite amount of uneasiness with her. I don’t mean that she made him feel badly, but she was always making him question things, especially himself. Carlyle does an AMAZING job at pouring emotion into the briefest of glances at Belle. Sometimes it seems as though he can’t believe what he’s hearing. Other times it’s a question of what’s going to happen next. And at other times, it’s the sort of look you give a loved one when you realize you’ve made yourself vulnerable to them- and entrusted them not to hurt you, but you’re still in the fearful stage that something might go wrong. Gold has none of that with Lacey. Lacey is too easy (and I don’t mean that in the slang sense). She doesn’t challenge him, she simply enables him. That uneasiness and questioning aspect of the relationship is missing, and I think Gold will come to realize that soon enough.
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
I’m definitely a big Harry Potter fan.
I haven’t read Tsubasa, although I was in to CLAMP back in highschool- but I guess that’s now become the “old school” era. Haha, I guess a lot of those characters were recycled in to Tsubasa, right?
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
Perhaps the way it will work out is that Gold will realize that Belle helped him to walk towards goodness and that Lacey will help him do so- but in a different way because wheras he had to walk with Belle to get there, he’ll have to walk away from Lacey. I can easily imagine a heartfelt “You ended up helping me find myself after all” goodbye to Lacey just before we get Belle back. 🙂
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
I was thinking a bit about some discussion that took place in the “least favorite character” thread when the conversation turned to the classic criticisms of Beauty and the Beast- the whole ‘Stockholm Syndrome” problem etc. I started wondering why Belle is an exception to that criticism (at least in this incarnation).
For the sake of accuracy I went ahead and looked up Stockholm Syndrome – wiki tells me it’s ” a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.”
Also: Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.”[4] One commonly used hypothesis to explain the effect of Stockholm syndrome is based on Freudian theory. It suggests that the bonding is the individual’s response to trauma in becoming a victim. Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they no longer become a threat.[5]
I don’t think this describes the relationship between Belle and Rumple (or Beast in any incarnation) at all, to be honest. While she does grow to empathize with him- it’s actually his actions that don’t match up with SS. (I’m going to go ahead and keep this to Rumbelle for now.) He is really not cruel to her, and does nothing to abuse her. Yes- he does throw her in a dungeon, but that is quickly remedied and the rest of his actions are either fairly neutral or actually kind. At no point does Belle take Rumple’s lack of abuse to be kindness, she responds to his actual kind deeds.
That brings us to the second part of the definition. Belle, while sympathetic towards Rumple- never tries to put herself on his level. Rather, she works to bring him to hers. She thinks he should see things her way, not the reverse. More importantly, when he rejects that she leaves. Twice. Both from his castle and from his home. When she sees that he is unwilling to make the necessary changes she goes. She’s not happy about it, and she is sorry that she has to, but she leaves. It stands to reason that if she’d insisted on staying in the castle back in FTL, Rumple would have let her. Things may have been icy for a while, but he would never have harmed her and a large part of him didn’t want her to go. This is why his interest is piqued when Regina tells him the ‘tragic tale’ and for a moment he believes Belle may be in need of a place to stay. At that moment, he would have eagerly welcomed her back.
A similar series of events happens back in Storybrooke. Belle (sadly) leaves Gold when it becomes apparent that he hasn’t changed as much as he’d like her to believe. Whether she believes her departure will act as motivation for him to change is unclear, but the fact remains that she didn’t stay captive despite her feelings.
I would also say that as threats go- Belle had a very different view of Rumplestiltskin from the get-go. She definitely understood his power, but at no time do we ever get the slightest hint that she’s afraid of him. In fact, during the flashbacks of “Lacey” she tells Robin Hood so. So if Belle isn’t afraid of the beast, there’s no reason for her to develop a coping mechanism to defend herself against him, and since she never developed one, she didn’t end up falling back on it when things went badly. This is what gave her the freedom to make the choice to leave in both cases.
I think this is interesting because the show is very much about parallels and comparisons. I think the way events are unfolding now, Lacey herself is the new beast in the pair. The question is- will Gold be able to walk away as Belle did? I really think that while there is a certain desperation that drew Gold to Lacey, he is soon going to realize that she isn’t the girl for him and that he doesn’t love her. That’s going to be a hard realization, but when it comes- I think he’ll be the one to walk away.
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
Can I be the keeper of Rumple’s stolen wand? 🙂
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
