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I don’t even think anything even went as far as the planning phase- but I think the creator would have liked to continue the story. The series (and I think the novelization) both end with an open ended “And that is the end of the first book of the Tenth Kingdom” which definitely hints at the hope for more story, even though nothing ever came of it. I’m sort of curious where the story would have gone. I think Virginia also narrates that they were brought back almost instantly to the 9 Kingdoms for one reason or another; since things were so neatly wrapped up in the miniseries, it’s curious what the next big dramatic event would have been.
[adrotate group="5"]"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@Keb wrote:
He doesn’t really have his son back, though. Yeah, Bae wouldn’t let him die and wouldn’t let him die alone, but he’s still angry. There’s no reason to believe that they’ve spoken since Gold recovered. So while Bae might be a reason to be on his best behavior, as Regina points out, he’s not an inspiration the way Belle is. And when he’s that crushed–he’s in exactly the same place Regina was, with Regina being Cora and telling him that the Charmings won’t accept him, and then smashing that last sliver of hope he was clinging to by taking away the one person he had left to love him–completely.
I think the main difference is that Bae still needs proof that his father can be a good person. Belle already believes he is. Sometimes you need someone to believe that you already are what you’re trying to be in order to jump start the process. 🙂
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
Hello! I’m new here as well but I’m having a good time. 😀 Happy to meet anime anime fan!
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@obisgirl wrote:
@thelonebamf wrote:
@ Obisgirl- Thanks. ^_^;; I promise I will work on being more concise in the future. I just feel so many ways about stuff! I think you’re right about what each episode means in regards to the characters.
.
You write your arguments so well, honestly, I don’t mind reading what you write. Normally, I don’t like reading lengthy posts, but your stuff, it doesn’t bother me.
Well color me embarrassed. With any luck I hope to use my powers for good and maybe turn my hand to some fic in the near future. ^_^7
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@RumplesGirl wrote:
I also enjoy Doctor Who although I am woefully behind on the new series (I still haven’t finished watching Tennant’s run because I can’t bear to say goodbye… something about those Scottish boys…)
Your heart will smash into a thousand and one pieces and you’ll cry for months. It will feel like there will never be anything good in this world ever again.
Its been 3 years and it still hurts. I actually had to stop watching for the first few episodes of the 11th Doctor and I’ve been a crazed Whovian for a looooong time.
It’s like…. you GET me. XD
Lol, I have absolutely nothing against 11. One of my buddies really likes him tons and tons, and I’m definitely not the sort of person who has ever felt like “Oh, I can’t believe you like THAT Doctor, he’s weird/not funny/annoying/lumpy/etc.” I also know that there’s supposed to be tons of great episodes in the new seasons I just… y’know… have a hard time saying goodbye. I watched through the end of 10’s last season and just haven’t gotten around to the specials. I get very attached to characters- I’m the sort of person that will sit through a show or read a book series that I’m not that in to just to see the sparkling moments of my favorite characters. When they leave a show, it’s a real wrench for me…
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@ Keb- ah, you are so right. I hadn’t even really thought about what the fallout would be if he’d killed Robin straight away only to realize Marion was pregnant with their child. I think you are absolutely right about the library being much more of a thank you gift than any sort of attempt at wooing Belle. You’re absolutely right about the self loathing aspect as well, and that becomes very apparent with the events of ‘Skin Deep’. (I sort of want to edit all the flashback scenes in chronological order now…)
@ Obisgirl- Thanks. ^_^;; I promise I will work on being more concise in the future. I just feel so many ways about stuff! I think you’re right about what each episode means in regards to the characters. I think the events seen in the past during “Lacey” didn’t just teach Belle that there was something more within Rumple, but I think it taught him as well. We’re definitely fuzzy on the amount of time that has passed between his becoming the Dark One and his bringing Belle to his castle, but I think it is safe to say that enough time has passed that it’s very likely Rumple himself didn’t realize he was capable of having feelings like the ones Belle insisted he did. After all, in ‘Skin Deep’ he goes so far as to say “I’m not a man”. I think for a very long time before meeting Belle, he believed that to be true. After the events with Robin Hood, I think he decided to open up a bit to Belle, because it was the first time he realized he was still capable of doing so. He wasn’t just testing her, he was testing himself.
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
I think I tend to marathon a show that’s already completed rather than watch something from week to week. That’s sort of how I ended up getting in to OUAT- by watching all of season one in a few days, then devouring season 2 up to this point- and now I’m waiting for new episodes wondering how people do it week to week!
But shows I’m a big fan of include:
Community
Adventure Time (and how)
Arrested Development (I am crazy about this show, I’ve watched it beginning to end at least 5 times- glad to see some other fans here on the forums!)
And recently finished watching ST:DS9 from beginning to end because I’d had spotty coverage of the series.
I also enjoy Doctor Who although I am woefully behind on the new series (I still haven’t finished watching Tennant’s run because I can’t bear to say goodbye… something about those Scottish boys…)
And more, I’m sure…"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
I’m right there with you Rumplesgirl, Beauty and the Beast was my favorite fairy tale as a child, and I was near the same age when the Disney film came out. Actually, as a kid I sought out pretty much every printed version of the story I could get my little hands on at the library because I liked to see the different versions of the tale (as well as see the different interpretations of the ‘beast’). Really, in the book version of the story the Beast isn’t a bad guy at all. The story is very much a “don’t judge a book by its cover” tale because he is never anything but kind to Beauty. (Well, admittedly he does take her away with him, but she does volunteer when her sisters refuse and that sort of bargain seems par for the course in fairy tales.)
Obviously OUAT is using Disney as a starting point for its stories- and when the Disney BatB movie was being written I guess they couldn’t have some innocent prince be punished for nothing- so they made him a brat. And that’s really all he is- a spoiled brat, not really evil. But he’s not the only one that needs redemption! Belle herself isn’t all that great at the start of the movie. She is distant from those around her and sees herself apart (better perhaps) than the rest of them. True, she lives in a town where an intelligent girl is seen as an oddity, but we have no indication that Belle has ever made the slightest attempt to actually connect with any of the townspeople. She has already judged them as mundane and wants nothing more than to get away. When she opts to go with the Beast, it has nothing to do with seeing goodness within him, it is to save her father- which is admirable, but she has already made her judgement about the Beast. He’s a monster. End of story. (This is why she reacts in such a surprised way when he does her the kindness of giving her a room etc.) So really, the story is a two way street. The Beast has to learn to be kind, and Belle has to learn to see that there is more to people beyond the surface, as she wasn’t just innately gifted with that ability.
I bring all this up because of the whole pillow/life saving debate. Maybe it seems unfair that the two versions of the relationship should have such different starting points. First of all, there are some pretty basic physical things to consider. Rumple- while sort of greenish and scaly is still very much human looking. The Beast- while cuddly and endearing, is more of a… “traditional” beast. It’s natural to empathize more with another person (and to see them as a romantic interest) if… you know, they look like a human being. I realize that’s really pragmatic of me to say- but… there. I said it. (And don’t get me wrong, I’ve always preferred the Beast version to Prince Adam as do most of that fans, haha…)
So on one hand, we have Belle of OUAT who is good at seeing what’s inside a person, and she’s looking at someone who looks much more like a person- so the whole pillow thing isn’t the start of the romance, but the start of their relationship as two people. All it did was show her that Rumple wasn’t devoid of empathy and that he is a person who could be reasoned with to some degree. This all happens in an instant! She doesn’t even get a chance to use her pillow before the Robin Hood events unfold, and that is a very fast track down character development lane. She ends up giving Rumple a hug by the end of it, but it’s friendly and nothing more- although it probably did encourage him to “test the waters” with the library. Still, at this point I don’t think either were looking for romance.
Animated Belle, on the other hand isn’t as good at “reading people” as her live action counterpart. She is also dealing with a larger physical/visual hurdle with her beast. If you remember at the beginning of the movie, she also says “I don’t want to get to know him”- she’s already shut herself off from even thinking about the Beast as a person. She’s standing at a very different place, so it makes logical sense that it was going to take a much bigger thing to get her to perceive the Beast as anything other than a monster. It’s not that he needed to make a bigger gesture to make himself look good- it’s that she needed something more to get her to be *willing* to see.
Regarding the Gold/Hook debate. It does seem cruel for Belle to have said that Hook is “rotten to the core”, but let’s just assume that Belle’s “sense about people” is accurate. Why would she say something like that and yet seem forgiving of Gold/Rumple’s actions when they seem so much worse? Well, we only know so much about Hook’s motivations. We do know that he and Milah were each other’s true loves, and that he is motivated by revenge to kill Gold. All of his actions since Milah’s death have been about seeking revenge. By the show’s moral code- revenge for whatever reason is never good. (And at this point, it’s definitely about revenge and hate- not about lost love.) Even helping Emma and Snow to get back to Storybrooke was all about finding his way to Gold so he could get his vengeance.
Rumplestiltskin, on the other had is sort of the opposite. He’s done a lot of terrible, manipulative things. I mean a lot. From grooming Regina into the Evil Queen to creating the curse to making sure it was enacted- he has a long list of crimes. But as we all know, he’s only ever had one thing on his mind- reuniting with Baelfire. Even taking on the powers of the Dark One was his way of protecting his son. Now, yes- he has clearly faltered on that path (like breaking the deal with his son) and there have been plenty of deals struck and magic cast that had little or nothing to do with his quest, but misguided as his actions have been- at his core, it was for a good reason.
Obviously, the viewer is free to decide whether they agree with that assessment, and I think it’s a strong point of the show that characters like Gold are as complex and inviting of debate. It wouldn’t be any fun otherwise. But I think it’s safe to say that this is the judgement that Belle is making. It’s a very “Did the right thing for the wrong reasons” (Hook) or “Did the wrong thing for the right reasons” (Gold) sort of judgement. You may not agree with her, and that’s fine- but I do think that the series will end up taking her point of view.
Then again, maybe Hook will just surprise everyone and be awesome and they’ll all have cake and frozen lasagna. 🙂
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
@daybreak_fairy wrote:
Welcome to the forums Cat! This is a great place to be, the people are very nice & there’s always something interesting to talk about. I haven’t read Fable but I’ve heard that it’s interesting. Right now I’m reading The Wheel of Time books & the Fairy Tail manga. I also like to do plastic canvas. Again, welcome 🙂
Thanks! I’m glad to meet another manga fan. Current series I’m collecting include “Afterschool Charisma”, “Black Bird” (totally a guilty pleasure), “Vampire Hunter D”, and “Soulless”, but I have a modest collection of manga I’ve collected over the years as well. Lately I’ve also been reading the new translations (and old scanlations) of Sailor Moon because I’m stoked for the new series this summer. 🙂
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
If I may dig a little deeper, I like the idea that the curse doesn’t make inverse versions of people, but ‘worst’ versions. Remember, Regina created the town, and created all the characters and lives that her enemies would be living in. The Storybrooke personas are all of the FTL inhabitants seen through her eyes as petty, meaningless little people.
If you think about the way that Regina viewed other characters, I think this makes a lot of sense. Take Snow, for example- Regina thought that Snow’s dedication to goodness was beyond foolish. So Mary Margaret is almost an over-the-top living saint whose life is made up of volunteer hours etc. But Mary Margaret is also very concerned about how others view her. When the town turned against her for the affair, she was unable to stick up for herself, instead crumbling under the weight of their criticism. Perhaps this is because Regina viewed Snow’s desire for goodness to be nothing more than a manipulative way to get people to like and follow her. Mary Margaret could be said to have that within her, but without the inner strength that Snow had in FTL.
The same logic may be applied to other people in the town. The dwarves? Working stiffs. Cinderella, psh- she was just a maid who got a lucky break. Granny of FTL was just a crotchety woman as far as Regina was concerned, and that’s how she exists in Storybrooke. Even Gold, while still afforded “comfort” in his new life was reimagined as an unliked, secluded man who wields power, but is unloved by those around him.
So this brings us back to Belle/Lacey. While I think that the Lacey persona was tailor-made to keep Gold from embracing any goodness within him (at the beginning of episode 19, Regina flat out states that Gold would always choose darkness- I think Lacey is just her insurance policy) I think there’s a bit more to explore in the character with the “worst version” theory- or perhaps we should call it “Regin-a-vision” XD.
Regina knew about the relationship between Gold and Belle in the past. Obviously she wasn’t privy to the details, so she would likely have to come up with her own version of events. (I suppose she must have known some things by way of the mirror that Rumple shouts at at the end of ‘Skin Deep’, but she couldn’t have known everything.) She knows that Belle cared for him enough to try to free him from his curse, and she manipulated Belle using that information. From where Regina stood at that point in time, power was far more important than love- so one can only begin to imagine what she thought of Belle and her potential relationship with Rumple. After all, what kind of girl would be attracted to the Dark One?
The fairy tale version of Beauty and the Beast often receives a lot of criticism because the heroine falls in love with her captor. (Regina even jokes about this- asking what kind of message this sends.) While I believe that Belle’s intentions were always pure, it would be easy for someone like Regina to think that Belle was simply a foolish girl falling for the “bad boy”, as it were. Belle makes the comment to Rumple that she could see the good in him from the start; their relationship in the past is more or less a series of events where either she uncovers some of that, or he reveals it himself. Lo and behold it turns out she was right- and perhaps what makes Belle special is that her sense about people is in fact accurate (or at least as accurate as Emma’s lie detector ability).
However, without that knowledge, Regina likely views the events from a much different perspective. Girl meets bad boy. Girl falls in love with said bad boy. Girl is determined to make him change. ….Things get messy (and then if this was an 80’s movie they’d reunite just in time for prom.) She just created Lacey with the first two bits in mind- the way that she likely viewed Belle when she met her. Even though Regina knows that Belle wanted to bring out the goodness in Rumple, that’s not in Regina’s interests, so she removed it. So what kind of girl likes a bad boy but doesn’t want him to change? Lacey.
…sorry for the mini-essay. ^_^;;
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer; nothing is more difficult than to understand him."
