[thetrickster]

I don’t know what it could be, but I think they saw each other. And that probably there is the clue to communicate between worlds.

[thetrickster]

Our world doesn’t give lot of oportunities in that respect: there had been -and still are- situations similar to the one you describe. But one thing is what the nobility thinks in that respect and a different one the opinion of the peasantry. During our Middle Ages, commons could afford tithes, poverty, famine… but when coming across the levies and the droit de seigneur, then problems started: a desert was an hero, the one who could avoid his destiny. He was usually prosecuted -desertion was a crime, of course- and people helped him as the most honorable man. Lot of heroic stories and tales about the outlaws start with the desertion of the main character from an unfair war. Even from the Crusades, and deserting from the Crusades meant loose your soul without redemption.
I know, it is a fantastic world, and people wanted to fight for their king. But… People in that village were not recluited, they weren’t asked. If people understood fighting and dying for their king the most honorable thing… why were levies neccesary? There are all those little details what surprise me.

Don’t say his son that his mother was abducted to became the sexual toy of a crew “in need of companionship” -that was what he seemed to think- maybe was not the bravest thing ever, but I think it could be considered a white lie.

Deserting Baelfire makes him a coward, I agree. But I was thinking about the spinner, before the Dark One ^^

[thetrickster]

I’m quite confused regarding Rumpelstiltskin’s cowardice.

I mean, as far as we know, he was a coward because he deserted from the Ogre War. All the attitudes he has that can be considered as the attitude of a coward are showed after the war. And even then, I can’t see the cowardice in them: he goes to Hook’s ship concerned about his wife -ok, he didn’t fight, but who would do so? courage and imprudence are really close terms-, he don’t doubt a lot about go to steal the dagger of the Dark One, -ok, he was afraid of using it but he don’t doubt in killing the Dark One-.

And then, he was cursed. His only coward act was leave Baelfire go. A really big mistake, but he was called coward much earlier than that.

So, my point is; yes, the after-curse Rumpelstiltskin/Mr.Gold is a twisted character, manipulative, dark, responsible of lots of unforgivable actions, and [insert adjetive here]. Having the power of the Dark One, he found himself with power to stop the evil around him, blablabla, but he was cursed, and the path to his fall started in the very moment in which he got the power. The power of the Dark One consumes him, changes him from being a lovely father to become a twisted trickster, the way in which that cursed personality is in conflict with his previous one -and it is, if not, he would never love, he would never continue the search of his son-… that is what makes him a Byronic Hero.

But what makes me feel confused is the idea of Rumpelstiltskin -the spinner- being a coward just because he ran away from the battlefield.
King Fredierick the Great wrote in his Military Testament -back in 1768- that “All that can be done with the soldier is to give him esprit de corps…and since the officers have sometimes to lead him into the greatest dangers (and he cannot be influenced by a sense of honor), he must be more afraid of his officers than of the dangers to which he is exposed.”

The spinner was certainly afraid of his officers -he even humiliated himself by kissing an officer’s boot- but as the officers didn’t kill him because of his desertion, not enough. Or yes, and then by running away he proved himself braver than what people thought afterwards.
Apart from this, he was influenced by a sense of honor, which can be noticed in Desperate Souls, when he pronounced a speech against Children Levy, and described the battlefield as the horrible place it is; the sacrifice of pleasants and children.
I remember something like “The sky is red with the blood of our people, with the blood of children…” Come on, these do not sound like a coward’s words, revolutions had been made with weaker rousing speechs.

Maybe it is just me, but I can’t understand why human Rumpelstiltskin was a coward ❓

[thetrickster]

I agree, that sentece has a deep meaning. Hook is a man of the world, he knows how Fairytale Land really works. Although I find him a bit affected.

PS. oh, the little mermaid!i think Andersen was more a sort of romantic-gothic writer than anything else. You make me remember the tale “the elf of the rose”, which is like the fantasy-type tale of Poe’s “the tell-tale heart”. But that is a different topic.

[thetrickster]

Mmmm… Maybe it is just a way to show that they are both more or less in the same bussiness:

Hook is a pirate -traveler of the seas, not exactly honest, blablabla- and Jefferson, the traveler between worlds, also amoral, blablabla. Hook has his ship -there is a special relationship between a capitain and his ship- Jefferson his hat -the passaport Jefferson asked Regina for remembered me to the letters of marque-.

Both know Rumplestiltskin, but while one wants to kill him, the other seems to be his friend (by the way, we don’t know if Jefferson ended in good terms with Rumplestiltskin or not. It is curious how he hates Regina, releases Belle… but have no relationship with mr. Gold, not even a single conversation during the whole series in modern times. Jefferson knows about mr. Gold, and I’m sure mr Gold knows about Jefferson.So… maybe there is the answer)

Besides, I always thought that the way Jefferson wears is similiar to a cyberpunk character, while Hook’s style is more “historical” -as much as it could be in a show like this-.
But you are right, they look quite similar.

[thetrickster]

I think Mulan is just the boring paladin of good. You know, honorable, trustful, defending the weak, saying the truth, a bit impulsive to “give justice”… but not evil or twisted.
We find her a bit weird because she is so good… and we are used to characters with a personality with shadows, secrets, etc… In my opinion, Hook had infiltrated among people as a blacksmith and all what Mulan did was say what she knew about him. And if she does something that could be dangerous for someone’s integrity, it will be probably because she thought those persons were not playing totally fair.
The boring paladin of good. 😆

[thetrickster]

Agree with you, RumplesGirl. ^^ “those spells that have consequences almost written into them”, love this sentence :ugeek:

But when someone looses his arm, that arm is dead. Re attach it should be, as far as i understand it, one of the big spells, since you make a dead limb useful again.
Internal consequences would be also ok with me. If Whale has nightmares afterwards, or becomes a big fan of magic against his own nature, with all the internal conflicts it comes with, or whatever, it would be at least something else than “It was done by a magician”.
Not as funny as having a crazy Whale changing his personality, but fair enough. 😈
Sadly, it seems improbable.

And, regarding Crest1994 comment… personally, if I tell someone “you are not my prince” it has the implication of having my own prince. Mainly because it is a negative existential sentence. That means, by saying… “you are not my brother” to a person who claims being my brother, the implication that the hearer percieves is that I have a brother but he is not the person i’m talking with. Because if i had no brother, i would probably answer something like “What brother?” “I have no brother”…etc.
I’m not English native speaker, so I’m just following the rule. 😳 But even if i’m wrong in my guess, at least it seems quite ambiguous.

[thetrickster]

@TheGoldenKey wrote:

Gypsy is right Trickster, Victor/Whale’s price is having to concede to magic. Man of science hates to concede to man of faith.

That was a price he paid to the wizard to get his arm back. I was thinking about the consecuences of having an arm attached by means of magic.
Actually it will be a bit disapointing if nothing happens after that. I mean, if that sort of magic comes without more consecuences than a pride damage, then magic doesn’t come with a price… Rumplestiltskin does. I also remember him telling Regina that the magic in the book was not good for health… and re attach a dead arm is not bad?
As I said before, I’m most than probably wrong. But leave Whale with his arm again without problems of any kind is a bit simple. At least in my opinion. but Again I’m most than probably wrong.

[thetrickster]

I thought that white unicorns were symbol of purity and innocence -actually, according to the legend, (as far as i remember) only virgin maidens could touch them- and that the black ones were their twisted version, mainly symbol of sensuality and magic. More or less the same that regarding swans: the white ones are supposed to be symbol of innocence and the black ones symbol of magic and depravation.
Although the symbolism I remember is strongly related to sexuality and that is an element which is not present in the series, so… maybe it’s just a way to show how powerful he is and how powerful she is starting to be, since whatever the colour or the interpretation, what a unicorn means is a very powerful magical animal.

[thetrickster]

It could be nice if it is Dracula. I would really like to watch a sort of “victorian-gothic” world in which all the characters of the horror movies- gothic books live. And those “black and white” scenes make me remember the old films by Hammer Productions XDD

But… I don’t know, Dracula was not a prince. He was not even nobleman. He was a voivoda, which is a military range –sort of general- who ruled a province in old Valaquia (where Transilvania is, in Rumania, but in the Medieval Ages, under the Ottoman Empire.That is why Vlad Tepes became a legend: he fought the Turkish with such a blood thirst that people began to think that he even drank blood of his enemies) I know that he is also a gothic character, and that not only Fairy Tales have place in the show but… historical characters? Maybe too much? Or maybe not…

You know, Frankenstein was written in the 19th century and so was Dracula… there are lots of legends about Queen Victoria and her sons… it is said that she was into “strange” business, related with magic and experimental science since her husband died. It is also said that she was related in some way with Jack the Reaper –and one of the first suspects was an American actor who played the role of Jekyll-Hide in the theatres of London at the time of the murderers (Richard Mansfield)-

And the Dr. Whale/Frankenstein from OUaT could also be a Mr. Hide-Jack the Reaper. Both Hide and Jack were womanizers –as Dr. Whale is but not Victor Frankenstein- and finally no one knows why, they started to kill women. Dr. Jekyll changed because a potion he drank… well, Dr. Whale had his arm stuck again because of the magic. And all magic comes with a price, so… what about a doctor loyal to a certain gothic Prince Albert (¿? put here the name of other candidates… all of them from England in the Victorian Age, when the original gothic stories took place) from his world who after make use of magic has to paid the price of it by becoming a murderer without knowing it? Being the victims women who rejected –or not- him?

Anyway I hope I’m wrong. I would like to see Dracula as the king-prince of that land… he could make “the evil queen” look like Teresa de Calcuta. 😈

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