[TheWatcher]

So you’re taking a S4A quote as canon and ignoring what happened on the show and with that relationship in 4B,5, and 6. Interesting. Definitely makes sense

ignore what?  Henry’s true feelings were that he wasnt fond of Hook. That is canon. He literally said it. While I agree with others that despite personal feelings, a lot of the characters have to tolerate Hook for the sake that he is with Emma and she loves him, including Henry, thats just my view. Henry may like hook more than he did before. They’ve had scenes and dialog. But henrys true feelings was that he did not like hook and liked him even less with his mother. He was magically forced to say it.

You said A&E said that henrys words were untrue and thats not really how he felt. My question is why retcon the point of the shattered mirror curse? Were some people unable to handle that someone could not like Hook? .

Anyway, Michael you havent answered my question from pages ago. Dont u think Hook coukd have a storyline outside of CS? Im not talking about scenes with other people where they tell him they like him and forgive him and all that. Im talking an actual story like all the other major characters? Or should he just float around Emma all the time? Do you think thats enough to keep the audience invested in him?

[TheWatcher]

Without Snow, you’re seeing him starting to give into darker impulses

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

They hold Hook to incredibly high standards knowing that he won’t meet them just so they can continue to bash and hate on him.

But…What high standards is he and only he being held to? Is Rumpel not hurting the people he cares about? Is Rumpel not super Dark One? Are we making excuses for him? No? Then why for Hook? We always call characters out on their crap no matter who they are. And thats also a bit weird since you were demonizing Regina for blaming her evil deeds on the EQ. Its not a double standard. Im judging them all the same.

But yes. I think we all should agree to disagree. Conversely, it seems you have incredibly low standards and expect very little from Hook to be pleased with him. Im not holding him to any higher standards than anyone else. I think he’s boring, not progressing the story, and is being used as nothing more than to be Emma’s love interest which you both have said as well. That is a huge downgrade to his character that is only enjoyed by people content with seeing them together. I think Hook needs to be doing something awesome instead of being emma’s support group all the time. Thats basically it from me. It has nothing to do with a ship even though i dont ship them. It is all aboutbhis character and how they seem to be doing the least with him.

The problem i think here is that the majority of hook fans are primarily CS fans and thus dont see it from the same persepective as someone who liked Hook but sees past the ship and wants to see more than that from him.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

EDIT to shorten: The darkness didn’t brainwash him, it didn’t force him to do any of that. His own feelings and emotions did. Hook is still responsible for his actions. He was so angry at Emma he was willing and had the power to send her to hell for she did. Being the dark one doesn’t take away his accountability any more than it should from Rumpel and all the crap he’s putting everyone through since he’s still the dark one.

I agree that the darkness definitely brought out some of the darker parts of him, but still. That’s just another excuse to make Hook seem infallible.

Hook goes back to being a pirate and abandons Emma’s family —> Its okay because he didn’t sleep with a prostitute. Henry is curse to reveal his true feelings and says he doesn’t like hook —-> no, that’s not how Henry really feels, he actually does like Hook. Hook becomes a complete prick to Will when he believes Rump cursed his hand to act out on its own and it turns out he really didn’t and it was all Hook all along —> Yeah, well, its the placebo effect, you can’t blame him. Hook tries to send everyone to hell —> Nah, it was just the darkness….

Is there any thing negative that can be said about Hook? Or is he just always good? And if he’s always presented as being good and infallible ,why is it wrong to say that makes him boring?

With Rgina and Rumpel, we can easily have discussions when they do some questionable, shady things, but when Hook does something its like its impossible to have a discussion about it. There seems to be very little middle ground. Most fans either really love him, or really hate him.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

I think that’s fair. One question though. How exactly did they turn the dark swan/dark Hook plotline into CS centric?

When I say CS centric, I mean specifically about their romantic relationship. The way it was setup to us was entirely different from what it ended up being. So the writers setup that Emma has taken in darkness incarnate, becomes an evil dark one, the very anti-thesis to herself, and at the end of the first episode it sets up that something horrific happened causing everyone to lose their memories and emma to embrace the evil and darkness…..and then we find out that’s not true. Emma was never evil at all. She was just pretending because she…didn’t want Hook to find out that she saved his life by turning him into a dark one and that this was all a ruse for him so that she could save him…without him knowing…despite that if he were a dark one, he would have to have seen the appartions of other dark ones…and not be able to sleep…and hear the call of the dagger but…..what? That arc was really not well written now that I recall it.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m actually perfectly fine with Hook’s half of that. Him becoming the dark one was awesome, very enjoyable for me and clearly Colin was having a  great time. But the entire thing just seemed so contrived, as if its something they came up with last minute. I don’t think it was even setup at all… With this arc they had so much potential if Emma had actually genuinely been evil, just as Hook was genuinely evil and willing to kill everyone as the Dark One, but they just watered it down to another love struggle story for them. I was not here for it. It could have gone so many places.

But my point is I don’t blame him for anything he did as the DO. That wasn’t him. The darkness took over him. But again, that is up for interpretation,

But that’s the thing, Emma didn’t become truly evil as the dark one. Hook did. Emma was able to fight  for what she saw as a noble cause even with the darkness. Even Rumpel, who was significantly more evil than Hook ever was, was able to do that too at points. But once Hook found out what she had done, he was prepared to literally send her and her entire family to hell because he was angry at her. If Emma had enough of herself within her to know what she was doing,  Hook did as well. It’s like when Hook believed Rumpel had cursed his hand, or when they went back to the EF, who he really was came out and yet we try to throw the blame off him for whatever reason as if its impossible that Hook can be an unsavory guy. Regina can be pretty unsavory, Rumpel damn sure can, yet when it comes to Hook, people act like calling him out is some insane thing.

But it seems you give other characters a pass (like Regina’s old self and how she used to be, or Rumple).

But we don’t give them a past. Especially Rumpel, where i’m pretty sure everyone here sees him as a villain and wants Belle to get as far away from him. Regina gets no pass either, Regina is always actively working against her darkness. I don’t see Hook’s redemption as being him working hard towards it. He just decided he was a hero at some point and now everything after that gets thrown under the rug when it comes to him. But again, this seems to be something we all see differently.

If other characters can be redeemed, why can’t Hook?

He can be. I can accept Hook as a hero (I think he and Regina and Rumpel should all be Anti-heroes, the grey area in between. Not evil but not as goodie goodie as all the others because that make them more interesting.) The thing is that when he does do something Hook fans, and the writers, expect us to not care because he’s Hook. There are excuses for everything negative about Hook.

Even Henry telling Hook that he genuinely doesn’t care for him, according to Michael, is false because the writers said so. I don’t buy that. I’m sure that was exactly how Henry felt deep down inside.

But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hook must be held in high regard by all.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

If Regina didn’t cast the curse, then theoretically any character who died in Storybrooke isn’t dead. So Graham, Pan, Felix, Johanna, and Ingrid are all still alive.

Quote

the ultimate reunion episode!

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

Hook, being her boyfriend, is going to play the boyfriend part a lot.

i get that. My issue is that his character doesn’t extend far beyond that.  When he does its always shortlived or makes it way to being about romance and emma. I disliked the dark Swan arc near the end for this reason. They took an amazing plotline (emma becoming evil, Hook becoming a dark one, the very thing he hates) and made it into CS centered plot. Snowing often has this issue as well where they do the majority of things in stories that center around their relationship. But Snowing still has many more connections to other other characters outside of each other and have for many seasons.

I know Hook and Emma being together means we will see them alot. That isnt my issue with him as a character. I want Hook to be more than that. Hook can still be the awesome guy he was when he was first introduced.

To give an example: Let Hook find out his ship was actually cursed by Ursula and now Davy Jones will come to claim his soul. And he has to do something about that. Let Hook find out that not being in Neverland anymore will cause him to age rapidly and die, and he has to get Rumpel to help him despite them hating eachother. I mean, these all sound stupid, but they can make it work. Let Hook do something. Emma can be there for support, sure, but let the dude have a goal again!

#MakeHookGreatAgain xD

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

think it’s fair to say you enjoyed Hook more as a villain and find his nice redeeming self to be, well less interesting and more on the boring side, right?  And with Regina, you found both her evil side and her nice side to be interesting?

Yes. But not so much just because he was villain but because he was interesting to watch doing all his villainous things. Hes not fun anymore. He just seems very forced, like a lot of things on this show, even Regina has her forces moments. I think the writers enjoy the villains moreso than the heroes.

Thanks for proving to me that you’re clearly still bitter about what happened to Neal and SF even though it was literally 3 years ago.

No, im just pointing out that if that is your reasoning foe why Hook is great it can be applied elsewhere.

Once again, u ignored all my points about the charactwr to focus on the ship comment. Im not bitter Neal is dead. Im just unimpressed with Hook.

I wouldn’t say he went back to being a pirate considering the fact that he had no ship. He was just desperate for some sense of familiarity after losing Emma and thinking that would be it. He stayed true to his word though and even when his crew offered him company he denied it because he was in love

So….Emmaa fanily and friends that he had been helping for so long suddenly meant nothing to him once she was gone but its okay because he refused to sleep with a random woman……. Hmm? Hook didnt have a ship at that point? Didnt he escape the curse and trade the ship and then attempt to kill blackbeard to get it back? And even then how does that negate that he left Emmas fanily behind to go back to his old ways.

Hook and Regina are both divisive characters,

Im not saying they arent. Im saying Hook has split the fandom moreso than Regina has. Even here on the forums the constant bickering over Hook has caused a lot of Hook fans to leave. Its not a contest.

His only intentions were reuniting her with her family and stopping the new threat.

Well…i mean how he did it isnt the point. Hook SHOULD be willing to trade his home for love. I know a lot of Hook fans blow that up but he did what a decent person should do in that situation.

But once again, im waitinf for my questions to be addressed and all you’ve done os prove them. Hook exists to be Emma’s man. And a lot of u are okay with that. Dont u think he could be more like he once was?

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

And sorry to say this but Hook’s role on this show is not to be Emma’s boyfriend. It’s to be her true love and kindred spirit. He’s not simply a boyfriend and anybody that says as such is just bitter. He’s much more than that and

Wow. Okay. It seems I was mistaken. Sorry. His role is not to be her romantic partner…its to be her romantic partner. Wow, thanks for clarifying. Here i was thinking he should offer more to the show on his own, but i guess being a boyfriend/true love/ romantic partner is enough. Mhmm . And what? I’m bitter all because I think the character should be more interesting and have way more to do in the story because he is now one of the main cast?

Are you really content that Hook just floats around Emma’s character for the show? Is that all it takes to keep you invested? You were complaining that Hook doesn’t get enough screen time, were you not? So I’m bitter by saying that if he does get more it needs to be something interesting, relevant, and something that pushes the story forward?

 

He still exists bc he’s dating the main character of the show but it’s not why he exists in the first place.

Boom. I agree. Hook wasn’t centered around Emma at the start. He had a goal, a storyline (getting his revenge on Rump) and was being deliciously dark trying to achieve it. Now he just floats around whatever Emma is doing. Then he gets a centric episode,  has some dialog scenes with other characters, and then goes back to Emma. Wash and repeat.

As far as Hook’s role on the show, it’s to be Emma’s kindred spirit.

Exactly as I’ve been saying… It should be more than that.

A lost boy much like her looking for a family and a place to call home

Oh there are huge similarities between them in this relationship.  A (literal) lost boy….a lost girl….both sent away from their families…one a child of dark magic…the other a child of light magic…who found each other even though they were centuries apart, connected through fate and destiny, have a story and relevance that exists outside of one another and were original characters to the series…..Oh wait….

But i’m not here to turn this into a ship war. Just my view.

Hook suffers and owns up to his mistake and knows that redemption is a long winding road and it takes lots of work. Hence why he wears the rings on his finger as a reminder to himself about the things he’s done in the past and to be a better man. He still to this day even though he does view himself as a hero he still has a hard time forgiving himself for his past deeds even if the people around him have already forgiven him. That is how you do a correct redemption arc and I’m not sure how he’s never payed for the things he’s done. He’s literally died for it.

I totally disagree….. Hook giving a reason for his stylish accessories is good and all but come on…. Once again, Regina has had her redemption through entire seasons, having ups and downs, falling back into villainy, and out of it, and growing as character and striving to be different than who she was before, and is still doing that… It didn’t happen overnight. Its not just saying “Hey, I’ve changed now!” and moving on. There is a huge difference between Regina saying “I’m not that person anymore” and “It wasn’t me, it was a different version of me, called the EQ”.

Hook went from villain to “redeemed” when he turned his ship around at the end of season 2 and everything after that was basically the writers trying to tell us “hey, look, he’s not that bad of a guy!” Hook’s is the poorest redemption arc on the show because they aren’t even trying. Rumpel had a great redemption arc before they ruined his character. Regina still hasa good one because she isn’t giving up. Some Hook fans accept the bare minimum from him as a character. He was bad. Now he’s good. The end. I just don’t find it interesting. I don’t think Hook has changed all that much (and I cite season 3B again, where they all went back to the Enchanted Forest. See, Regina didn’t revert back to the Evil Queen and start terrorizing people. She stayed with her family and tried to help the issue they were facing. Hook up and abandoned everyone and went back to…being a pirate.. Oh, but hey at least he’s not sleeping around anymore because he loves Emma, so hes a good guy afterall, guys. He only did something heroic when he believed it would get him back to Emma. That’s the only thing driving his character).

 

. Emma is going through a crisis as a Savior and with all the Savior Mythology coming up that they have been teasing, and with her death sentence future dream with Gideon, Hook’s part has become important. Emma needs to believe she is the Savior and that she can do anything bc she is the product of true love! Regina has helped her realize this in the Wish Realm and Hook did it in Storybrooke as well. I don’t remember anyone complaining when Robin was Regina’s moral compass and helpful boyfriend. No one said he was a bad character.

Because she totally hasn’t had to believe in herself, ever? That’s not against Hook, that’s against the writers, Emma is constantly in a loop of saying “I cant do it, I don’t know who I am, I have walls!” and people (usually Hook, Regina, or Henry) having to constantly reassure her. I don’t like that at all, nothing to do with him, but that’s his role entirely when it comes to her. They literally need to just bring Rob Schnieder into this show so whenever Emma starts doubting herself he’ll be in the crowd like:

Anyway, I’ve summed up everything as best I could:

– I have no issue with hook solely because he is Hook. I loved Hook. I don’t like what he has become.

– My issues with Hook are because he isn’t very well written, the writers want us to accept everything he does as kosher, and he isn’t actually doing anything new.

– He is entirely nothing but the Pirate Mascot and a lot of major Hook fans are okay with this. I am not.

– In order for me to be happy with Hook, I just want the character to be fun again. Swooning over Emma is not fun. Flashbacks mean to show that he was really good all along, is not fun. Other characters liking him and talking to him won’t make me like him as a character.

I loved Hook’s episode with Ursula. I loved the Dark Hook thing. I even loved his Hades adventure with Arthur. I give hook props when props are due. But I’m just not here for the constant lap dog Hook who exists solely to be Emma’s mate/kindred spirit/true love/boyfriend/ whatever ya’ll want to call it.

I don’t see the issue with that.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[TheWatcher]

In general, I think a lot of the bad guys are way more interesting when they are evil as opposed to when they become good. For Hook, its the same. As evil pirate Hook, I found his character interesting and he was different than the other guys on the show when he was first introduced. My issue came later when after he became “Redeemed” he just tended to float around Emma the majority of the time. Which brings me to:

Then we went to Neverland and he, Captain Hook, still added nothing of value to the storyline about Neverland. It was the Emma/Bae and Rumpel/Bae and Emma/Snow scenes that were the best part of that arc. Then Pan really become interesting later in the arc. Hook is just sort of there.

This! Hook took a backseat in an arc where he should have had the major role. It’s Neverland! He’s HOOK! He and Rumpel should have learned to bury their hatchet as enemies, worked together to defeat Pan, and Hook would have solidified himself as a hero through his actions. But instead he just says “Hey, I’m good now” and spends the majority of the Neverland arc trying to appeal to Emma over Baelfire. Hook’s biggest potential should have been right there but he was just “there.”

 

 

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Author]

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