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Stahlop wrote:
Timeline:
Alice is 10, which also makes Emma around 10 at this point. Alice was conceived the night Regina was defeated and couldn’t cast the curse. So only 10 years have passed since the curse didn’t happen. We haven’t reached the point yet where Regina came to the Wish Realm. That’s not for another 18 years or so. Rumple didn’t get released until Regina came.
That’s basically right, but I’d add about four years to your estimate, so Regina came to the Wish Realm about 22 years after the events in this episode, if Alice was 10. They stated in the Season 6 finale that Henry was supposedly 14 years old. Since he was not much younger when Regina went to the Wish Realm, we know that trip occurred when Emma was about 32, which would be 22 years after she and Alice were 10.
[adrotate group="5"]I don’t see how a date of 2017 in Hyperion Heights could fit the timeline, given the following dates have been established in the show as canon:
1. They established in the show that the newborn Emma came through the portal in 1983, at the same time Storybrooke was created.
2.They also said Henry was born 18 years later, which would be 2001.
3. Henry went to find Emma in Season One when he was ten, so that was in 2011.
4.They stated in the Season Six finale that Henry was fourteen, so Season Six supposedly ended in 2015.
5. Even if Henry finished high school at 17, that means he left Storybrooke in 2018. (I can’t see Emma and Regina letting him go off on his own if he was only 16 or younger.)
So it had to be after 2017 before Henry even left home. Also, Rumple and Belle left Storybrooke when Gideon was one year old, so that would have been in 2016, But they didn’t go to The Edge of Realms and experience the different time flow there until Gideon was much older – about 16 or so, at least, which would be in 2031 *IF* they spent the intervening 16 years in realms where time passed at the same rate as here. That would then fix a limit on when Rumple went to EF 2.0 just before Henry met Cinderella before the ball.
Of course, we don’t know how many different realms Henry visited before he met Cinderella or how time ran in those realms. We also don’t know what happened after he met Cinderella and if he, Cinderella, and Lucy were someplace where their time moved more slowly than Stroybrooke time, but, the time in Hyperion Heights can’t be earlier than 2018, if Hyperion Heights is in the same world as Storybrooke, which Regina’s adoption papers seem to indicate must be the case. If Lucy aged someplace where time was the same as in Storybrooke, that would add another ten years to the minimum elapsed time and bring us up to at least 2028, or more likely early in the 2030s, which would be consistent with Gideon’s age.
Given the title of the episode, I was hoping there would be some references to the short story of the same name by Jorge Luis Borges, since it is one of my all time favorites. I didn’t really see much to connect the episode to the Borges story except perhaps that the garden turned out to not be what it appeared to be, but was in reality the hiding place for Anastasia’s coffin. Also, the presence of the Wish Realm (which I still grumble about) does bring in the idea of alternate realities which Borges story addressed.
I too like the mysteries that make this reminiscent of the first season. Especially the ambiguity in Weaver. I like to think that Rumple is awake and scheming to break the curse.
I had a different reaction. I assumed from the beginning, all the way back to the pilot, that the Enchanted Forest and all the characters there were from an alternate reality, so there could be an infinite number of versions of all of them. An alternate reality seemed the most likely assumption since we knew they lived in a land with magic while the original curse would send them to “A Land Without Magic.”
When they established in the Second Season that the Enchanted Forest and our world were synchronized in time, the idea of alternate realities also avoided the contradiction that most of the characters (like Snow, Charming, and Regina, et al) were only born a few decades ago while their stories in our world have been around for centuries (The story of Cinderella is more than 2000 years old and goes back at least to Ptolomaic Egypt.)
So I have no problem with the story logic of alternate realms with alternate versions of the characters. It does appear that time runs faster in this alternate realm where Henry aged, much like the Black Fairy’s realm. Maybe these alternate realms are all orbiting black holes! 8>) [Just joking – I don’t want them to mix sf with fantasy!] How well they execute the idea of alternate realms dramatically, remains to be seen.
The potion took him back to pre-Beowulf, back to who he before the daggers apparent influence (if we go with @AKA) so I think it’s safe to say we have a handle of Bae’s character. It was largely established in Desperate Souls and the Return. At every turn he was a boy who believed in his papa, a kind boy, a loving boy, and not someone who was given to moments of violence like this.
But that’s exactly my point (and, I think, also AKA’s); the Bae in “The Return” was a Bae who had no memory of ordering Beowulf’s death. He might have developed into a very different person over those months (not to mention a different adult in later years) if he had lived with those memories. That one bad decision might (or might not) have influenced his later life. But Rumple wanted to ensure that it couldn’t affect him.I don’t understand how a memory potion affects darkness in one’s soul. Like not remembering you’ve done something bad completely takes away the impulse to do bad things? It means your soul is turned bright white again? This seems pretty nonsensical to me. Why not just give all the villains memory potions then!
I think it makes sense that the memory potion affects the darkness in a person. We are the sum of our experiences. If a potion could erase ALL of a person’s memories he would become a tabula rasa – he would be as innocent as a newborn. So removing a person’s first step toward darkness should give them a second chance. This is a theme that has been addressed in many works, from John Locke to science fiction stories like Babylon 5 that deal with the “Death of Personality” which consists of wiping a person’s memories as punishment for their crimes.
I have more trouble with the question of whether it was a retcon of Bae’s character to have him want to kill Beowulf to begin with. To be fair, we should remember that we’ve only seen a few minutes of Bae’s character before the events of this episode – when Rumple first became the Dark One in season one’s “Desperate Souls.” Every scene of Bae after that episode would have taken place after he drank the potion.
Despite these questions, I think Rumple’s willingness to sacrifice Bae’s opinion of him in order to protect the boy was the best example of Rumple’s humanity that we have seen since the flashbacks to Rumple crippling himself in “Manhattan” during the second season.
I originally assumed the name “Rittenhouse” was just a coincidence but after the final scene of the Bonnie and Clyde episode, I think it must refer to David Rittenhouse (1732-1796), one of the first and most prominent American astronomers. He was famous for being the first American to build orreries and precise clocks – just like the clock we saw Flynn access in the final scene! Rittenhouse built orreries for the College of New Jersey (now Princeton University) and the College of Philadelphia (now the University of Pennsylvania.) Here is a photo of the Rittenhouse orrery at UPenn:
Orrery built by David Rittenhouse
Rittenhouse was deeply involved in early American history. His friend Thomas Jefferson wrote in Notes on the State of Virginia, “We have supposed Mr. Rittenhouse second to no astronomer living: that in genius he must be the first, because he is self-taught.”
Working with astronomer Andrew Ellicott, Rittenhouse completed the survey of the Mason-Dixon line and organized American efforts to observe the transit of Venus in 1769. He served as the second president of the American Philosophical Society, sandwiching his term between those of his two close friends, Benjamin Franklin, who preceded him, and Thomas Jefferson, who succeeded him. He was deeply committed to supporting the American Revolution and served on the revolutionary Committee of Safety in 1778 and as Treasurer of Pennsylvania from 1779 to 1787. Jefferson told him that he should leave such duties to lesser men because, “nobody can conceive that nature ever intended to throw away a Newton upon the occupations of a crown.” Rittenhouse would in fact follow the example of Newton (who was director of the British Mint in his later years) when George Washington appointed him to be the first director of the US Mint.
Obviously, there are plenty of possibilities for connecting him with history and with the measurement of time.
This is the only other TV show I watch besides OUAT and they seem to keep it just barely good enough to keep me watching. It reminds me a lot of the old Time Tunnel show. I liked the fact that they did an episode about Apollo 11 and it was good to see them focus on Katherine Johnson but I was annoyed by some of the needless errors in the episode.Why were we supposed to think that messing with the computers would somehow affect the radios? That made no sense at all. Besides, Buzz Aldrin was known as “Dr. Rendezvous” because he had worked out pre-computed rendezvous calculations on a set of “cheat sheets” which they could have used to link up with the command module even without communication from Earth. The spacecraft also had a sextant for navigation so they could have navigated back to Earth without radios, although they obviously preferred the much safer option of getting more precise data radioed from Earth.
Why did they show film footage (which wasn’t developed until they got back to Earth) of the descent to the Moon on the screen in Mission Control, making it look like a TV transmission, when there was no TV transmission of the descent? (The TV camera wasn’t unpacked until Armstrong began to climb down the ladder.) It would have been easier to just leave out that footage but instead they went to a fair amount of trouble to splice in the film footage and intentionally make the show wrong!
Also, at one point they showed an old film of John Glenn’s flight which was supposed to be a TV transmission of Neil Armstrong. Things like that really distract from the story.
Who is Violet. She doesn’t need a label, ‘cause she’s Violet, but seriously…Who is she?
If you mean “who is she?” in the literal sense, we saw in the last season finale that she is really Hello Central, the daughter of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court. Since I’m a big fan of the book, I still can’t believe that I never suspected her identity when they identified her father as “Sir Morgan” when the character in the novel was named Hank Morgan. Of course, they referred to him throughout most of the book (and the movies) as “Sir Boss.”
If you mean “who is she” in a more metaphoric sense as to her ultimate role, I’m afraid I don’t yet have a clue!
1. Rumple and Regina – Rumple. The Dark One has more experience and since he taught Regina, he knows her weaknesses.
2. Charming and Hook – Charming. Two hands are better than one.3. Emma and Zelena – Emma. “Heroes always win.”
4. Snow and Robin. – A pretty even match between two bandits. I think they’d fight to a draw, then team up to rob some villain.
5. Belle and Aurora – Belle. She has fighting experience and she’ll find a book that reveals some weakness of Aurora.
6. Cora and Maleficent – Cora. If Cruella could trick Maleficent the way we saw on the show, Cora certainly could. No one beats Cora at manipulation.
7. Pan and Cruella. – Pan. He has more powerful magic and he’s more ruthless.
8. Ursula and Ingrid. – Ingrid. She’ll freeze the water around Ursula.
9. Henry and Wendy. – Wendy. If it came to physical combat, Henry would never hit a girl. If it’s a battle of strategy, he is at the age now that she could get him to do anything by just batting her eyelashes at him. He might have had a chance before puberty, though.
10. Grumpy and Felix. – Grumpy. He’s more determined.
11. Elsa and Lily. – Fire and ice! What a perfect matchup! I’ll go with Lily being able to melt Elsa’s ice.
12. Neal and Will – I can’t decide.Maybe Neal because his experience from Neverland gives him an edge?
13. Red and Anastasia – Anastasia. She has more magic.
14. Sneezy and Doc – Doc. Sneezy would sneeze at the most critical moments, leaving himself open.
15. Happy and Bashful – Happy. He’s more muscular.
16. Dopey and Sleepy. – Dopey wins by default because Sleepy overslept and missed the fight.
17. Cinderella and Anna – Anna. She has more fighting experience.
18. Mulan and Lancelot – Too close to call.
19. Jafar and Merlin – Merlin. I think he has more powerful magic.
20. Tinkerbell and Blue Fairy – Blue. I think “The original power” has more experience to draw upon.
21. Granny and Bo Peep. – Granny. No contest.
22. Whale and Kristoff – Kristoff. I think Whale would underestimate his opponent.
