For our in-depth discussion of the episode, “The Brothers Jones,” we talked about the Jones brothers’ good and bad form, Henry’s authorship, and that massive continuity error that happened in the episode. Plus! We’ve got you covered as our Greek Mythology expert, Jacquelyn, has got some brand new lessons on the Greek Mythology, educating us about Zelena’s possible connection with Hades!
We have watched and re-watched this episode, The Brothers Jones, and did a little bit of research before this episode because the previous time we’ve seen Liam is in the episode 3×05, “Good Form.” A lot of what they said in the said episode line up, and it’s interesting that in this episode, the brothers called themselves “The Jones Brothers,” whereas in here, they call themselves “The Brothers Jones.”
Enchanted Forest (Past)
The flashback in this episode started out with Liam and Hook swabbing the decks and you see Hook get a little tipsy and gamble, did anyone think it was a retcon because everyone thought Hook didn’t started drinking or gambling until after Liam died. Perhaps Hook decided to change his ways and decided to be more honorable when they got into the navy because this time, they were doing something by choice and not because they were sold into servitude?
How much of the string of events with approaching storm and the mutiny is ruining Hades’ plan? Can Hades see the future? Can he see where people are headed? When they were going into the storm, did Hades feel that that’s breaking his plans and felt like he has to intervene? Given the amount of times we’ve seen the characters interact in the past when you wouldn’t have thought they were able, the fact that Hades has never been brought up by anybody was kind of questionable. Unless it’s one of those things where they didn’t know they were talking to Hades, or it has been deals like these where they have to keep it a secret for their own sake? If that’s the case, it could potentially answer a lot of questions that everyone has been asking over the past couple of years.
If anything, Hades’ actions would be something that leads to a lot of people dying, because Liam was turning the ship around when they staged the mutiny against Captain Silver that prevented these people, who are probably all going to die if Liam had not put up a fight. One of the biggest problem over all, however, is Liam’s character. When we saw him before, he was noble and honorable. But then suddenly, one appearance from Hades and he’s suddenly ready to murder a ship-full of people to make sure that he and his brother survives and gets what he wants. It doesn’t seem consistent with anything else we know about him.
Is that really Long John Silver? Why did Captain Silver give up without even a fight? Didn’t he just say that he was the type of Captain who earned his name?
When Hades visits Liam, we learned a couple of interesting things about Hades; He is a God, and we also learned that it seems that he can’t directly hurt people in the Overworld, but he can use his magic to protect people while allowing the rest to die. While Hades isn’t one that comes to the surface a lot, the rest of the Gods do. But while this doesn’t really line up in the Greek Mythology, it still adds up nicely to the story and the show.
Has Hades been using the Eye of the Storm all this time to lure people into the storm so that they would die and feed the Underworld? What does the Eye of the Storm do exactly? But if that is the case, why would he give it to Liam and lose the chance of getting fresh souls from dying in the storm?
As they go to the storm, we finally learned how Hook got the ring that he later gives to Emma in Camelot, and one of the Jones brothers pointed out that the lucky ring always gets people home safe. Is that foreshadowing, because the people in the Underworld are trying to get home safely? Does the ring had anything to do with the heroes getting home safely? This episode, while enjoyable, gave more story than plot. This episode also felt more like a filler episode compared to the other episodes that we’ve seen of this arc so far. However, it was nice that they didn’t fall back into another flashback with the Evil Queen chasing Snow White.
When they washed up on shore after the shipwrecked, the Jones brothers were then drafter right into the Jewel of the Realm, which later became The Jolly Roger. Did it already have the Pegasus sail on it? Or did they put it up there specifically for the mission going into Neverland?
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Starting out the Underworld was searching for the quill—Bob—with Cruella and learned from the Apprentice that he gave some half truths. Apparently, the rules are more flexible in the Underworld, did he mean the rules of magic, or the pen? Furthermore, the Apprentice said that his unfinished business is Henry, can he move on now that Henry has made the right choice? He also said that it would be a terrible mistake to resurrect Cruella. Is Cruella going to be a bigger problem in the next episodes to come?
Why is the Sorcerer’s mansion in the Underworld if Merlin isn’t even in the Underworld? Did the Sorcerer’s mansion come along with the second curse and not the original Dark Curse? Or has it always been there and we just never seen it? Did Merlin have unfinished business of his own, or was he done like Neal because he has a gift of foresight? After all, he never reconciled with Nimue despite the fact that he accepted her being the Dark One? Where is Nimue and the other Dark Ones? Are they in the dagger? Don’t they all have unfinished business of their own?
If the pen and the story book are in the Underworld, what else is in there? Is the Sorcerer’s hat in the Underworld, as well? We also did learn why Henry is doing all these, not just to help Cruella, but because he is sick of sitting on the sidelines. It was interesting because he keeps saying how he wants to be a hero when he’s already one and has been a hero for years.
Funny to hear Emma actually affirming Hook’s devilishly handsome looks instead of rolling her eyes when Hook told her that Hades beat the handsome out of him. Furthermore, we were also very happy to have them address Hook’s weakness head-on. It was the best explanation so far of what they were trying to get at with the difference between Emma and Hook. But can he have forgiveness or redemption without any sort of suffering? Hook starts off this episode saying that he doesn’t deserved to be saved because of his crimes, which are numerous and lengthy and extend back many years. It was nice that he admitted that, perhaps, he doesn’t deserved to be saved because he plunged in head first into the darkness and because of all his various crimes previously. However, by the end of the episode, he comes around to Emma’s way of thinking, and that the only person he seems to be making recompense to is Emma, and she’s the only one who got to decide that he was worthy to be saved and that he’s been “redeemed.” But where’s the work? Where’s the suffering that earned him this forgiveness? He was beaten up and bloody a bit, and perhaps was one of Cerberus’s chew toys for a very brief period, but for the many crimes he committed, is it enough?
It was really interesting that they said that someone had once tried to defeat Hades before. When did it happen and by whom? What does defeating Hades and freeing everyone do? Is there no more Underworld at that point? Or is it just functioning the way it’s supposed to without him? Is the game really rigged? People have left, how was it rigged? Daniel moved one, so is Neal, if he had been in the Underworld at all, as well as Henry Sr., Hercules, and Liam. Hades may have a lot of control in the Underworld, but it doesn’t seem like he keeps people from moving on. Is every ticking of the clock doesn’t just tick him off, but actually him losing power? The clock-ticking in the Underworld seems to be symbolic for him so it’s got to mean something. Can Hades go to the worst place? What are his weaknesses? What was the first attempt to overthrow Hades?
As they then started searching Snow White’s apartment for the book, they said again that the story book is the embodiment of hope. But if hope is a contraband in the Underworld, then why is the Sorcerer’s mansion even in the Underworld? On the other hand, Liam was right and spot on calling that Emma is being selfish and self-centered when she essentially take dying as a hero from Hook.
While I’m glad that Emma was blamed for being selfish. I wish it came from other characters and I don’t feel like it was portrayed as something serious that she needs to learn from, basically it was used as a “clue” that something is wrong with Liam and not as observing some kind of flaw with Emma. By the end of the episode, Emma didn’t learn anything or didn’t grow as a character.
I’ve actually come to realize that I really dislike Emma. She’s become clingy and seemingly emotionally callous about anyone other than Hook, and defensive of anyone who isn’t affirming her 100% all the time. It’s little things, but cumulatively, they add up to create this impression of someone who is both shallow and judgmental. For example her flipping her fingers to fix Hook’s bruises early in the episode — it wasn’t framed as her healing his injuries, so much as restoring his looks. Or her little snarky comment about Henry being emo. I mean, you drag your teenager to “Hell” to save your boyfriend an “emo” response seems pretty darn mild to me. But it’s all about Emma and her discomfort. And her dislike of Liam: that bit of dialogue with Hook was sort of hilarious, as I remember it, it was something like “Hey, Liam doesn’t like me, I think there’s something wrong with him.” If that’s the Savior, the the SB crew is in real trouble.
With all they’ve set up and character growth, it seems they need to have to sit and have a long talk about where Emma’s character is trying to go. Perhaps the writers aren’t trying to intend it that way, but a lot of the viewers seem to starting to see it that way.
Down in the Rabbit Hole, did anyone notice that there were more red peppers, this time pickled in jars? And when Hades said that he’s got “eyes” everywhere, is he using magic to spy on people down in the Underworld?
When they got to Merlin’s mansion to start looking around for everything and apparently, the key was all they needed and it seems like the key was the key to getting in. And when Liam found the book, we got a page and here’s what the page says:
Hades rolled over in his bed with a lazy yawn. His face caught the harsh, blood-red Underworld sunlight pouring into his vaulted bedroom and he squinted. Some how he had overslept. Wiping the sleep out of his eyes, he wondered why his alarm clock didn’t go off. In his case, the alarm was the sound of a thousand freshly reaped souls screaming in torment. They usually wailed every morning on schedule as soon as they were deposited into his infernal river, obviating the need for him to enslave a lackey to wake him up. But for some reason on this particular morning, the souls never wailed. Not really thinking too much of it, Hades went about his morning rituals. He walked and fed his three-headed hellhound, Cerberus. He took a luxurious bath, then dried himself by the heat of his flaming hair. And he oversaw his cavernous domain from the top of a volcano while sipping a glass of fine brandy. It was only when he checked his soul-counter in his private lounge that he realized he had a problem. Inexplicably, it registered a paltry amount of a few dozen. Hades shook the counter to make sure the device was working properly, but the dial didn’t budge. His equipment was working fine. It was his soul count that was pitifully low. Hades shook his head and clenched his fist. There was little that put him in a worse mood than a low soul count. He felt like going out and drowning the first twenty restless spirits he came across in his infernal river, but he knew that wouldn’t solve his problem. To get to the bottom of the issue, he’d have to look at the soul-providers who fueled his supply up in the Overworld. Unfortunately, Hades didn’t have any real power when he journeyed above ground, and out of his domain. Even if he could figure out which of his admired cadre of murderers had stopped murdering, he’d have to find a creative way to get them to resume killing.
First he needed time to think. He took a stroll through the grimy, sulfur-laden streets, which teemed with sad, restless spirits. These were the souls who still had unfinished business hanging over their heads, weighing on their permanently silenced hearts. The spirits avoided eye contact with Hades, afraid he might unleash his wrath on them. But Hades stopped one for a chat. A small, bearded villager in tattered rags. His rags were blue, and seemed to have once been part of a proud outfit.
This reminds us a lot of what we saw of Regina’s mornings in Storybrooke before the curse was broken. And yes, it was The Golden Bird on the pages before Hades’s story.
When was Hades’ story written and who wrote it? Did Hades kill whoever wrote his story?
I think Hades story happens during the 28 years of the curse. Rumple was supposedly his biggest supplier of souls but he was trapped in Storybrooke as Mr Gold so obviously couldn’t go about murdering.
Was it Isaac who wrote Hades’s story? Was this particular story book different from what was in Storybrooke?
What would James and David’s meeting be like? Can they actually reconcile?
Regina said that she ripped her pages in Henry’s book to keep Henry from knowing the truth that she was the Evil Queen. We re-watched the Pilot episode and the second episode, The Thing You Loved Most and it was clear that Henry full knew Regina was the Evil Queen. Regina did not rip the pages from Henry’s book. Henry ripped the pages out himself about Emma, to keep Regina from knowing the truth about Emma being the Savior and not what Regina said in the episode. Even if she had ripped it out at some point, it would have been for a different purpose. That being said, it was nice that Adam Horowitz acknowledge the massive continuity error that has been done on this episode. Still, it would have been appropriate to double check facts before letting the episode air.
How did they not know that Liam was responsible for their deaths? When they took the brothers Jones at the Mount Doom, we love that Hades blow people into the pit. Was Hades appalled when the portal to the better place opened for Liam, because it looked like he can’t breath. Why did those people go with the person who murdered them? Is that their better place? To spend eternity with the person who murdered them?
The afterlife is individualized… this may be a problem when you think long term wise if you really think about it… say for instance that Emma’s happy ending is with her family, but Hook’s happy ending is on the seas with his brother… so these apparent “true loves” will just be separated in different realms for all of eternity? Or is all of the afterlife in one big world that has everything.
Is the better place different for everyone? How does this work for couples? What if Robin’s heaven is a woods but Regina’s is a castle? Can you cross between heavens to see your family? Or are you forever alone in heaven? Is the happy place for couples a place where they both could be happy together?
Back at Merlin’s as Emma and Hook make amends, they kept searching for other things that can help them. But why not set camp there instead?
Meanwhile, at the Charmings and while Henry is going full emo teenager, there was another story on the page aside from the Golden Bird, which was Maid Maleen. The conversation between Henry and Charming was also endearing. We miss these quiet family moments that have little to do with the plot of the moment because we rarely see them anymore. But how will Henry recreate Hades’ story?
Back at Hades’ chamber as he retrieves the pages about him showed two different photos in the book, one is a photo of his chamber, and another of him and Zelena with Oz in the background. What was his secret with Zelena?
Previously we discovered that Zelena didn’t really die, she replaced Marian. Technically though she did die when Rumple killed her, so perhaps she went to the Underworld. She definitely had unfinished business at the time of her death. Perhaps Hades assisted her in her otherwise hard to explain return to the living. Perhaps a deal was made at that time. The fact that Hades brought Zelena back from the dead wouldn’t be much of a secret though, not one that would endanger Hades at least, so it must be more than that. Perhaps the dangerous secret is the nature of the deal. Hades could be the real father of Zelena’s baby. Everyone seems interested in babies. Gods including Hades have been involved in having babies with mortals. Though I hope that’s not the answer. I don’t want to think that a baby is Hades’ weakness. This would also render pretty much everything that has happened with her baby related to Robbin and Regina meaningless.
— Gareth Gray
Is Hades actually the father of Zelena’s baby and not Robin Hood? Does Zelena owe him a child?
I was thinking that Hades probably doesn’t need or even really want the Rumbelle baby. He’s only using it to control Rumple who he’s already admitted he sees as a rival. I think that Hades plans on giving the baby to Zelena to raise and keep away from Rumple since he can’t bring the baby down below. This way he accomplishes two things: 1. He keeps his control over Rumple and 2. He has Zelena as an ally when she finally gets the baby she’s always wanted since hers was taken from her. Could the Rumbelle baby be the OUAT version of Rapunzel? I can definitely see Zelena as the crazy witch who keeps her locked in a tower!
Is there actually a connection between Zelena’s baby and the Maid Maleen story?
If the theory is true that Hades created the dark curse, maybe he knew Zelena was being taught by rumple to cast it. That’s how they met and perhaps even made a deal with him. I think in the ripped up pages there is evidence showing he was involved in the creation of the dark curse.
— Jessica Frey
Is Zelena Persephone?
Persephone was playing by a river or in a field and Hades comes up from the Underworld and snatches her away. He takes her to the Underworld and makes her his queen. Persephone’s mother, Demeter, is beyond distressed–Demeter is also the goddess of the harvest. Because she was so overcome with grief, the seasons halted and everything stopped growing. Zeus sent Hermes to the underworld to make s deal with Hades: release Persephone so long as she has eaten nothing of this realm. Hades gives Persephone pomegranate seeds and this binds her to Hades and the Underworld. Persephone can only live Overworld 6 months of the year during which things grow (spring and summer) and the must return for 6 months, during which things die (fall and winter).
We already got a hint that Hades knew something about Zelena because kind of accused Cora for mistreating her, is the twist going to be that the deal struck is perhaps between Cora and Hades where Cora agrees to do Hades’ bidding in the hopes of keeping her eldest daughter? If the show goes the Disney traditional route of Hades resenting his brothers, that’s a lot like Zelena resenting Regina, which would Hades’ bond with Zelena.
Still, what is his weakness? What makes this have to be a secret for Hades? If his weakness is falling in love with Zelena, what are the heroes going to do? How will they exploit this particular weakness of his? How will they remain heroes and exploit his weakness at the same time?
River of Lost Souls confirmed to not be Lethe
The Blue River – Styx (As confirmed in Devil’s Due); The Grey River – Cocytus (As confirmed in Devil’s Due); The Yellow River – Lethe (As confirmed in The Brothers Jones); The Green River – Currently referred to as “the River of Lost Souls”; The Red River – Unknown; The Red River is most likely the Phlegethon, the river of fire. My guess is that if the River of Lost Souls does have a proper name, it is actually the Acheron, the river of pain, woe or lamentation. I guess that would also be a fitting choice.
- Archeron: River of Woe; in the Suda (Byzantine dictionary) “a place of healing, not a place of punishment”
Is there anything else that you think we missed from the episode, The Brothers Jones? Share them all out using the comment section below or continue the conversation over the forum.
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- In 5×16 “Our Decay,” Emma, Snow, David, Regina, Robin, Henry and Hook continue to search for a way to free everyone from the Underworld.
- Gold creates a portal to Storybrooke, which transports Belle, Zelena and Baby Hood to the Underworld
- Belle, on the other hand, is reunited with Rumple only to learn some tremendously shocking news that will change her life forever
- Meanwhile, Snow and David hopelessly attempt to send a message from the Underworld to their son, Neal.
- Back in the past, Hades learns about Zelena’s very special spell and pays her a visit in Oz
- 5×16 “Our Decay” was written by Tse Chun and Dana Horgan, and directed by Steve Pearlman.
- Guest stars include Keegan Connor Tracy as Blue Fairy, Emma Caulfield as Blind Witch, Teri Reeves as Dorothy, and Greg Germann as Hades.
- Grown-up Dorothy is going to be a witch-hunter
- Promo for 5×16 shows Hades visiting Zelena in Oz
- 5×16 seemed like it’s going to be an Oz-centric episode
- We also got a look at the scarecrow, and he is the stuff that nightmares are made of. Did Zelena turn someone into a scarecrow, perhaps her father?
- We also got a shot of the Underworld with Robin and Regina talking to Zelena, trying to know what happened with Hades
- We’re also probably going to see Zelena and Hades interacting in the present day, with Hades indicating that he did all these for her
- No promotional photos and sneak peek as of this recording
- Adam Horowitz shared a script tease between Belle and the Blue Fairy
- The cast are done filming in Steveston and the last photos we got was of the two new actors, Sam Whitwer and Hank Harris and they looked like Victorian gothic Penny Dreadful kind of clothing.
- Sam Whitwer had a big scar in his face, while Hank Harris’ outfit seem to be from New York, whereas Whitwer’s character looked like he is from the Enchanted Forest
- One of the popular theories from the forum is that they could be Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde.
- There are no photos of the two together as of the moment
- They have also wrapped at the New York City set and Snow White was seen in a fountain
- There was also a photo of Henry and Violet sharing a kiss. Could Henry finally be getting his first kiss?
- There was also a picture of Henry standing outside the lion statue in New York City talking to the entire group.
- There’s also some photos of everyone coming back in Storybrooke
- There was a picture and a video of Hook and Emma in what looked like a celebration, possibly celebrating their engagement
- They are also, apparently, filming sort of a backstory of Robin’s death
- They also have filmed Robin’s funeral, but it probably won’t happen in the finale