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I had a lovely pleasant debate in the CaptainSwan thread with some CSers over Hook’s behaviour and actions in the episode Dark Hollow. Whilst it may not have necessarily changed how I felt about Hook in that episode, it did give me some things to think about in regards to how Emma may have viewed Hook in that episode. So I thought why not create a debate thread to discuss all the ships in Once (romantic, non-romantic, Crack, Bro-ships, Sis-ships, Family ships etc) because not everyone visits certain threads where these delightful debates can occur.
This thread isn’t aiming to be a “my ship’s better than your ship” thread aka Shipping wars, it’s an opportunity to express why you ship a certain ship or even why you don’t ship it, why you may support one outcome over another, why you prefer character A over character B, etc. It’s an opportunity to explain your interpretation of a scene to someone who has maybe interpreted the same scene differently, it’s an opportunity to see every perspective.
I’ll start the debate with this:
I don’t think Belle and Moe should reunite because of what he tried to do her by sending her over the town line.
Moe made it seem like he thought Belle had died when Rumple first went to him with the poster saying “If I’d held out hope, perhaps she would’ve survived such a wicked trade” to which Rumple replied “she did”. If Moe thought Belle was really dead, (and I wouldn’t put it past Regina to have gone to both Rumple and Moe and said the other was responsible for Belle’s “death”)then why was there a missing person poster for Belle in the first place, though Moe seemed to start the conversation with thinking Belle was alive and somewhere in town, why did he suddenly change his story?
When Smee kidnaps Belle and takes her to Moe, Moe tells her that when the curse broke, he searched for her and discovered the dark one still had her “captive”. So why did he lie to Rumple?
Belle’s response was that she chose to stay with Rumple to which Moe replied “Are you saying you fell in love with him?” Now there are many reasons why Belle could’ve chosen to stay with Rumple that aren’t she fell in love with him, eg, friendship, it’s a roof over her head, etc yet Moe immediately jumps to “you fell in love with him” which to me suggests that Moe suspected that Rumple and Belle were in a relationship.
When Belle confirms her love for Rumple, Moe tries to get her to promise to him that she no longer loves Rumple and that she won’t see him again, Moe is trying to control her. When Belle refuses, Moe tells her that she “doesn’t know what Rumple will do to her, what he’s already done” Rumple’s not done anything bad to Belle so what does he think Rumple’s supposedly done? (Perhaps this shows why Rumple so readily believed Regina’s lie about Belle’s “death”. The best lies are those with an element of truth in them. Maybe Moe does believe Rumple has tainted Belle).
Moe then tells Smee to “do it” which suggests that Moe had already planned to send Belle over the town line anyway before she even got to his shop since Moe didn’t have to explain to Smee what to do. It seems like Belle’s only chance to save herself would’ve been if she had given in to Moe’s demands.
Thoughts?
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixNice title, although maybe I am old fashioned fandom school, but shipping refers in my books strictly to romantic relationships. Just saying. Doesn’t mean I expect us to only discuss those here and exclude bromance, sisterhoods, BFFs, parents and whatever kind of closer relationship people can have, but people might not get that by the title.
Now thoughts about Belle and her father Moe.
After all Moe is Belle’s father, not a good one maybe, but unless he leaves town or gets killed or ends up in a different realm those two probably won’t be able to help it but will have to deal with being related. Even if she tells him to stay away, they still have a relationship, but think it never will be an easy one. No matter what, doubt Moe ever will accept, or even tolerate, that his daughter is in love with Rumple. For sure not as long as he is the Dark One. He probably believes that Belle is suffering what is generally called Stockholm Syndrome (and not just he does, it was discussed by some in forums, finding it hard to understand, how Belle could be in love with evil Rumple), so from his point of view, Belle is confused or even hexed and needs to be rescued. When he wanted to send Belle over the town’s line to make her forget everything, he was a desperate father. If getting her free of Rumple’s influence would have demanded to kill himself, Moe eventually would have done even that. He is not really a bad father, but he doesn’t understand his daughter.
But I would have no problem with Belle and Moe reuniting. If Moe could overcome his distrust and maybe hate for Rumple and at least tolerate, that his daughter sees something good in this imp (and we as audience know, Rumple is not an all ruthless evil guy, not a psychopath type) it could be even possible. Think as much as it has hurt and does hurt Belle, that her father wanted to make her forget everything, and doesn’t understand and accept her love for Rumple, she hasn’t stopped loving her father, she is a far too gentle soul for giving up on him.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Ah, I remember when that set photo of the Game of Thorns van was going around before the season started and some of us got our hopes up that we were gonna see them reconcile. Didn’t end up happening. Though I wonder if they still might, especially with Rumple’s daddy issues seemingly coming to a head by mid-season break, perhaps that could be a catalyst for Belle to seek out her own father.
He is not really a bad father, but he doesn’t understand his daughter.
Agreed. And he doesn’t understand Rumple properly either, but I can’t fault him for that because there are only two people alive who know about the good inside Rumple, and one of those people isn’t even entirely convinced that the good is still in there at the moment. Belle and Neal seriously need to have a serious talk at some point!
As far as Moe knows, Rumple is evil to the core. He’s not just the bad boy that his daughter has a crush on, he’s the actual Dark One, exceedingly powerful magical being, who manipulates and kills people and held his daughter prisoner. It’s no wonder that Moe was desperate to do anything to get his baby girl to forget about loving Rumple.
If they’re gonna get along, then Moe will need to learn to trust Belle’s judgement. He knows what an intelligent young woman she was when she lived at home, and he has to accept that she is still that intelligent young woman, and she’s not brainwashed or under a spell of some sort.
If Rumple’s undoing does end up being that he’s gonna lose the Dark One powers, maybe then Moe would be more easily convinced, because if Rumple can’t cast powerful spells any more, then Belle can’t possibly be under his spell.
I agree with Myril and Phee–also, people forget Mo has personal experience with the violent side of Rumple/Gold. While he didn’t have his FTL memories, it wasn’t a memory wipe the other way when the curse was lifted. So Mo remembers almost being beaten to death by a cane. He didn’t realize Gold was acting that way out of grief and anger that he thought Mo had beaten then induced Belle to suicide.
So no wonder he said to Belle “you don’t understand”–but how I wish they’d stopped yelling and just talked so they could understand. Perhaps in time if Belle ever gets some more plot, perhaps she can have a storyline with parallel backstory to others who also need some forgiveness (obviously Neal/Rumple but there’s tons of characters in this situation). Mo didn’t try to apologize the way Rumple did, so far, but if he comes to Belle and swallows his pride and listens to her, then I think she could begin to forgive him. I think it is the kind of thing though that ought to take time to rebuild, even though Belle is very forgiving.
Mo did cross a very big line (well, he tried to have Belle cross it ;P)>.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
This show being what it is, at some point I expect Moe and Belle will be reunited either on screen or off (I can see the writers glossing over the actual reunion). Belle is the forgiving sort, so while maybe Moe doesn’t deserve it, she’ll forgive him but warn him that her life is with Rumple and he needs to accept that.
Speaking of ships: Archie. Do you guys want to see Archie with anyone? He’s such a nice guy. What’s your favorite Archie ship? I’ll admit, I liked the idea of EvilCricket for a long time.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I was, too, Phee. That would have been a fun ship. Eric could own Perdita and they could take daily walks with their dogs. If Archie ever gets a mate I’m kind of liking the thought of him with Cruella. That would be interesting.
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
I was, too, Phee. That would have been a fun ship. Eric could own Perdita and they could take daily walks with their dogs. If Archive ever gets a mate I’m kind of liking the thought of him with Cruella. That would be interesting.
Archella. Nice.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Ooh Cruella… I forever see Cruella as a drag queen after that Once Upon an Anonymous Fan spoof. (If you haven’t seen it, it is a very funny spoof about SB’s self-help group ) I still would ship it! I absolutely want Cruella beause just think of what their costume designer, who’s already won awards, would do with it!
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I read your question that you put forward in the CaptainSwan thread and responses. I find it so interesting that we all interpret things so differently. I wanted to reply with my interpretation of the echo caves but didn’t want to invade the cs thread, but i’ll stick it here ;p
Emma tells Neal that his presence causes her pain and makes it harder for her to move on, which is a choice she has made. She said she can’t change her feelings. And Neal’s response “I’ll never stop fighting for you. Never” – is essentially ignoring that choice, and over-riding her feelings.
I didn’t pick up on her saying she wanted to move on. Just that it would be a lot easier to do so than facing the pain. If Emma had said I don’t love you, then I would agree that saying I will fight for you would be ignoring her choice but she never. She began by saying ‘I love you and I probably always will’. A few days previously they both declared their love for each other when Neal fell through the portal. Neal is human and feared rejection. We all make mistakes. He acknowledges that he should of came and found Emma when the curse broke but I’m happy he is going to put up a fight for her now!
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