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There’s a big difference between understanding and condoning. I understand why Rumple did it, I do not condone it, and IMO, neither would Neal. He would have said, “yes, you can be mad that this woman led me to my death and locked you up for a year and made you crazy, but you don’t get to take that into your hands and kill a defenseless woman.” I will just agree to disagree on being too harsh with Rumple. Victims of abuse and abandonment don’t owe their victimizes anything “fair” no matter how much they may love them.
Ok, maybe Neal wouldn’t have agreed with what Rumple did, but I think he would have forgiven him in the long run. I just can’t be angry with Rumple for wanting to avenge his son’s death. Now the lying and going behind everyone’s back…yeah, that I’m not thrilled with.
I guess we see Rumple’s actions differently. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t really see Neal as abused. Rumple made some very poor choices, but none that I saw as outright abuse towards Bae. He immediately regretted letting Bae go through the portal, a choice Rumple made in a instant of fear both of being in a world without power and going to an unknown land knowing what happened the last time- Bae felt abandoned because he never knew the whole story. We also had a big reconciliation at the end of the Neverland arc. I would be sad if Neal had backtracked and given up on Rumple again. But all of this is moot anyway- Neal is gone.
Actually, yes, there would have been blood on her hands. She saw Marian in distress and turned around and walked away. Then she came back. Had she not come back, she would have been guilty leaving a crime in progress.
Okay, you’re right, there would have been some guilt there, but it still isn’t quite as bad as actually being the murderer. At any rate, I still think it was an interesting turn of events. I’m curious to see how everything plays out, and my curiosity far out weighs any concerns with Regina’s character.
[adrotate group="5"]Emma didn’t say that, though. You were implying that Emma took Pan out there for the sole purpose of killing him. She was already suspicious that something was wrong, hence taking the box out to the town line in the first place. She knew something was off with Henry.
Actually…yeah, that’s exactly why they took Pan over the line- to kill him. That’s how she got Mr. Gold to help them- the promise to end Pan once and for all. She was absolutely planning to kill him until she realized something was off about him. There was a whole conversation about how talking wasn’t going to work. She thought Pan was doing things from inside the box- it didn’t occur to her that they’d been switched.
Ok, maybe Neal wouldn’t have agreed with what Rumple did, but I think he would have forgiven him in the long run.
I don’t disagree but that speaks to Neal as a person not Rumple’s actions.
I guess we see Rumple’s actions differently. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t really see Neal as abused.
I don’t think your naive but I also don’t know you outside of the past 2ish years on an internet forum so what I say next is not against you but a personal truth that help you understand where I’m coming from. As someone who was mentally and emotionally abused by an ex (who screwed me up pretty bad) and abandoned by my dad, I will tell you: I don’t owe either of them crap and any treatment of them by me does not need to be “fair.”
Rumple made some very poor choices, but none that I saw as outright abuse towards Bae.
Abuse is not just fists and punches. Emotional and mental abuse is a thing. Prior to becoming the Dark One, Rumple was a fantastic father. And then he changed. He was keeping Bae locked up (episode 304), being overly protective to the point of possessiveness, murdering people to Bae’s horror. Had social services been a thing, Bealfire would have been whisked away in a heartbeat.
And I say this as someone who has been defending Rumple for years and still considers him to be my favorite character.
Bae felt abandoned because he never knew the whole story.
This comes across as victim blaming, IMO. It’s Rumple’s fault that Bae didn’t know the whole story. Also, abandonment is abandonment is abandonment. I don’t care if Pan shows up in S5 with a sob story of how he was also abandoned, it doesn’t change the fact that Malcolm let go of Rumple, and it doesn’t change the fact that Rumple let go of Bae. It is abandonment in the victims eyes, and that’s what matters.
We also had a big reconciliation at the end of the Neverland arc.
By big reconcillation do you mean a 30 second hug on a dock and the little to no conversation afterwards?
That was a nice moment but that does not in any way shape or form make up for years (200+ years) of feeling abandoned and unloved. Not even remotely.
I would be sad if Neal had backtracked and given up on Rumple again.
But it doesn’t make you sad that Rumple backtraced and killed a woman and then lied to his fiancee/wife/ TL about it?
But all of this is moot anyway- Neal is gone
I don’t consider it moot. A and E told us that Neal was killed for story reasons and that his death will play a part in the emotional development of characters and the story line. Now whether or not I believe anything they say is a different subject altogether. But Neal being gone does not render these conversations moot just like Bae being missing from the action in S1 rendered speculation about Rumple as a character or the mythology of the show moot.
Okay, you’re right, there would have been some guilt there, but it still isn’t quite as bad as actually being the murderer
Ah, moral relativism. so then who is more guilty: the snowman who may or may not have higher brain function? Regina who wanted to walk away? Or Elsa who created the thing in the first place?
I’m curious to see how everything plays out, and my curiosity far out weighs any concerns with Regina’s character.
That’s fine. It’s not that I’m not curious, though my curiosity is more of a morbid “lord, where will this go now,” variety. But, IMO, character on a show like this is always cause for concern. We’re not just invested in the storyline, we’re invested in the characters themselves and that includes any and all progress or regress, hence why we’ve been debating for 6 pages now.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Emma didn’t say that, though. You were implying that Emma took Pan out there for the sole purpose of killing him. She was already suspicious that something was wrong, hence taking the box out to the town line in the first place. She knew something was off with Henry.
Actually…yeah, that’s exactly why they took Pan over the line- to kill him. That’s how she got Mr. Gold to help them- the promise to end Pan once and for all. She was absolutely planning to kill him until she realized something was off about him. There was a whole conversation about how talking wasn’t going to work. She thought Pan was doing things from inside the box- it didn’t occur to her that they’d been switched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFUbfl1wKo
I went and looked up the scene. I apologize for getting that wrong (I am human, afterall). Yes, it is heavily implied that Emma would take him out the town line and shoot him, though never explicitly stated.
ETA: however, the shadow had just actually killed a person…still, they should have done a trial.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t think your naive but I also don’t know you outside of the past 2ish years on an internet forum so what I say next is not against you but a personal truth that help you understand where I’m coming from. As someone who was mentally and emotionally abused by an ex (who screwed me up pretty bad) and abandoned by my dad, I will tell you: I don’t owe either of them crap and any treatment of them by me does not need to be “fair.”
Ok, point- I don’t have any personal experience to relate to on that front.
Abuse is not just fists and punches. Emotional and mental abuse is a thing. Prior to becoming the Dark One, Rumple was a fantastic father. And then he changed. He was keeping Bae locked up (episode 304), being overly protective to the point of possessiveness, murdering people to Bae’s horror. Had social services been a thing, Bealfire would have been whisked away in a heartbeat. And I say this as someone who has been defending Rumple for years and still considers him to be my favorite character.
I’m aware abuse can be emotional too, but as I’ve said, I have never experienced anything along those lines. I guess I’m a bit like Belle- maybe way more forgiving than I ought to be. I’m grateful I haven’t been in such a situation as I probably wouldn’t have come out of it very well. To be honest, I actually fear I’ll get myself in trouble one day from ignoring signs of danger and not seeking help because I want to give people the benefit of the doubt.
This comes across as victim blaming, IMO. It’s Rumple’s fault that Bae didn’t know the whole story. Also, abandonment is abandonment is abandonment. I don’t care if Pan shows up in S5 with a sob story of how he was also abandoned, it doesn’t change the fact that Malcolm let go of Rumple, and it doesn’t change the fact that Rumple let go of Bae. It is abandonment in the victims eyes, and that’s what matters.
Not so much victim blaming as trying to see things from everyone’s perspective. It’s something I tend to do for better or for worse.
By big reconcillation do you mean a 30 second hug on a dock and the little to no conversation afterwards? That was a nice moment but that does not in any way shape or form make up for years (200+ years) of feeling abandoned and unloved. Not even remotely.
I still think it should be worth *something*- and Emma too felt abandoned and unloved for most of her life.
But it doesn’t make you sad that Rumple backtraced and killed a woman and then lied to his fiancee/wife/ TL about it?
I didn’t mean I thought he should have done what he did- I don’t. I wasn’t at all happy with what he did towards Belle. But again, it’s a story I’d like to see the rest of.
I don’t consider it moot. A and E told us that Neal was killed for story reasons and that his death will play a part in the emotional development of characters and the story line. Now whether or not I believe anything they say is a different subject altogether. But Neal being gone does not render these conversations moot just like Bae being missing from the action in S1 rendered speculation about Rumple as a character or the mythology of the show moot.
Ok, maybe moot wasn’t quite the right word. I just meant in regards to how he would have reacted to what Rumple did. I don’t mean Neal should never be mentioned again or have an impact on the rest of the story. We shall see where they go from here.
Ah, moral relativism. so then who is more guilty: the snowman who may or may not have higher brain function? Regina who wanted to walk away? Or Elsa who created the thing in the first place?
I think it was all circumstantial. No one is completely at fault here. Elsa created the snow monster out of fear to protect herself. Regina just happened to poof in while it was there. The snow monster was only following it’s programming, so to speak.
That’s fine. It’s not that I’m not curious, though my curiosity is more of a morbid “lord, where will this go now,” variety. But, IMO, character on a show like this is always cause for concern. We’re not just invested in the storyline, we’re invested in the characters themselves and that includes any and all progress or regress, hence why we’ve been debating for 6 pages now.
People fascinate me- both in real life and in fiction. I don’t have a problem with how Regina is depicted. It doesn’t feel unrealistic to me which is why I’m not that concerned. Others disagree.
Is there anything on the show recently that you still really like? I’d love to see you write a passage about something you’re still happy with. Is morbid curiosity the only reason you watch the show now or is there enough good for you to balance the bad?
And hey- I know we’ve been going on and on about this…no hard feelings, right? Just a friendly debate between Oncers?
I still think it should be worth *something*- and Emma too felt abandoned and unloved for most of her life.
I didn’t say it wasn’t worth something; that happens to be one of my favorite moments from S3A. But it does not negate the emotional abuse Neal suffered and the fact that they killed him before exploring that relationship further cheapens what abuse and abandonment victims go through.
Re Emma: and all it took was one 2 hour movie like event for her to be totes okay after year of feeling unloved and abandoned. Again, it cheapens what victims of this go through. It’s probably the single biggest problem on ONCE: they short change just about ALL the emotional development in favor of big myth, big action, big villain. Shiny Toy Syndrome…it’s a thing.
I think it was all circumstantial. No one is completely at fault here. Elsa created the snow monster out of fear to protect herself. Regina just happened to poof in while it was there. The snow monster was only following it’s programming, so to speak.
All the blame, certainly not. But there is blame to go around, just like in the Snow/Regina/Cora/Rumple situation of S2. I recall a very similar debate after The Miller’s Daughter.
People fascinate me- both in real life and in fiction. I don’t have a problem with how Regina is depicted. It doesn’t feel unrealistic to me which is why I’m not that concerned. Others disagree.
My issue is not in how Regina is depicted so much as the almost bipolar nature of her character development and it stems from the idea that villainy is sexy and buzzworthy, so ONCE keep her and Rumple (and to a lesser extent Hook) as close to that line as possible.
Is there anything on the show recently that you still really like? I’d love to see you write a passage about something you’re still happy with. Is morbid curiosity the only reason you watch the show now or is there enough good for you to balance the bad?
I will answer your question but first I want to express why this passage irks me since it’s something akin to what was said many pages ago that started us down this rabbit hole. I do not have to qualify why I watch a show to anyone. On the one hand, it’s actually tied to my profession as TV reviewer for a website. But much more broadly that that, I cannot emphasize enough what @Schandalich was saying back several pages. I don’t ask for much when it comes to ONCE, but what I am asking for they fail to deliver and that sucks. But there is some stupid, naive, childish part of me that has to believe that a show that I feel like I have given metaphorical life blood to did not turn into what it has become. Surely–SURELY–they are going to turn it around. I have defended this show passionately in the past. When everyone was tearing down A and E for S2, I went toe to toe with those people and called them out on it. But I cannot apologize for it anymore. The cracks and the flaws are apparent and maybe I should keep with our Frozen theme and just “let it go” but it goes against what I’ve been taught as a critical reader and thinker. This isn’t just a TV show; if it were, we would flip off our sets at 9pm on Sunday and be content to wait until next week. If was I just supposed to sit back and enjoy and not actively participate, I wouldn’t be on this site discussing this show.
There’s a tendency to believe that to be a good fan you have love and praise or at least feel that the good outweighs the bad. I find this to be a false dichotomy. I criticize because this show has basically been one of the largest parts of my existence for 4 years now and it let me down in ways that I didn’t even know a TV show could do. And it goes beyond Neal’s death… to wonky character development, lightening fast relationships both romantic and non-romantic, plot holes, plot devices galore, action for the sake of action, emotional shortchanges, and some seriously questionable morals all while fraudulently (IMO) presenting itself as a show about hope and family.
Am I bad fan? Maybe to some people I am. But, in my defense: I am still here probably 15-17 hours a day. I still post 90-95% of the stuff on this site. I still do the podcast. I still review professionally and personally. I (and Matt) am still the first line of defense anytime a fight occurs. I’ve been debating with you now for how many pages? I invested huge quantities of myself into this show and yeah, that gives me the right to critique just like it gives others the right to praise. And, outside of what has been happening here right now, the majority of my less than salient criticisms go in one very specific place that is a safe haven.
What do I still like/love? Even though I’m very critical, Rumple is still my favorite character and I need him to come out of this relatively unscathed. Rumbelle is still one of my top ‘ships in fandom. I will always be a Neal and SF girl. I am still somewhat interested to see where Emma ends up and if the biggest theory I’ve had since Day 1 will comes to pass. I have some small amount of hope that they won’t let Henry forget his father. I have tiny interest in seeing if they can bring Snow and Charming back to the glory days. I still theorize, if less than back in the day. I still converse with everyone on all the topics we have. This summer we did a character analysis that I planned and somewhat directed. We had a very interesting thread on love and romance that I started. I’m proofreading and helping @Obisgirls’ TL meta. I am still somehow invested because some part of me can’t imagine life without ONCE even if I’m critical, cynical, bitter, and sometimes find myself disliking more than I like. What can I say? To quote Walt Whitman, “I am large, and I contain multitudes”
The biggest thing is this: my friends. I have made about 10 friends through this site that I can’t live without. Seriously, we’re disgustingly co-dependent on each other. And we’re in this together and that kinda makes it “better”.
And hey- I know we’ve been going on and on about this…no hard feelings, right? Just a friendly debate between Oncers?
Of course no hard feelings. I am not interested in changing other people’s minds about ONCE but the dissatisfaction about the show needs to be given as much weight as the satisfaction.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I guess it just comes down to me being far less critical towards fiction than you are. You did once agree with me that it was just a tv show though. I enjoy discussing the show- I’ve made bunches of friends from it too. Being part of a fandom can be really fun! But it can also be really draining if everyone is always talking about what they *don’t* like. For me, it’s an escape. If it’s causing me stress, it’s not an escape anymore.
I wasn’t asking you to justify why you watch it. I’m sorry if it came across that way. You’ve been so critical of the show lately, I just wanted to hear some positivity from you! I was curious that’s all- of course you can watch and participate in the forms for whatever reason you want.
You did once agree with me that it was just a tv show though.
This is hard to put into words, because it is and it isn’t. Strictly speaking, it is just a TV show in that it’s a thing that I watch on TV and that when all is said and done will have had very little long lasting impact on my life, more than likely. But it’s still a piece of text to analyze and it’s still something that I’ve invested time in. And that makes it more. It’s the same with any fandom. And I know it’s more than just a TV show to you as well–you dress up, you go to Comic Cons, you’re here. If it was “just a TV show” none of those things would be happening.
But it can also be really draining if everyone is always talking about what they *don’t* like.
It can also be really draining when people praise it while simultaneously ignoring, either willfully or not, the actual problems that exist with that piece of fandom.
For me, it’s an escape. If it’s causing me stress, it’s not an escape anymore.
I don’t believe in TV as escapism, at least not fully. All TV is grounded in something that needs to be accessible and relatable and understandable. If it’s doing it’s job then it should be stressful because it’s getting you to think.
You’ve been so critical of the show lately, I just wanted to hear some positivity from you!
Ok, but…why? Why does it matter that I’m negative and critical. I’m not the only one. Not by a long shot. It’s just the others who feel the same have more or less gone into hiding. And…my first post on this topic was saying “heres what I liked, here’s what I didn’t like.” It wasn’t just me bashing every single little thing.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"You’re just the one I’ve noticed the most, that’s all, and you were the one interacting with me on here. You’re right, though, you aren’t the only one, and you did have both likes and dislikes in your post. I’m sorry to have come across as jumping on you.
I wanted to hear you be positive because I miss the days when you were. I feel as if we used to be on the same page and now we are not.
I’ve pulled away from the fandom a lot recently because some of the criticism has reached the point that it depresses me. Fangirling with friends is much more fun than venting with friends.
I guess I’m a bit like Belle- maybe way more forgiving than I ought to be.
Believe it or not, (because just about everything RG said in this thread, or says in any thread these days has me nodding my head thinking, “PREACH IT SISTER”), I’m the same.
Years ago a friend was drawing up my birth chart for me, calculating everything and looking up her text books, and every now and then she’d write something down and just shake her head and laugh because it was so me. One of those things was that I give people the benefit of the doubt way too easily, give them far more chances than they deserve. It hadn’t really occurred to me before then, but it’s totally what I do. At that point in time it was my ex-husband, who had left me in quite an insensitive way, (nothing says “see ya later” like an email from interstate on the eve on the 10th anniversary of the day you met, and then refusing to take my calls after the fact), but I didn’t rage about him to anyone, I didn’t even really badmouth him, (even though I would have been justified to do so), because what if by chance things somehow turned around, and that couldn’t happen if I’d talked all the smack about him. Nope, I just went on quietly wearing my wedding rings and hoping for some sorta miracle. And that doesn’t mean that I wasn’t raging and destroyed inside, but part of me still refused to give up on it all because I always give people all the chances, even when they may not really deserve it. A day came when I accidentally whacked the knuckle of my ring finger (and only my ring finger) on a door frame and had to yank the rings off immediately before it swelled up, (whacked it so hard I couldn’t straighten that finger for a few years after). It was quite clearly some force of the universe telling me, “Take the freaking rings off already!” But because I’m me, I just started wearing them on my other hand instead, and did so until he actually filed for divorce (here you have to be separated for a whole year before either party can file for divorce).
With this show, I got involved in a relationship with it, and believed in it, and we had some seriously fun and inspirational times together. The “ring I exchanged” with it is still on my finger, and maybe the “divorce” moment will be when the show ends and until then I’ll keep holding out for some sorta miracle, giving the showrunners neverending chances to win me back. So in that sense I guess I haven’t learned my lesson, but hey, it’s just how I roll.
But this time it’s not just me feeling heartbroken, there are many of us (not just on this forum) who feel the same sense of betrayal in the relationship, and perhaps that’s why I can call it out and vent and rage about it this time around, because all of us are like a support system for each other and it’s comforting to know that we’re not alone, and letting it out is better than keeping it in and letting it fester. Not all of us are at the same place, some of us are still watching, some of us aren’t watching but still haven’t disconnected completely, others just dropped the show like a hot potato and want nothing more to do with it. Everyone deals with relationship problems differently. And everyone has different aspects of a relationship that they prioritise, different limits, different opinions of what’s tolerable and what isn’t. Each of us, for better or worse, has their own unique relationship with the show, and has the right to react to it however we see fit, even if unfortunately it’s in a negative way.
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