Are You Real? HBO's "Westworld"

[thedarkonedearie]

I found this episode confusing.  I’m still intrigued but I was definitely confused.  I think it’s just because they aren’t telling us anything.  Like I have no idea what the MiB is doing.  Now he wants to free these robots?  Why?  And what is Ford building?  What are his motivations?  And what’s up with Logan?  What did that prisoner say to him exactly?  I guess I don’t understand what everyone’s motivations are so I’m confused as to what’s actually going on.  It could be the show keeping everything close to the chest but the only thing I really understand at this point is that Dolores and Maeve are starting to remember things and now Dolores and the MiB want to find the center of the maze.

[RumplesGirl]

I can take some stabs in the dark about motivation.

Ford: I think this is all about control. Every episode so far has brought up the Board that oversees Westworld and it’s pretty clear he does not have a good relationship with them (I suspect they are of the fat-lazy-cat variety and care more for profit than they do for whatever Ford’s original intentions were in creating the park, like tackling and unlocking human consciousness). He obviously has a huge ego–one that sees himself as a God in his own world, a God that is now being trodden upon by said Board. His new storyline and what he’s building will establish him as the sole ruler of Westworld, the Board be damned.

The Man in Black: I actually think he’s the most honest of all the characters. It’s a nihilistic type of honesty, but it’s honesty. He’s bored. He’s read the same book day after day for 30 years; he k knows every sub plot, every twist and turn, except the ultimate last. It’s like…okay, have you ever a classic mystery novel? Think Agatha Christie. The reveal of the murderer and their entire explanation happens in one swell swoop typically at the very very end. What if you had a book like that but the last page, the one that revealed the murderer and why he did everything he did, was missing? Wouldn’t it drive you somewhat nuts? (There’s a great episode of MASH that actually follows this exact plotline come to think about it.) The MiB doesn’t even try to hide what he’s after or how different he is from the rest of the world. He straight up tells Hector that he, Hector, is “market tested” and that’s why Hector exists. The MiB also goes around telling people that they are prisoners and he’s trying to find freedom. I don’t think he cares about them, but is so bored and nihilistic that he’s looking for the only escape left and if it means the Hosts get freed then so be it. (sidenote but what does freedom actually mean here? The more I think about it, the more I think that the Maze and freedom aren’t literal but figurative. The Maze is more about unlocking human consciousness and freedom is less about leaving the Park–we know the guests can leave after all–and more about freedom from something less tangible)

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[nevermore]

s anyone else wondering about the time frame? When are she and Bernard having these conversations? She woke up back with William and Logan.

Yes. In fact, it is unclear to me whether all the events taking place are happening at the same time. There’s reason to think that the MiB story might not be contemporaneous to the other stories, because there are some subtle difference –like the logo and stuff.

Anyway, here are a couple of reactions.

– @RG — the gods theme is on the nose, you’re so right. Of course, this idea of turning the “otherworldy” beings into deities isn’t a new idea in science fiction, this is all over the place, especially with recent Avengers stuff. But… here’s the thing I am confused about. Is, lets call it, ‘shade worship’ an organically emergent religion among the cyborgs that stand in for First Nations, or is it part of their script? And if so, is the act of writing service workers into the script as deities a subversive move, or a protective one? And if it actually isn’t written in, all part of the new narrative being pitched by what’s his face, then speaking of metaphorical language, if religion isn’t a sign of self-awareness and symbolic thinking, I don’t know what is! So this seems like a really provocative little question that the show leaves hanging.

-Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins are a pleasure to watch. Terrifying to see the benevolent, slightly cookie Dr Ford suddenly turn into a steely edged tyrant, but also kind of amazing and awesome. Like, you want to root for him because he’s essentially telling off the corporation(s) that think they run the show that really, they don’t, and not in the blunt force trauma of the lone hero-scientist standing up to Big Money, but as this ultimate manipulator behind the scenes. It’s like watching campy Dr. Van Helsing with a big side helping of Hannibal Lecter. Similarly, Ed Harris’s MiB is a lot more ambiguous than we originally thought, and it take virtuosity to make the literally “black hat” character take on much more nuance.

– Nihilism. This seems to be a big theme for this time around. Dolores, Maeve, and, to an extent, Hector are all skirting around freshly-found nihilism. Maeve is the most explicit one on this path. Dolores is tittering on the brink. And Hector’s a programmed nihilist (“this whole thing is bound to end badly”) but then stumbles into “real” nihilism, when his world potentially bottoms out as a result of getting caught up in Maeve’s journey. William and Logan seem on the same sort of track. Logan’s take is that “this is all a game, so who cares,” while William seems appalled by this — his sense is that morals should somehow carry over across contexts.

[RumplesGirl]

Is, lets call it, ‘shade worship’ an organically emergent religion among the cyborgs that stand in for First Nations, or is it part of their script?

YES.

I was wondering the same thing because when Hector describes what a Shade is–someone who walks between worlds–I thought, “oh well the Native religions actually have those types of myths.” So is it historically accurate with the benefit of making the Park Workers the gods OR was it organic because of past glitches or times when the Hosts have gained consciousness.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[hjbau]

I was thinking William was the board member.

I thought it was interesting that there was a part of the park that wasn’t being used, as in maybe the guests become bored of it, where Dr Ford met with that woman and then they just tore it down. I also thought it was interesting how the workers sent in the cavalry to take care of the violence happening in the town because a family was coming in. We are seeing so much of the violence and horror of what happens in this world, that to see these mundane things and kid friendly things was interesting to me.

I keep wondering if the Man in Black is an actual real person. In this episode we saw a guest who knew him from the outside world, but is that real?

Dr Ford became much more interesting in this episode, every time they show him, you just know there is more going on there. I am looking forward to seeing what he is building.

 

[RumplesGirl]

I thought it was interesting that there was a part of the park that wasn’t being used, as in maybe the guests become bored of it, where Dr Ford met with that woman and then they just tore it down.

Yes this is interesting as well. I have been trying to put myself in the mind of amusement parks and how they operate. When a ride is being torn down or revamped, that section of the park does get shut down. You can’t just wander around. The fact that there are hosts still there and that a restaurant is still open is equally fascinating. It either suggests that Dr. Ford really does see the Hosts as robots (why move them out of a area of the park that won’t be visited) OR that he’s so egotistical that he expects the reality to conform to his expectations (a god visiting Eden must have all the players in their proper places) even if it accomplishes no goal except to swell his already large ego.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[nevermore]

It either suggests that Dr. Ford really does see the Hosts as robots (why move them out of a area of the park that won’t be visited) OR that he’s so egotistical that he expects the reality to conform to his expectations (a god visiting Eden must have all the players in their proper places) even if it accomplishes no goal except to swell his already large ego.

I am inclined to think that there’s more to Ford than a megalomaniacal God complex. It feels like he’s planning something massive – not just a new part of a narrative, but something actually ontologically threatening (though to whom, I don’t know) and that he’s arranging the different pieces on the board to make it all line up just so.

I actually have a theory that he’s an unreliable narrator when it comes to Albert. I also wonder if maybe they both were after the same thing — engineering AI sentience. But disagreed on method and ethics.

[RumplesGirl]

I actually have a theory that he’s an unreliable narrator when it comes to Albert. I also wonder if maybe they both were after the same thing — engineering AI sentience. But disagreed on method and ethics.

I agree. And I think the show is pushing this idea with something you brought up a page or so back–during the flashback when Dr. Ford was telling his story, it was hard to tell which one was Dr. Ford and which one was Albert. The guy looking at the Host certainly looked like Anthony Hopkins younger self but…his reaction to the newly born Host was not what I’d associate with Dr. Ford now.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

1×05 Thoughts

I have a lot of questions and not enough answers. Westworld does a fabulous job at creating mystery but so far it’s lacking in the “solving the mystery” department. Now, that can be a good thing because the mystery is multifacted, layered, and less about an actual mystery and more about a philosophical pondering on existence and consciousness but at the same time, there’s only so many times you can add questions on top of questions and keep expecting me to follow you down this rabbit hole.

I think there might be…too many stories right now. The main ones are Dolores and her awakening/unraveling; Dr Ford and his increasingly menacing God complex; the Man in Black fulfilling a hole in the narrative as a suitable antagonist while trying to discover the answer to his own journey into selfhood; and the story of Arnold and the parks past which will, I suppose, tie all the other stories together. But along the way we get Teddy, William, Logan, Mauve, the politics of the park staff, and several park-run stories like Wyatt, the Confederados, the new Black hat who set up William and Logan, ect. It’s a bit much because the story needs to be a bit tighter and not go down tracks that only confuse me more.

I’m not trying to be harsh because the stuff that’s good–the stuff that stays within the bigger stories–is GOSH DARN GOOD GUYS. The Dr. Ford and Man in Black meeting was excellent and I like that their relationship isn’t actually amicable. There’s a real tension there, especially since the MiB knows all about Arnold and his attempt to destroy the Park! Didn’t see that one coming at all. Likewise, Dolores’s story about unraveling into the more cold Host (who has all the memories and updates) vs Dolores the more human side is equally fascinating. I love how I can’t quit tell which “version” of her is actually at work. Scared, crying Dolores who kisses William is more the evolving semi human girl, but seconds before she was a gun toting heroine who “imagined a story where I wasn’t the damsel” (favorite line of the night!)

Other thoughts for now

–This show is stunning to just look at. The brothel scene with William, Logan and Dolores was like something out of a Renaissance painting depicting the lowest bowls of Hell.

–The same little boy Dr Ford ran into appears to the MiB. Coincidence? Probably not.

–Arnold sought consciousness but then wanted to destroy his park? Was it because he felt like he had enslaved a people OR did Dr. Ford lie to us about what Arnold wanted and it was really him who sought these higher ideals.

–Laser focused satellite. No idea what that even means.

–Home stretch! 5 episodes to go.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[runaroundmacy]

It’s been a million years since I’ve posted here but @rumplesgirl finally convinced me to join in on the fun. I won’t write a recap, and my thoughts are really jumbled since I haven’t done a rewatch yet, but I want to try and go over a few things I’ve been thinking over. The first of which, and I’ve been thinking about this for a while, is that we’re not seeing a linear timeline. Also I know RG mentioned the BIG internet throry I told her regarding William = the Man in Black, so I’ve been keeping this in the back of my head as I watch while trying to not let it influence my interpretation.

I’ve been toying around with the idea that the scenes with Dolores, William, and Logan are happening in the past, and will show us the events leading up to the big malfunction 30 years ago (hence why I’ve been trying to rewatch before I posted). Some things I noticed from this episode were:

–  how violent the hosts were towards Logan, when in the pilot, it was mentioned over and over again that “they wouldn’t hurt a living thing”. One of them almost kills Logan, and then later, a group of them take him out back to beat him up. Either Logan is a host, or something happens to him that forces the company to enact some heavy safety protocol towards other guests considering how firmly they established L&W’s standing in society (and connection to “almost owning” WestWorld).

– Logan and William have a conversation in passing about what happened to Arnold (who apparently killed himself!?) and it seems like it didn’t necessarily happen that long ago. It seems like a fairly recent event they’re discussing.

– Dolores has basically been out of her loop for days, choosing her own adventure, even killing other hosts, which we’ve never seen before. From previous episodes, it has been made clear that hosts are on a loop, reliving the same day over and over again, with no memory of the day before regardless of the events (and yes, some are waking up but I think we’ll save that for later).

– UM Lawrence!? So obviously this was a BIG reveal that this is a different timeline, considering how minutes before we’d seen the MIB basically drain his blood and leave him for the workers to retrieve, fix, and put back in the field. So either they work very, very quickly, or we’re seeing a past storyline Lawrence was involved in. This was also the same town that the MIB took him to find his “wife and daughter”.

I think that this past timeline will show us what happened (most like to Logan) to influence the changes we see in the park today. Hosts live in constant loops that they can’t swerve from with limited timelines, the very organized storylines versus organic ones Logan and Billy are involved in, the very firm programming to not hurt a living thing, and the deleting of memories from previous events. Dolores is obviously a pretty big part of the puzzle, seeing as she’s the last one standing from Arnolds time, and as we’ve seen, has a lot more to her than she’s letting on. I wonder if Ford created Teddy and gave him a backstory to try and keep her in line because he knew Arnold had programmed her with more “answers”?

I have a million more thoughts to this but I need to rewatch again to put it all together more coherently. I have lots of notes that I’m not even referencing at all LOL. But so far I’m loving this show, and I look forward to all the pieces being put on the table.

Keeper of the Cheshire Cat’s smile, Baelfire’s sword, Snow’s backpack, Robin Hood’s bow, Ariel’s purse, Ariel’s smile, Henry’s heart, Belle’s shoe collection

[Author]

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