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Tagged: Captain Hook, Killian Jones
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PriceofMagic.
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December 30, 2013 at 11:20 am #234396
obisgirl
ParticipantI wrote a thing.
[adrotate group="5"]January 6, 2014 at 7:23 pm #235599PriceofMagic
ParticipantI was talking with Jenna_B and she wondered what it would be like if Hook weren’t a pirate and therefore coming onto the scene without pirate stereotypes.
One question I would like to ask is: would the story still play out the same as it has done, minus the pirate thing, so Milah still runs off with Hook, or is it a case of, because Hook wasn’t a pirate, he never met Milah?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixJanuary 6, 2014 at 7:31 pm #235603RumplesGirl
KeymasterI was talking with Jenna_B and she wondered what it would be like if Hook weren’t a pirate and therefore coming onto the scene without pirate stereotypes. One question I would like to ask is: would the story still play out the same as it has done, minus the pirate thing, so Milah still runs off with Hook, or is it a case of, because Hook wasn’t a pirate, he never met Milah?
that’s a really great question.
I for one have always believed that Pan played a much larger part in the events we’ve seen than we actually got on screen. Think about it: if Pan had never told Liam and Kilian about the dreamshade (that it was dangerous), the brothers would have collected it, gone home, given it to their king. Killian may never have become disillusioned and loss hope (his words) thus turned pirate. And then he never would have met Milah in a bar and thus set events into motion. I think many of our characters are victims of fate (who is sometimes Peter Pan but I suspect there is someone else at play)
Hook has said that Milah was both his first and his true love (In the Name of the Brother for that last bit) so if fate is the one constant on this show then somehow Milah and Hook would have met even if he wasn’t pirate. BUT would Milah have had the same attraction to Hook if he was just Navy Officer Jones? He’s no where near as rougeish as the Naval officer and Milah seemed drawn to that side of him–drinking and gambling, something Killian Jones was loathe to do.
I think I just talked myself in circles. LOL.
In short: they would have still met as they were fated to do, but Milah wouldn’t have had the same draw to Navy Officer Killian as she did with Pirate Killian. (however, her life with Rumple was so “miserable”) she may have run off with him anyway as an escape.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"January 6, 2014 at 8:35 pm #235612Jenna_B
ParticipantI tend to agree with you @RumplesGirl. There is some kind of fate playing into events with all of these characters; I think Pan was a big part of it, but I’d like to see that it was maybe even a bigger picture and even PAN was getting played. Serve him right…
In regard to Hook — first, I think he was a lot more talk than action when it came to being a pirate. He could be a jerk when he was drunk, but then what guy (or girl) can’t be? I think comments like “I’ve had many men’s wives” is a pile of hooey, frankly. While I believe once you decide you can change yourself, the change can happen quickly, I also believe that being a “pirate,” the exact opposite of a naval officer, is an excellent way to build walls around yourself and forget the pain you feel – like losing your brother on a mission you would never have agreed to go on had you known it’s true purpose in the first place.
The whole reason his S3 arc works for me is because I think until now, he’s never really known his true self — he’s no longer the wide eyed, innocent naval officer, and for the most part, kinda makes a crappy pirate. The real Killian Jones lies somewhere in between. He’s not becoming the man he once was – he was pretty much just a boy when he lost his brother. He’s becoming the man he wants to be – and for him, that’s a man of honor.
Now, bring Milah back in. First love is tricky – it feels like true love. Until you’ve moved on and experienced another love, you may honestly believe that person is your One True Love. But does that actually make them your One True Love? Maybe. Maybe not. Milah was looking for a way out of her marriage. What better than a pirate, who comes in acting larger than life, telling (probably exaggerated) stories about life at sea, who can literally take you away from your life? I think both Milah and Hook were swept away in a love that worked because of the roles they were playing, not the people they really were.
Would Killain – not Hook – and Milah work? I honestly don’t think so. What on earth do they have in common? He’s not going to whisk her off her feet. He’s not going to set sail and go off on crazy adventures. He’s not going to literally take her away from her life. He’s probably going to meet a mother, who yes, may be in a loveless marriage, but ‘for the sake of the boy,’ remind her that Bae is priority.
January 7, 2014 at 12:57 am #235652Phee
ParticipantI for one have always believed that Pan played a much larger part in the events we’ve seen than we actually got on screen. Think about it: if Pan had never told Liam and Kilian about the dreamshade (that it was dangerous), the brothers would have collected it, gone home, given it to their king. Killian may never have become disillusioned and loss hope (his words) thus turned pirate.
He still may have turned against the King. We know that Killian didn’t approve of what the King could have done with the poison, so if they’d taken the dreamshade back, (being unaware that it was poison because the Liam incident didn’t happen), the King had used it to kill 1000s of people, Killian would have been just as angry at the King, and also angry at himself for having played a part in his getting the poison. Same situation as what led to him becoming a pirate, just on a grander scale in the sense that there would be 1000s of deaths he feels some responsibility for, instead of just one person in his brother, (Pan told him he’d goaded his brother into doing it, so Killian partially blamed himself for what happened to Liam).
So fate had probably damned Killian Jones to turn dark one way or the other, which means he was fated to be the man he was when he met Milah, which means she was fated to be attracted to him and leave Rumple for him.
The whole reason his S3 arc works for me is because I think until now, he’s never really known his true self — he’s no longer the wide eyed, innocent naval officer, and for the most part, kinda makes a crappy pirate. The real Killian Jones lies somewhere in between. He’s not becoming the man he once was – he was pretty much just a boy when he lost his brother. He’s becoming the man he wants to be – and for him, that’s a man of honor.
I think he’s known his true self, because there was a time when he had been that person, back in his Navy days. That sense of self has been buried for a long time, but the memory if it is still in there. Which is why his S3 arc hasn’t really been convincing to me yet, because it’s only been a week, and you don’t magically revert to being your better self after a couple centuries of being the complete opposite. I don’t want him insta-redeemed yet though, I want him to have a full and complex story arc, so if this is just the start of it, then that’s fine.
I don’t see his role in S3 so far as having been selfless hero type stuff. He’s trying to help people, but not necessarily for the right reasons, and we’ve seen similar things with Regina and Rumple as well.
Regina wanted Henry for herself, (she’d seen him as her shot at redemption ever since he came into her life, and was the only person in all the realms who believed in her), and did whatever she deemed necessary to try and make that happen. She even helped the Charmings out a time or two, but one or two incidents of helping didn’t instantly erase her whole history of bad deeds and therefore it didn’t get her what she wanted. Eventually, she accepted that doing whatever to get Henry all for herself wasn’t what she was supposed to be doing after all. She accepted that because of who she was, and what she’d done, her price for that was to be selfless for a change and let go of her obsessive grip on Henry. She eventually accepted that that thing she’d had her sights set on, having Henry for herself, wasn’t a thing she should have been fixated on after all.
Rumple wanted to reunite with Bae, and did a helluva lot of dodgy stuff to try and make that happen. Reuniting with his son was meant to be his redemption, because it would make up for having let him go, but when they were face to face, Rumple realised that it wasn’t that easy. Finding a way back to him wasn’t enough to erase all the bad deeds that came beforehand. Going to NL to help save Henry wasn’t enough to prove to Neal that he’d changed. Eventually, Rumple accepted that he’d have to do the brave and selfless thing. He did it in NL when he confronted Pan and ended up trapped in the Box, and he did it again when he sacrificed his own life to protect the others. He eventually accepted that that thing he’d had his sights on, his happy ending with his son, wasn’t a thing he should have been so fixated on after all.
The moral of the story in both of those cases is that you can’t achieve true redemption if you’re selfishly motivated. The attempts at good deeds along the way won’t pay off unless and until you surrender your grip, “let go and let God,” as they say.
Which brings me to how I see Hook’s story at the moment. He saved Charming’s life, which you can’t argue was a bad thing to do, because saving someone’s life if you’re able is a good thing to do. But what motivated him to do it? When Charming asked him that very question, why he’d saved him when there wasn’t anything in it for him personally, he responded with, “Oh, I didn’t do it for you, mate. ;-)” Helping to save Henry, he was motivated to turn his ship around in no small part due to remembering how things had ended with Bae, but then we got the scene in S3 where Charming flat out said that he knew Hook was there for Emma, which I find disappointing because I feel like it’s a major missed opportunity for them to have delved into the complexities of Hook and Neal’s relationship with each other, but I digress. So what we got when Hook denied being there in NL for selfish reasons was Charming saying point blank, “Please, you’re not here out of any nobility, you’re here for Emma,” and Hook’s expression confirmed that Emma was a major motivator for him.
I think a similar thing is happening at the end of 311. He’s there because they all need Emma back, and he’s helping out for the greater good, which is a good thing to do, but it’s not like he isn’t hoping for some personal gain out of Emma coming back as well, as evidenced by the kiss.
If they’re gonna follow the pattern they have with Rumple and Regina, Hook’s still got a journey of eventual letting go of selfish motivations ahead of him before he’s actually redeemed.
In the past, he made a snap decision to turn pirate and he’s been a pirate ever since, and like JennaB said, he’s not necessarily the most successful pirate there ever was. Then he made a snap decision to avenge Milah’s death and kill Rumple. That led to centuries of angst for him, and then he ended up dropping the revenge plot, and now Rumple’s dead (as far as they’re concerned) and it wasn’t by Hook’s hand, so that whole centuries long vendetta thing didn’t really pay off in a satisfying way for him. And now he’s made a snap decision, (he said himself it was the kiss that really did it, he’d always been attracted to her, but the kiss sealed the deal for him), that he loves Emma. Judging by his past actions, it’s in character for him to become fixated on an ideal.
Judging by his past actions, that attitude hasn’t made him a better man. If he ever wants to truly return to the man he was before his pirate days, he has to let go of the grip he’s had of feeling in control since the moment he turned pirate, (control that has its roots in how helpless and responsible he felt in the case of his brother’s death, he doesn’t just behave the way he does for the helluvit, it comes from a place of serious emotional pain).
I think the situation they’ve set up is for the purpose of leading him to a moment where he does let go of the control in the situation with Emma, because that’s the truly brave and selfless thing to do, just like Regina and Rumple before him. He’s still trying to force the issue with Emma. In NL he insisted he would win her heart. In SB he tried to manipulate that process by attempting to make her jealous. In NYC he took it upon himself to kiss her even though she didn’t know who he was.
If he’s successful in having Emma remember, and reuniting her with everyone, (safe to say that’s gonna happen), that will include her remembering her recent history with Neal and being near him again. I think this could be a big thing for Hook, because in bringing those two back together, (in the mere sense that they’ll be around each other again), it means he won’t have Emma all to himself, he’ll have to let go of the control a bit, and let whatever’s gonna happen happen. Being able to do that could be a vital piece of character development for him.
As someone who has always enjoyed Hook, I’ve been enjoying him less so in the recent eps, because I feel like on the surface of it, he’s being reduced to a one note character, which I find disappointing because I’ve always thought there’s much more depth to him, (and Colin is capable of portraying that depth in a compelling way, which we saw especially at the end of S2 with the Bae flashbacks). So I’ve done a lot of thinking about the character to try and see how this perceived one note-ness might be just a smaller part of his larger characterisation and story arc.
January 7, 2014 at 8:35 pm #235784Jenna_B
ParticipantOk, first I just want to say as a CSer, THANK YOU for the last few posts — I know it’s gotten a little tense during the hiatus but this is what I really like about this forum – we can have conversations about characters even when were on our different ‘ships – which I think makes watching the show even better. I know some of you are as hardcore CF as some of us are CS so it’s awesome to see some quality reflections on a character that can make us get… a little nutty? For lack of a better word? Do we have one of these for Nealfire? Cause I’d love more perspective on him.
Anywho, @Phee – excellent points. The arc has been a little too neat, I will give you that. But I think it’s just the beginning. If we don’t see some setbacks or failing with Hook, I’ll be very disappointed. As stated, what makes Rumple and Regina great characters is their redemption arcs and they were made great because the characters didn’t become perfect. Technically, like stated, it’s been 5 days. I think once you make the decision to change, the first few days are the easiest – like New Years resolutions! Once that initial ‘high’ of making a change in yourself is over and reality sets in, that change becomes a lot more difficult and if they don’t show that with Hook it 1) won’t feel real and 2) will be boring as all get-out.
One thing I hope they do in S3b is really flesh out the relationship between Hook & Neal…Bae? There’s been some hints on both sides that their relationship is complicated and I’ll be incredibly disappointed if their friendship falls by the wayside. The diner scene after they all get back to SB was so telling – Neal just walks up to Hook and sits down; and even though the conversation was about Emma, it was strangely comfortable. There’s so much there that has absolutely nothing to do with Emma, I really look forward to removing her/the “triangle” stuff from the equation and just focusing on their backstory and present day interactions.
January 7, 2014 at 8:40 pm #235785RumplesGirl
Keymastera little nutty?
*laughs and drinks heavily*
echnically, like stated, it’s been 5 days. I think once you make the decision to change, the first few days are the easiest – like New Years resolutions! Once that initial ‘high’ of making a change in yourself is over and reality sets in, that change becomes a lot more difficult and if they don’t show that with Hook it 1) won’t feel real and 2) will be boring as all get-out.
the New Year resolution is a really great comparison. Think of Rumple. He said he was changing in S2 but then he went rather dark again in Lacey-222 when he lost Bae. Setbacks happen for “villains”
I for one would be very sad if they didn’t revisit Hook history of trying to destroy Rumple. Or Hook’s history with Nealfire. He has more story to tell than just being part of the Triangle of Doom. That was one of my biggest issues with 3A. So much of his story (including interactions with PETER PAN! I mean COME ON! This is Captain Hook in NL and he barely interacted with PAN at all!!!!!!!) was swept aside.
One thing I hope they do in S3b is really flesh out the relationship between Hook & Neal…Bae?
If we don’t get non-triangle CaptainFire interaction in 3B I will be extremely disappointed.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"January 7, 2014 at 9:01 pm #235786Jenna_B
ParticipantJenna_B wrote: a little nutty?
*laughs and drinks heavily*
Haha, edited for content – foul language.
January 7, 2014 at 10:47 pm #235796Killian Jones
ParticipantI didn’t know we had a Hook thread well I’m happy now I guess I can post that pic I made here too 🙂
January 7, 2014 at 10:57 pm #235798RumplesGirl
KeymasterI didn’t know we had a Hook thread well I’m happy now I guess I can post that pic I made here too
WOW! Nice job!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love" -
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