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He still may have turned against the King. We know that Killian didn’t approve of what the King could have done with the poison, so if they’d taken the dreamshade back, (being unaware that it was poison because the Liam incident didn’t happen), the King had used it to kill 1000s of people, Killian would have been just as angry at the King, and also angry at himself for having played a part in his getting the poison.
For me, I would have found Hook’s turn to piracy more believable if that had happened because it would’ve been more clear that the king knew what dreamshade did. As it stands, there is the possibility that the king did genuinely think it was a medicine rather than the poison. Also Hook’s talk of “honour” would’ve held more weight, as we would’ve seen him fighting against a more powerful foe because it was the right thing to do. I hope Hook’s pirate career consists of just attacking the king’s ships rather than some poor merchants. Also I hope they make it clear that the king knew it was a poison, as that would make Hook seem more honourable in my opinion.
I disliked Hook’s flashback because it didn’t have the emotional punch to make me sympathise with him, the turn around from idealist navy man to pirate was too quick, even Regina had a transition period from innocent girl to Evil Queen. Also I think part of the problem I have with Hook’s sudden talk of honour throughout 3A is that, for the majority of season 2 Hook showed no honour whatsoever, and considering 3A only covers about a week timeline-wise, it just seems too quick a turn around, considering one minute he’s using innocent people as pawns and is willing to kill and destroy the entirety of Storybrooke to achieve his goal of killing Rumple, then next he’s describing himself as honourable just because he went to Neverland to help save Henry.
I was kind of disappointed with Hook’s role in Neverland. That was his time to shine and he kind of didn’t. His role was just to move the characters from point A to point B. He knew about Tinkerbell yet it took him until episode 3 to mention her. He knew about Bae’s cave yet it took until episode 4 to mention it. He knew Charming had been poisoned yet it took him to episode 5 to mention the cure. There’s a lot of things Hook knew but didn’t mention until an episode demanded it. I did like the moment when he forced Felix to sit back down though.
Also, Hook’s character so far has kind of been lumbered with plotlines that are kind of limiting for his character. His revenge against Rumple obviously wasn’t going to work out because they would never kill off Rumple permanently. Now he’s stuck with the CaptainSwanFire triangle and at the moment that’s all he’s got going for him. There was an opportunity to explore the Hook/Bae dynamic and instead that was ignored in favour of the triangle.
I initially liked Hook in Tallahassee and the first few episodes of season 3 to the point where I was wavering between CS and SF, then Dark Hollow and the New Neverland really put me off him. Hook can be very contradictory with what he says and does sometimes and not in the good way.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixOk, first I just want to say as a CSer, THANK YOU for the last few posts — I know it’s gotten a little tense during the hiatus but this is what I really like about this forum – we can have conversations about characters even when were on our different ‘ships – which I think makes watching the show even better.
I think there’s a common misconception that if someone doesn’t ship CS, they think that Hook is a waste of space and isn’t worth having on the show. (Same could probably be said about Neal and people who don’t ship SF.) And while that may be true in some cases, it’s most definitely not true in all. Those of us who don’t ship Hook with Emma just have a different perspective on the character, and still have plenty of insightful thoughts about him. If there’s a ship discussion going on, I’m prone to end up neck deep in it, pointing out Hook’s flaws as I see them, but just because I see him as being more flawed than a CS shipper might in certain cases, and want to hold him accountable for his actions in a different way, that doesn’t mean that I’m automatically hating on the character or that I’ve written him off.
Do we have one of these for Nealfire? Cause I’d love more perspective on him.
It hasn’t been posted in for almost a year, but there’s a Baelfire thread. And there’s also a CaptainFire thread.
Anywho, @Phee – excellent points. The arc has been a little too neat, I will give you that. But I think it’s just the beginning.
I hope so, because like I said, there’s far more they could do with him. I know his tagline for this season was about believing that a pirate can be a hero, and I know that many people do now consider him a hero. I’m not one of those people, because as I said in my previous post, I think he’s still largely selfishly motivated, and a true hero doesn’t do something good in the hopes that it will get him a reward and/or into a woman’s good graces, he just does it because it’s the right thing to do. He certainly has hero potential, but I don’t think it’s been realised yet, but I wouldn’t expect it to be realised yet, because all characters need to be truly tested and have to work at it before they’re granted that big hero moment as the crescendo for their redemption arc, like we saw happen with Rumple and Regina in 311.
Technically, like stated, it’s been 5 days. I think once you make the decision to change, the first few days are the easiest – like New Years resolutions! Once that initial ‘high’ of making a change in yourself is over and reality sets in, that change becomes a lot more difficult and if they don’t show that with Hook it 1) won’t feel real and 2) will be boring as all get-out.
He’s obviously changed his focus, he’s obviously felt a change of heart, but I dunno that I can say I see him as having “changed” yet. His major “change” was going from Navy man to pirate, and he’ll never be that same Navy man again, just like Rumple will never be the poor, scared man again, and Regina will never be the innocent girl with pure and simple desires again, but he can still embrace part of the good man he used to be way back then as his redemption progresses.
One thing he’s always been, for better or worse, is dedicated to a singular cause. As a Navy man he was 100% straight laced, obeyed the rules, the man didn’t even drink. Then in the blink of an eye he went 100% rogue. Many people thought that change was TOO fast, and as such it wasn’t believable. But if you consider how, (for want of a better term) “one eyed” he can be, I don’t find it completely unbelievable that the loss of Liam caused him to flip the switch that quickly. Then came Milah’s death, and again, instant, one eyed goal to fixate on with the revenge. So I don’t consider it out of character that he flipped the switch again with the kiss and became all about Emma. It bugs me that it happened during a storyline when I think they could have had him doing more interesting stuff instead (like RG said, he’s Captain Hook in NL and we barely even saw him interact with Pan), but I don’t consider it out of character, nor do I consider it unbelievable that he still wants Emma just as much a year later.
Now, I’m not saying that when he flips those switches it’s a hollow thing (which is why I wanted a better term than “one eyed” because it sorta has that hollow connotation), because each time it’s happened, it’s been emotionally motivated. The loss of his brother, the loss of his love, and the realisation that he can move on and love again – all very emotionally loaded situations. I’m just saying, this thing where he suddenly gets himself fixated on a particular goal/ideal is how he deals with life. He’s gotta find a balance if he’s ever gonna be truly satisfied in life, but before he can find that balance, he has to find the courage to let go of his one eyed way of thinking and lessen his grip on having to be in control.
That was one of my biggest issues with 3A. So much of his story (including interactions with PETER PAN! I mean COME ON! This is Captain Hook in NL and he barely interacted with PAN at all!!!!!!!) was swept aside.
I am praying to every deity that there will be more flashbacks of Hook in NL in the not too distant future, because WORD. All we know is that he did some dirty work for Pan and there was some incident that resulted in the death of Rufio, and frankly, that’s just not a satisfying amount of storytelling when it comes to Captain fricking Hook’s history with Peter fricking Pan.
Now, I get that the Hook/Pan stuff got sidelined so they could focus on the Rumple/Pan stuff instead, and I loved the Rumple/Pan stuff and wouldn’t want to have seen that sidelined at all, but imagine if the triangle – actually, let’s make it a rhombus – had been Rumple/Pan/Hook/Neal. Rumple and Pan have their many issues. Hook has a centuries long vendetta that he pretty much had to give up on, but you can’t tell me that part of him wouldn’t have been tempted to keep at it and achieve his goal if there was an underhanded way to do it. So maybe Pan tries to get Hook to work with him again (and we could see how they’d worked together before) against Rumple, because they both hate Rumple’s guts. Then Neal shows up, and if Hook ever had genuine affection for him as a kid, that could affect his desire to keep trying to off Rumple, because at the end of the day, Hook doesn’t want to destroy Neal’s family all over again, especially now when Neal’s on the verge of finally being able to reconcile with his father. But Pan, having worked with Hook before, has a certain amount of control over him and poses a real threat to him, so what does Hook do? Does he give in and play along with Pan again, because OMG does he wanna kill Rumple and he’ll have wasted centuries if he doesn’t achieve his revenge. Or does he do some soul searching, and defy and double cross Pan, (Hook revels in playing both sides), possibly putting his life in danger in the process, and ultimately end up helping to save Rumple and restore Neal’s family? That would have given us Hook/Pan stuff, Hook/Neal stuff, Rumple/Neal stuff, Rumple/Pan stuff, and some juicy material for Colin to sink his teeth into which would have resulted in some gritty character exploration. Instead we just got him puffing out his chest to try and win the girl. Like I said though, hopefully that’s just one step in a longer journey they have planned for him.
I am praying to every deity that there will be more flashbacks of Hook in NL in the not too distant future, because WORD. All we know is that he did some dirty work for Pan and there was some incident that resulted in the death of Rufio, and frankly, that’s just not a satisfying amount of storytelling when it comes to Captain fricking Hook’s history with Peter fricking Pan.
Just had a thought, what if Pan told Hook to kill Rufio, and Hook did it in exchange for Pan letting him off the island.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIt bugs me that it happened during a storyline when I think they could have had him doing more interesting stuff instead (like RG said, he’s Captain Hook in NL and we barely even saw him interact with Pan), but I don’t consider it out of character, nor do I consider it unbelievable that he still wants Emma just as much a year later.
Yeah. I see a lot of “he’s had been thinking about her for a whole year and that’s totally significant” and my reaction is, “well of course he has!” It would be OOC for him to NOT have thought about Emma. Not because of messy stupid triangle-ness but because his character trait is an obsessive person. And that’s actually very traditional to Hook in Barrie’s work. I have no doubt that he spent every day obsessing over Liam until he met Milah. And then he spent 300 years obsessing over Milah. And now..focus change. But after he met Milah we’ve seen no evidence that he ever mentions Liam again (in fact when he is bonding with Bae he tells him a totally different story to win his sympathies) and he hasn’t mentioned Milah at all after the kiss even though he had been reunited with Milah’s son, the one he almost raised. Hook in all his various literary and movie/tv iterations is a myopic and obsessive.
Now, I’m not saying that when he flips those switches it’s a hollow thing (which is why I wanted a better term than “one eyed” because it sorta has that hollow connotation), because each time it’s happened, it’s been emotionally motivated. The loss of his brother, the loss of his love, and the realisation that he can move on and love again – all very emotionally loaded situations.
Same. He’s not a child with a new shiny toy every single time. He is just greatly affected by emotions. But my question is does he understand what he’s feeling. When Liam died and he turned pirate he said it was out of honor and because the King had lied, but like POM pointed out, we don’t actually know WHAT the king thought. Hook was operating on his grief not out of some wounded sense of honor. When he struck out against Rumple, vowing to kill him, it was out of grief but his continued quest to kill him was part of his obsessive nature. He’s Captain Ahab in other words. And Milah was his white whale for so long that like many I have a hard time seeing him absolutely moving on to another woman because I think his emotions changed but it’s a new obsession.
I am praying to every deity that there will be more flashbacks of Hook in NL in the not too distant future, because WORD. All we know is that he did some dirty work for Pan and there was some incident that resulted in the death of Rufio, and frankly, that’s just not a satisfying amount of storytelling when it comes to Captain fricking Hook’s history with Peter fricking Pan.
This is why I’d really be ok with a Once Upon a Time in Neverland SUMMER hiatus special. 5 or 6 episodes that is just PP, Hook, and Tink, and the Darlings. (don’t even get me started on the fact that PP and Tink weren’t in one scene together)
Just had a thought, what if Pan told Hook to kill Rufio, and Hook did it in exchange for Pan letting him off the island.
Interesting. We have yet to hear or see anything more on the “dirty work” Hook was doing for PP.
Actually, since we’re talking about it: what do you guys think it was? I’ve seen a bazillion theories but I don’t think I’ve actually seen any from the CSers. (I could be totally wrong. I read all your stuff but I generally do it really quickly)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t know we’ll ever know what he did for Pan, or why the backstory of Hook’s father follows such a close parallel to Gold’s. They both abandoned their sons for the cause of self-interest. Those are gaps I hope are not left open.
My tumblr page is http://cs-in-tn.tumblr.com/
I used to think that Hook was bringing children to NL for PP. But then I realized that if Hook had a way to leave the island, he’d just go back on his deal with PP and not return to NL. So that’s no longer my headcanon.
Given that at the end of the NL arc a lot of the Lost Boys were very willing to help Emma if it meant they could go home, I think Hook’s role may have been to ensure that none of the boys left NL. If one of them tried to leave PP’s group for example, PP sent Hook after them.
As for Hook’s father….*sigh* I used to be one of the people who would defend Hook when people would say that he was lying to Baelfire. Now..not so much. I think he lied. The Naval Officer we met in 305 was not a man haunted and traumatized by the abandonment of a parent. He was far too…emotionally well adjusted if that makes sense. I think the writers decided to change tactics in order to serve the dreamshade arc so they threw PapaJones out the window and hope no one would notice.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I used to think that Hook was bringing children to NL for PP. But then I realized that if Hook had a way to leave the island, he’d just go back on his deal with PP and not return to NL. So that’s no longer my headcanon.
Given that at the end of the NL arc a lot of the Lost Boys were very willing to help Emma if it meant they could go home, I think Hook’s role may have been to ensure that none of the boys left NL. If one of them tried to leave PP’s group for example, PP sent Hook after them.
As for Hook’s father….*sigh* I used to be one of the people who would defend Hook when people would say that he was lying to Baelfire. Now..not so much. I think he lied. The Naval Officer we met in 305 was not a man haunted and traumatized by the abandonment of a parent. He was far too…emotionally well adjusted if that makes sense. I think the writers decided to change tactics in order to serve the dreamshade arc so they threw PapaJones out the window and hope no one would notice.
I’m a CS’er and a big fan of Hook, but have to admit he looked pretty happy with his brother, Liam. Something which occurred to me though, is how he looked up to Liam. I wonder if Liam ended up being more than a brother; if Liam became Killian’s father figure in the absence of his real father. I wonder if we’ll ever know.
As for them hoping nobody would notice the parallel of Papa Jones vs. Papa Stiltskin: It’s kind of hard to ignore a gap that big in a story plot. That gap is a hundred pound gorilla in the room, and will be until it’s filled with substance to explain why it is there.
My tumblr page is http://cs-in-tn.tumblr.com/
I’m a CS’er and a big fan of Hook, but have to admit he looked pretty happy with his brother, Liam. Something which occurred to me though, is how he looked up to Liam. I wonder if Liam ended up being more than a brother; if Liam became Killian’s father figure in the absence of his real father. I wonder if we’ll ever know.
PapaJones could be still be an absent father with Liam stepping up to the plate, I agree. But I don’t think PapaJones actually left Killian and Liam. If anything he may have been a less than stellar father. But I *really* doubt we’ll ever know.
As for them hoping nobody would notice the parallel of Papa Jones vs. Papa Stiltskin: It’s kind of hard to ignore a gap that big in a story plot. That gap is a hundred pound gorilla in the room, and will be until it’s filled with substance to explain why it is there.
It would be a giant gap IF it’s true. But like I said, I don’t think PapaJones and PapaStiltskin are alike because I don’t think PapaJones left his sons the same way Malcolm left Rumple.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
As for Hook’s father….*sigh* I used to be one of the people who would defend Hook when people would say that he was lying to Baelfire. Now..not so much. I think he lied. The Naval Officer we met in 305 was not a man haunted and traumatized by the abandonment of a parent. He was far too…emotionally well adjusted if that makes sense. I think the writers decided to change tactics in order to serve the dreamshade arc so they threw PapaJones out the window and hope no one would notice.
I hadn’t been convinced either way before 305, but yeah, now I’m thinking the story about his father is officially a lie. Neither Killian or Liam appeared to be suffering from the parental abandonment angst that Hook was telling Bae he’d experienced. Maybe they had originally planned to go the abandoning father route for his backstory and just changed their minds to allow for the dead brother conversation between Hook and Charming and the dreamshade storyline, or maybe it was just always a lie, but either way it doesn’t really matter, because it’s believable that he’d have made the story up just to get to Bae.
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