Emma + Baelfire = Swanfire

[Ranisha Pitts]

Happy Easter/chocolate day!

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Hmm I doubt chocolate covered Lamb Fries will be on the menu.

 

[PriceofMagic]

RG suggested I post this here so as not to upset the CSers.

Are Hook and Emma basically Edward Cullen and Bella Swan from Twilight but with more personality?

I’ve never read the Twilight books and only had the misfortune to see the first movie, but the gist with them is that their relationship is treated as this romance of the ages by the author and the Twihards when in reality it’s pretty horrifying and unhealthy.

There are certain superficial similarities between the two couples, mainly Emma and Bella share the same surname, and the “love triangle” between Edward/Bella/Jacob and Hook/Emma/Neal split their respective fandoms forever. However, the treatment of CS and the treatment of Bella/Edward by their “authors” seem similar too.

In the last episode “Best laid Plans”, I found Hook’s reaction to Emma’s friendship with August to be a bit of a “red flag” especially the part where Hook gave his blessing/permission for Emma to continue her friendship with August. This is troubling for two reasons:
1. It implies that Hook doesn’t trust Emma to be just friends with a guy without something more going on.
2. It implies that Emma is only allowed to be friends with a guy if Hook gives her his permission.

Emma shouldn’t have to justify herself and her friendships to anyone, especially Hook when she’s been okay with his secret keeping (which in itself is eyebrow raising especially since relationships are supposed to be built on trust). How much of Hook’s secret keeping has actually caused more problems than if he’d been honest about why certain people (for example Ursula)are hateful of him. At the very least, being open about his past gives everyone a heads up about possible future threats. At best it seems to suggest that Hook doesn’t trust Emma to stay with him after finding out what he’s done in the past. At worst, it suggests that Emma doesn’t want to know what Hook has done in the past as it would skewer the “dashing pirate gentleman” perception she has of him and that is more important to her than the truth.

Hook’s actions towards Emma in season 2 aren’t troubling as such until season 3 where this great “love” he has for her is revealed which then makes his season 2 actions towards her retroactively troubling and somewhat diminishes his original motivations. JMo and Colin have chemistry, that’s undeniable, in fact from their scenes in Tallahassee I can see why people would ship the two character together. However, the way the pairing has been written as a pairing so far, it seems like the chemistry between the two actors and the want of the fans to have the two characters together has overridden any actual proper storytelling to get these two characters together in a naturally flowing way so they’ve just been stuck together to keep fans happy.

In season 2, Hook was purely focussed on getting his revenge on Rumple for Milah. He flirted with Emma, but he tried flirting with every other woman that crossed his path too, so this was just Hook being Hook. He betrayed Emma and left her in Rumple’s cell but she’d betrayed him first and Cora was his way to Rumple so it makes sense that he would keep Cora onside over Emma. When Cora was defeated, Hook sided with GOAT still intent on getting revenge against Rumple, even though he changed his mind afterwards. Hook was going to escape Storybrooke before it was destroyed, but changed his mind at the memory of Baelfire and Emma’s offer to be a part of something. He came back, not realising the town had already been saved, and instead offered his ship and services to Emma to help her save Henry. He was being “a part of something”. So far, so good and perhaps even a mutual friendship could form between Emma and Hook.

In 3A, thinks were going well for CS. They were working together, they were socialising, they were helping each other, it seemed like a solid foundation to build a friendship on which could then develop into something more. Then the CS kiss happened. Hook demands a kiss from Emma as thanks for saving Charming. Aside from the morally dubiousness aspect of “Hook demands a kiss from Emma as thanks for saving Charming”, it could be argued that Hook was just taking his flirty game with Emma to the next level and Emma gave him more than he bargained for. Hook even told the Nevengers about Neal as it was the right thing to do even though Pan implied that Neal would stand in the way of Hook’s crush of Emma. Hook’s still thinking about the kiss so it’s clear that he realises he likes Emma as more than just a friend. So far so good. Then came the echo cave scene.

In the echo caves, Hook admits that he’s moved on from Milah because of the kiss. This is where the trouble starts in the writing of CS and makes Hook’s season 2 actions retroactively troubling. A person doesn’t just “move on” at the drop of a hat. Either Hook was having these feelings for Emma before the kiss, and considering 3A follows on straight after season 2 timewise, it puts his season 2 actions towards Emma in a whole new light. Or, Hook has suddenly shifted his attention, and clearly obsession, from avenging Milah onto winning Emma’s affections. Neither prospect is particularly healthy and Hook’s focus is completely on Emma to the point of tunnel vision.

Dark Hollow is a bad episode for both Hook and Neal as they fight over Emma but Neal comes out of it better than Hook by the end. In this episode:
Emma and Neal are planning the trip to Dark Hollow so Hook decides to tag along too because he doesn’t want Emma and Neal to be alone together.
Hook “accidentally” tells Neal about the CS kiss. This is Hook telling Neal to “back off” from Emma.
Hook then reiterates the “back off” threat to Neal by telling Neal he gave Emma Neal’s cutlass to “remember you by” which causes Neal to get a bit cranky. It might seem like an over-reaction from Neal to a “kind gesture” by Hook but actually Neal himself could see what Hook was doing- making a point that Neal’s relationship with Emma is over and in the past.
Hook gives Emma his “WHEN I win your heart and I WILL win it” speech, and tells Emma that she will have to choose between him and Neal.
Hook and Neal fight over the lighter and nearly get themselves killed.
When Emma berates them both, Hook petulantly argues back that they were fighting over her.
When Emma tells them both that Henry is the only love she has room for in her life, Hook sulks for the rest of the episode whereas Neal accepts Emma’s decision.

Hook’s behaviour regarding Emma in Dark Hollow becomes intense. He tells Emma he “will” win her heart, he tells her that she has to choose between him and Neal, whilst at the same time, behind Emma’s back, tells his love rival to back off from Emma. Emma even tells him “it’s not a contest” to which Hook replies “isn’t it?” which implies that Hook very much sees it as a contest and by telling Neal to back off is actually trying to skew the contest in his own favour. Hook sees Emma as a prize to be won and he wants to win her.

In 310 “The new Neverland” Hook sidles up to Neal in the diner and the conversation is basically him telling Neal that Neal can have first crack at Emma but when it all goes wrong Hook will swoop in and pick up the pieces because Hook is in it for the “long haul”. Hook then throws himself at Tinkerbell and insinuates that he and Tinkerbell have got something going on in order to make Emma jealous. Hook’s actions are very disconcerting here:
1. He’s trying to set Emma up to have her heart broken again so he can swoop in and play the caring knight in shining armour role.
2. He’s willing to use Tinkerbell, not only as a distraction for himself, but as a tool to make Emma jealous.

At this point, Hook can easily be described as a jealous, obsessive game player who won’t take no for an answer.

In 311, “Going home” Tinkerbell is very pro-CS. Much like in 3B where she’s pro-OQ. It seems the writers want CS to be accepted by the audience as a “romance of the ages” by having a character literally push that idea forwards despites Hook’s previous dubious actions. At the end of 311, they have Hook try TLK on Emma (in 3B she has him arrested for assault because of this). Whilst the idea itself isn’t unheard of within the show (Both Rumple and Charming tried it on Belle and Snow respectively when they lost their memories), why would Hook think it would work when he and Emma aren’t even in a relationship at this point in the game?

3B gets complicated. I actually liked Hook in 3B when I watched it. He wasn’t trying to push his romantic intentions on Emma in 3B (at least not like he was in 3A), he didn’t tell Emma about the JR (which would’ve seemed like an instant win), the only screw up he made seemed to be when he tried to take Henry without Emma’s permission though it was to save him from Zelena. All in all, it seemed like Hook had turned a corner….until you look back and realise Hook had a whole year without the object of his obsession to pursue.

Hook ditched the rest of the Storybrookers as soon as he could because working with them didn’t serve him in any way. Emma wouldn’t be there to see what a good little team player he was, so why bother? Hook still had Emma on the brain so did the whole year without her make him believe in his fantasy that he and Emma were actually in love hence why he tried TLK on her because “absence makes the heart grow fonder” or in his case “absence makes the obsession grow stronger”?

After Emma found out Walsh was a flying monkey, Hook stuck to her like glue. Was he really just trying to be a good friend, or was he actually playing the “caring knight in shining armour” role that he anticipated in playing over a Neal/Emma break-up. Walsh was the only guy Emma had let into her heart since Neal, she was actually contemplating marrying him and he was the only guy she’d liked enough to let Henry meet. Emma would actually be in an emotionally vulnerable state and Hook was constantly there watching. Emma gets a double emotional whammy with Neal’s death and Hook was there. Whilst having your friends and family around you during difficult times is helpful, is the guy who has a romantic obsession with you really the best choice? Not to mention that Neal’s death meant Emma didn’t actually choose between Neal and Hook, Hook “won” by default which put the whole “when I win” speech in a new unflattering light.

It’s not long between Neal’s death and the CS kiss in the finale. We haven’t seen Emma (or anyone really) grieve for Neal (Rumple spent his grieving period plotting to avenge Neal). Is it possible that Emma doesn’t want to think of it or even acknowledge her pain over Neal so she’s willing to throw herself into a relationship with Hook so she doesn’t have to deal with her pain? Emma went through a lot of emotional trauma in 3B including thinking she’d just watched her mother get burnt alive. Hook made her feel something that wasn’t pain, he made her laugh, made her smile, comforted her, etc. As a friend, that is a solid foundation. As a guy romantically obsessed with her, were Hook’s intentions truly noble or did he want to make Emma feel good about herself so that she would rely on him to make her feel those positive feelings. If a woman/guy you fancied came up to you, having gone through what Emma did, and said they wanted to start a relationship with you, would you jump at the chance or would you want to give them some time to deal with their issues before starting a relationship?

Hook and Henry is another cloudy subject. Did Hook actually care about Henry or did he just see him as a way to get to Emma as pointed out by Will in 4A? When Hook tried to shuttle Henry out of town, why couldn’t he have told Charming or Emma about his plan (don’t tell Snow any important secrets) so that they wouldn’t worry about Henry? Was Hook just using the Henry and Zelena situation to play at being the big hero? In 4A under the shattered sight spell, when Henry admits to never having liked Hook, Hook doesn’t give a damn about Henry’s feelings, he only cares about the fact Emma said they were “together”. Has Hook been using Henry as a pawn to get to Emma the entire time?

In 4A, Hook’s behaviour spirals downhill again and the writing of CS takes a turn for the worst. First Hook antagonises Rumple by blackmailing him and casually threatening Belle all so he could get his hand back. If Hook really cared about Belle, he’s have told her what Rumple was up to, not try and use her as leverage over Rumple. Second, Hook wants his hand back in case Emma wants him to “hold her”. 1. Emma’s not shown any aversion to Hook’s hook before so why is he so bothered by it now? 2. “Hold her” seems to be a euphemism for sex (which would explain why Hook might be self-conscious about the hook but he’s slept with other women before with the hook so see point 1) Why is Hook assuming his date with Emma could lead to sex? It could but still, he shouldn’t assume it could. On the CS writing side, Emma’s date dress. It is such an unEmma dress that it could suggest that Emma is changing her personality to please Hook. Also Hook is keeping secrets but Emma’s not bothered by what the secrets are, even when those secrets come back to bite them in present day? Also when Emma expresses worry over the Snow Queen, Hook seems to dismiss her concerns in a “don’t worry your pretty little head about it” manner.

Finally Hook and Will. I’ve only just made this connection actually but it does make me wonder. In 4A Hook had it in for Will, seemingly for no other reason that Will caused a waiter to spill water on Emma’s dress. Hook beat up Will because of his “hand” though whether the hand was cursed or not is still open to debate. But what Hook said in 4B about Emma being “partial to men in leather jackets” made me think. Will wears a leather jacket. From 4A onwards, Hook seems to be insecure about himself and Emma. Was Hook seeing Will as another potential rival? (ScarlettSwan would be an interesting pairing) With Will currently paired up with Belle, Hook doesn’t feel the need to worry about him right now since he’s out of the equation. However, with Rumple back in town, Hook might be concerned that not only could ScarlettBeauty break up but Rumple could cause more trouble for him.

In conclusion, are the writers trying to write CS as this epitome of true love despite evidence to the contrary like Twilight did with Bella and Edward, or are these less than savoury incidents part of an underlying on-going story that has yet to be revealed? If it is the former, why include the incidents which contradict that notion? If it is the latter, why is CS being given a “love of the ages” kind of treatment?

Thoughts?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Okay, POM. I owe you an answer.

I think it boils down to two things

1) TV as a business and

2) Rape culture as an institution of media.

I’m going to tackle the second point first. We’ve had many discussions of rape culture here in SF because many of us feel that it absolutely pertains to CS and what is happening on our screens. I won’t belabor that point because, like I said, we’ve talked about it. Most people hear the word rape and throw up their hands and instantly get defensive because if there is an objective evil in this world it’s sexual assault and violence. There is no good way to spin it and if you try, you’re labeled very bad things. But what this mean is that when we try to have conversations about rape culture, which is *not* the act of rape, it gets bogged down in the emotional defenses of those who don’t want to see their favorite ship or hero be labeled as a rapist, which, again, isn’t technically what is being said.

Rape culture is about the way media tells men and women need to interact with one another. It is one of the oldest stories in modern media. It gets labeled cutesy things like “the chase” or “the pursuit.” It is when TV, books, movies tell us that a man’s unending pursuit of a woman, in spite of the fact that she is telling him no (no matter what her own internal and conflicted feelings may or may not be) is okay. That it is inevitable that she will give in to him because 1) he is clearly in love with her and how could she resist him charms 2) he is really good looking and/or 3) she doesn’t understand her own heart because she is damaged and therefore unable to appreciate his affections. But he will heal her if only she would let him.

It is every story under the sun and the plain fact is we are all victim to it because it’s played off as familiar TV drama and “it’s only a TV show” which means that it “doesn’t matter” but what we fail to recognize is that TV is very much a lens into our own cultural mores and that TV is a reflection of the way we live our lives. The “chase” of a woman by a man is seen as romantic because it’s what media tells us should be romantic. Our culture informs our own opinions on the world and is constantly reinforcing the notion that this pursuit is a good thing.

This is a world where 50 Shades of Grey is seen as a romance novel instead of the deeply disturbing example of rape culture. In which the woman, a weak minded vessel who has no personality, falls prey to a dangerous good looking man whom she readily gives up everything for because underneath his cold, violent exterior surely there is a good man and he’s being ever so good to the woman (he bought her a car, he puts her up, he’s arouses her sexually) that the clearly disturbing overtones are ignored.

Everything from 50 Shades, to OUAT, to even pairings that I do like (Olitz for example) are problematic because they center on a woman being pursued by a man who is almost forceful at times with his affections but gets a pass because “he clearly loves her so much.”

The TV landscape wants you to find those distasteful actions not necessarily over the top romantic but indicative of a man who, despite his flaws, is deeply in love and what woman could resist him. Just look at all he does for her! They play into what women are told they should want–a man who will fight for them, EVEN WHEN THE WOMAN DOESN’T WANT IT.

CS is part of the rape culture institution in media. Adam and Eddy aren’t to blame, they aren’t the inventors of this, they just fell in to the same trap that thousands of other examples from media fell into. It’s the idea that this is how stories are told and most people don’t recognize it for what it is because they are too swept up in the heady romanticization of it all.

For Cs specifically, I don’t care if Emma was conflicted. I don’t care if the word “no” never actually passed from her lips. Her body language and what she did say were enough that there should have been a full stop to any and all pursuit. Not saying no does not mean saying yes. If that means that Hook never got to be with her, then FINE. We live in a world where instead of teaching men, “don’t rape!” we teach women “here’s how not to get raped” or “here’s how not to attract unwanted attention.” It’s highly disturbing because it takes the most objective evil on the planet and puts the blame on the victim.

I realized I just talked a lot but to bring this back to point number one: TV is a business. TV cares about its bottom line. It cares about its money and its ads and it cares about buzz. Because CS is just following the pattern of many other TV and other media couples of relentless pursuit that eventually gave way to “the inevitable” it’s sellable. Yes Jmo and Colin have chemistry; Colin a very attractive man; the media machine that are TV websites run on eyeballs coming to check out what they have to say. Sexy Colin + Steamy CS = eyeballs = money. It’s not hard for ABC see which direction the wind was blowing. It was blowing to CS. Even in episodes like Manhattan, an episode that should have been Bobby, MRJ, JMo focused, there were interviews about Hook and with Colin about how Neal entering the picture could hurt or help CS!

ABC doesn’t really care about the morality of it all because rape culture is still a very controversial topic. It’s something that either gets labeled as the rantings of a bunch of feminists or as something that is slowly coming to light in a modern world that has ignored it for fall too long. It gets extra complicated because when people do want to talk about what is happening in media we don’t argue facts: we argue emotional truths. I cannot recommend enough the Hulk Critic’s blog on this basic fact. ABC cares about selling ABC. CS is selling ABC (well, trying), whether we like it or not.

In conclusion, are the writers trying to write CS as this epitome of true love despite evidence to the contrary like Twilight did with Bella and Edward

So to answer your actual question….they are writing CS the way thousands of other couples in media have been written because it’s what sells and it’s what culture believes they should want to see/hear/read. In order to change the culture, you first have to change the things that make up that culture, and that includes how relationships between men and women are presented. There is no yet-to-be-uncovered story. The story you see is just the next one in a long line of what media thinks romance is and how they should sell it.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Phee]

First of all, WORD to what RG said.

In conclusion, are the writers trying to write CS as this epitome of true love despite evidence to the contrary like Twilight did with Bella and Edward,

It’s been a while since I read Twilight (yeah I read it, all of it, so sue me :-P), and you can make the comparison in so far as the seeds for the relationship were sowed when Edward was a creepy stalker who stalked, (he’d climb in her bedroom window to watch her sleep, doesn’t get much more stalker than that). But in Edward’s defense, he was loathe to put Bella in danger, and played an active role in protecting her, so you can’t really draw a similarity with Hook in that part of the characterisation. He also didn’t want Bella to give up her mortality just to be with him, he wanted her to actually have a full life and be with her family, and didn’t believe she’d have that opportunity if she was with him.

Yeah there was a love triangle in Twilight, but I daresay it was handled better than the triangle on OUAT. In Twilight they actually addressed why one of the guys was adamant to get the girl away from the other guy, and it wasn’t just a petty tug of war over the girl, it was a centuries old distrust between werewolves and vampires and a life and death situation, so there was some sort of depth to it.

Bella may have been a lovesick teen who made some questionable choices, (who the frick marries their vampire boyfriend immediately after graduating highschool?), but they were her choices. Whenever either Edward or Jacob told her “Bella NO”, she’d be all, “Bella YES,” even so far as when Edward didn’t want her to have their baby because it’d likely kill her, but she insisted she was having the dang baby. Jacob made it obvious that he wanted to be with her, but Bella made it equally as obvious that no matter what he felt for her, she never saw him as more than a friend.

It may have started out as Bella not really knowing who Edward was, but once she was in the loop with all the vampire (and werewolf) stuff, she wasn’t in the dark about who the man was that she wanted to be with, so she was at least capable of making informed choices. The same can’t be said for Emma, because she’s just not aware of who Hook really is. As messed up as Twilight was, the girl did at least still have some agency once you got to a certain part of the story.

I know there’s that meme for “Still a better love story than Twilight”, but I’d say that Twilight is still a better love story than CS. 😛

[WickedRegal]

@RumplesGirl….PREACH RG! PREACH!!!

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Phee]

The Arrow fandom has been dealing with a similar issue lately. For those who don’t watch the show, this guy Ray came into the story, and he did things like buying the company Felicity worked for so she was forced to work for him, and pinging her phone then showing up where she was to talk to her, and showing up at her apartment uninvited first thing in the morning. Right after he showed up, Felicity actually called him out on being a “stalker”, and ever since he’s done things that have come across as being quite controlling. But then she ended up in a relationship with him.

Fans of Felicity expressed their displeasure, and whenever the showrunner responded it was in the vein of, “Sure we’ll address it if Ray’s done anything problematic, but he hasn’t as yet,” and, “haven’t you people ever seen a romantic comedy before, this is totes that.” Then a few days ago someone asked him if he was worried at all about Ray being able to hold his own on the spinoff they’ll have him on, considering all the negative reaction to him, and his response was essentially, “LOLz nah, the only people who don’t like him are butthurt Olicity shippers”. (Olicity, Oliver and Felicity, is the major ship that has the vocal fandom, so Felicty being with Ray has hampered that).

That prompted someone to call him out…
Listen. You literally have hundreds of women telling you why they find Ray’s behavior problematic and threatening. Dismissing that as silly fans just being angry about their ship, alienates an entire group of smart, capable viewers in the most insultingly patronizing way possible. It is not about a ship. If you just cared enough to actually open up discourse and LISTEN to us, then maybe you could understand too, instead of telling us how we’re SUPPOSED to feel about Ray.

And to his credit, he replied…
Okay. That’s fair. What did he do that was problematic and/or threatening?

Whether or not he pays attention to the responses he’s gotten, who knows, but I hope he does because as the woman who sent him that message in the first place said in one of her responses to him…

I know, I know. It’s supposed to be romantic. “Haven’t you seen romantic comedies?” You’ve replied in the past. Yes, we have. And every time Hollywood tries to pass off this sort of behavior as quirky and cute, it helps to normalize this pattern and make it acceptable. Media affects the people who consume it. It always has, and this is no different. Women exist in relationships where their lives are not their own. And they are continuously told that that’s okay – it’s just the guy being cute or passionate, or a little bit jealous – it’s sweet. No harm, no foul.

I mean, look. At the end of the day, we all know what your intentions with Ray were. We all know that he isn’t actually a bad guy. But the sorts of behaviors he displays are generally displayed by guys who aren’t as nice as Ray is.

How are girls supposed to know the difference when they end up with someone like that in real life?

So here’s the deal.

I’m not sure whether you really wanted me to respond here. I’m not even sure if you’re going to read any of this. It’s possible you just answered my ask because you thought it would make it look like you cared. But on the off-chance that you’re still reading – there’s nothing that can be done about Ray at this point. He’s been written, the episodes have been filmed. It is what it is.

But we’re seeing this really interesting new trend emerge in television and other media right now, where you as a show-runner, can actually interact with your viewers and hear what they have to say. It’s an incredible opportunity to begin to reshape the way certain tropes and plots are handled. Instead of saying – well this is how it’s always been done, you can actually watch your show evolve through the eyes of your audience and do something different, something better.

For now, Ray Palmer is what he is. But you can actually take a step back, look at this through a different set of eyes, and acknowledge that there are viewers who care about this sort of thing for reasons that have nothing to do with shipping. We want to see a change. We want to be able root for a hero. We want to be able to see why a character is great instead of being told why. And instead of responding to those viewers with ridicule, maybe you can acknowledge that your audience is smart, sophisticated, and knows what it wants.

It’s a big deal that in this day and age, the consumers of media have the ability to get their reactions and opinions directly to the people making the media immediately after seeing it. If ever there was a time when standards can shift, (not just in relation to this particular issue, but right across the board on all sorts of issues that have just become accepted as the norm), then this should be it. It’s just a question of whether the showrunners are prepared to step up, accept that some things that have always been done are actually problematic, and be a part of things changing for the better.

[Josephine]

We want to see a change. We want to be able root for a hero. We want to be able to see why a character is great instead of being told why.

O…M…G. This is Once in a nutshell. We’ve been criticizing Once because this is essentially the root of our complaints. It’s not about being bitter shippers, it’s that when we’re TOLD to do something, it comes off as blind obedience. I can think for myself. Don’t tell me, show me.

For example in Season One, they set Rumple up as this villain, a trickster who manipulated everything for selfish reasons. But then they showed the evolution of his story. Bits and pieces woven throughout the season. Through losing his son, through losing Belle. It was a beautiful story. They didn’t tell us to love Rumple, but for many of us it was an organic result of storytelling.

Another example is Snowing. We all knew that Snow White and Prince Charming were True Love from the first moment of the show. But they showed us why. We weren’t just told “Here is this couple. You must love them just because”. They showed us their love story: their meet cute in Snow Falls, David fighting for Snow after her forgetting him, their struggles throughout their courtship and marriage. (Remember, I’m referring to the first season.)

But then after the first two seasons they began to TELL us things. Action, magic, special effects and “shock” became the standard. They’re more interested in telling us connections and relationships instead of showing us anything. (Belle and Will, I’m looking at you. What the what????) No time for character development? Just put in a few lines of exposition. Why talk about your problems when you can wave a sword at them or have a magic cure!

And the most frustrating thing about the criticism to the show is that it’s always met with condescension. Dismissed as just the complaints of bitter shippers. We are not stupid or relate everything to romance. We have valid complaints and it’s so frustrating that this show, that was once wonderful and brought us all together has degraded to the point of hate-watching it. I don’t want to hate-watch it. I want to love it, but that is not to be, anymore, and it makes me sad.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[WickedRegal]

And the most frustrating thing about the criticism to the show is that it’s always met with condescension. Dismissed as just the complaints of bitter shippers. We are not stupid or relate everything to romance. We have valid complaints and it’s so frustrating that this show, that was once wonderful and brought us all together has degraded to the point of hate-watching it. I don’t want to hate-watch it. I want to love it, but that is not to be, anymore, and it makes me sad.

Quote

TRUTH! And although I’m an OutlawQueen shipper…I think “certain” things could have been written better, or in more detail.

And killing Neal, one of the realest people on the show who could have probably served as the voice of the audience…when you really think about it, his death was truly unnecessary and carried no true plot. You don’t want him with Emma, fine, we can take that, but for the love of the father, son, and the holy ghost, don’t take another father from his son!!! Stilskin Men always lose their dad somehow, and I thought the cycle would have finally been broken with Neal & Henry, but nope, Adam and Eddy swiped that from us! This show literally stole the chance of Henry having a father, and actually manage to convince themselves and a fraction of the fandom that Hook can replace Neal in Henry’s life! (BEEP) NO!

And Rumple…poor Rumple! Talk about Character Assassination at it’s best…I have never watched a show that has tried so hard to make you hate what was once a beloved character, and to be honest, is slowly succeeding in that task. Where is the father and the husband, no (beep) that, THE HUMAN WE KNEW who would have chosen love over power!!! WHERE IS THE LIMPING, LOVING MAN WHO KISSED A SOLDIER’S BOOT WHILE PLEADING FOR HIS SON’S FREEDOM FROM WAR! HE MAY HAVE BEEN A COWARD, BUT (BEEP) IT, HE WASN’T A MONSTER!

“calms down”

And concerning OutlawQueen, I personally would have preferred if Regina and Robin had really hit it off back in the Enchanted Forest during that one year, I think everyone would have been warmed up to that build up rather than the excuse of being an “instant attraction/love at first sight”. Then again…thanks to these 11/11 half season episodes, we couldn’t get that because there wasn’t enough time.

Had Season 3 been all NL:

3×01-3×11: Neverland Adventure

3×11-3×22: Evil Panry

We could have gotten all of the missing info in a total Neverland Season 3.

And Season 4 should have been all of Oz!

4×01-4×11: The Whole Year in the EF/Beginning of OutlawQueen/WickedSisters Pre War/Emma and Henry in NYC

4×11-4×12: Season 3B As Usual

And then Season 5 would have been Frozen!

I just…I really don’t like this Half Season crap! It doesn’t give time to flesh out anything, and to be honest…Adam and Eddy are running out of stories to tell because they’re cutting them in half and rushing through it. That is why Season 4B really feels like we’re heading toward the end of this series (cough) Season 5 (cough).

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[RumplesGirl]

haven’t you people ever seen a romantic comedy before, this is totes that.

And that’s pretty much the answer you’d get from anyone in charge of writing media. But I will say this; at the Arrow show runner is open to conversation. A and E would just shut you down

I would never be a CS shipper just because I enjoyed the poetic beauty of SF more, but if they hadn’t written CS the way the had–full of the “common” ways other couples are written–I would not have found it as distasteful as I do.

Happy Monday all. Going to be out all day.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

Dismissing that as silly fans just being angry about their ship, alienates an entire group of smart, capable viewers in the most insultingly patronizing way possible

This part cannot be emphasized enough. Thanks in large part to social media, the ideas about what exactly is wrong with our media landscape are being talked about not only with more frequency but also at lightening fast speeds. Ideas are decimating faster and with more accuracy. Showrunners enjoy interacting with their fans but are also alarmed at the kind incredibly smart discourses that are happening. We’re being to see how flawed TV and media are and instead of blind praise and simply “turning off when we turn on” we’re actively critiquing.

And the most frustrating thing about the criticism to the show is that it’s always met with condescension. Dismissed as just the complaints of bitter shippers

I was recently somewhat “attacked” (though really in the politest way possible) on my blog by someone who wrote, “I know you hate Hook for shipping reasons and that’s fine but you’re better than these double standards” (as I angrily spoke out about Hook’s last episode, 415). I had to inform this anon that I didn’t hate CS or Hook because I was an SF. I hated them for the way Hook and CS has been written. It’s not fair to simply label me as a hater based on something I prefer.

(and yes, by the same token, it’s not fair to say that someone hates SF only because they like CS)

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

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