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And that’s pretty much the answer you’d get from anyone in charge of writing media. But I will say this; at the Arrow show runner is open to conversation. A and E would just shut you down I would never be a CS shipper just because I enjoyed the poetic beauty of SF more, but if they hadn’t written CS the way the had–full of the “common” ways other couples are written–I would not have found it as distasteful as I do. Happy Monday all. Going to be out all day.
I was going to throw in a response, but y’all preempted most of my points 🙂 I just want to add to RG’s analysis that in contemporary US culture the dynamic of which CS is an example is also normalized through biological arguments (males have evolved to pursue; females are biologically programmed to be choosy etc… should sound familiar), which completely disregards the actual diversity of gender roles across cultures and epochs. But better feminists than I have written about this, so I’ll leave it at that.
But then after the first two seasons they began to TELL us things. Action, magic, special effects and “shock” became the standard. They’re more interested in telling us connections and relationships instead of showing us anything. (Belle and Will, I’m looking at you. What the what????) No time for character development? Just put in a few lines of exposition. Why talk about your problems when you can wave a sword at them or have a magic cure!
This! Although, honestly, I don’t find CS particularly offensive — bland, mind-numbingly banal, vaguely patronizing, yes, but not offensive necessarily. (Though I do think SF was more interesting, nuanced, and challenging.) But then again I also refuse to find Rumbelle quite as inherently offensive as I think I am supposed to at this point, or “Rogina” (OutlawQueen, is that the ship’s name) as ambivalent… Now, before I get yelled at here, let me explain. Good fiction is meant to show different relationships in all their messy, objectionable, and sometimes doomed glory and/or horror. The idea of romantic love (positively valenced for the most part, unlike, say, in Ancient Greece) has been around in our culture for a while, and it doesn’t look like it’s about to go anywhere, so fair enough. What I personally find deeply annoying in OUAT is the inbuilt, and often heavy-handed moralization of particular OUAT relationships, starting with S3, and therefore balk at its self-congratulatory moral economy. I think some of you have already said this: we are meant to cheer for CS, and meant to boo Rumbelle and to feel ambivalent or torn about OutlawQueen. I’m not sure what we’re meant to feel about the Charmings at this point. And I think we’re meant to have happily moved on from SF. And these emotions that are meant to be provoked are so abysmally, teeth-numbingly normative (but also mildly offensive, in the case of CS — as in, why is THAT the yardstick by which I’m supposed to measure true love?) that I can’t help feeling contrary, and sort of “hate-watching” as Josephine says, even though I also really would rather just “sink” into the show the way one could in the first couple of seasons.
But the bigger problem I think is that these characters, whether villains or heroes, no longer seem to have any motivations outside of the desire for relationships (whether familial or conjugal), or any possibility of individual growth outside of their particular social entanglements. They’re progressively being flattened out. The one notable “nod” to a character’s tastes is Belle and her books — but seriously, that’s a joke, and I can’t help feeling that it’s actually not an innocent or well-meaning joke on A&E’s part. Belle’s SB outfits and the whole “sexy librarian” thing, in combination with how her character has been written seems to suggest “Oh yes, and here’s the cute girl who likes books, she’s sort of dumb as a board despite this, but she’s nice, and most importantly, boys and girls, she’s eye candy.” #headdesk
Even in something as seemingly straight-arrow as Marvel’s Agents of Shield, there’s a sense of depth behind the characters (like, they might have hobbies and interests outside of the action/missions, they might have thoughts about the world, and while we might not be privy to them, they’re there). The problem, with OUAT, is that I think lazy writing leads to the show’s deeply problematic “politics” and morality.
Oh, and one last note, does anyone else find the accusation of irrational “shipping” (i.e shippers gonna hate) weirdly gendered?
[climbs off the soapbox]
Happy Monday.
[adrotate group="5"]But the bigger problem I think is that these characters, whether villains or heroes, no longer seem to have any motivations outside of the desire for relationships
Lordy Lord. THAT
“Oh yes, and here’s the cute girl who likes books, she’s sort of dumb as a board despite this, but she’s nice, and most importantly, boys and girls, she’s eye candy.” #headdesk
Oh yes. She is every nerdy boy’s fantasy of a librarian who dresses in the most impossibly un-librarian clothes ever but can talk to about all your nerd fantasies. At some point, they’ll have a close up of Bell chewing on the end of a pencil while leaning over and reading a book, the top buttons of her blouse undone. It’s so 1980s cliche.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"“Oh yes, and here’s the cute girl who likes books, she’s sort of dumb as a board despite this, but she’s nice, and most importantly, boys and girls, she’s eye candy.” #headdesk
Oh yes. She is every nerdy boy’s fantasy of a librarian who dresses in the most impossibly un-librarian clothes ever but can talk to about all your nerd fantasies. At some point, they’ll have a close up of Bell chewing on the end of a pencil while leaning over and reading a book, the top buttons of her blouse undone. It’s so 1980s cliche.
It’s also very sad. She sacrificed her future, her life, for the greater good of her people. Even in the Dark Castle, she spoke of higher goals in life. Her dream wasn’t to find a handsome man and live in a castle, although that was the future plotted out for her with Gaston. She wanted to explore the world. Her books by extension were a form of escapism. Rumple’s quote of “I’m not looking for love” was foreshadowing for certain, but it was also a honest statement applicable for both sides. She didn’t go into the deal thinking “Oh, if only I can make him fall in love with me.” In the present day, they don’t know how to get back to that Belle. They write her as vulnerable (kidnapped, shot, amnesia, alternate personality, etc…) and then alternately as a human version of “Google”. Her intelligence is used a plot device, not an authentic part of her character. And now they botched it so much that I, a once fervent Rumbeller, am now more ambivalent. I don’t have enough energy in me to hate the pairing. I’m just at a point I don’t care. And apathy is more damaging than love or hate.
I think many of us glommed onto SwanFire because it was story about second chances, redemption, and reconciliation. This wasn’t a couple who broke up because they couldn’t get along or one of them cheated on the other. They parted due to extreme, other-worldly circumstances. It delves into the ethical questions of personal happiness vs. the greater good (hmm, funny, Belle’s choice did too originally). Making the best choices with the resources available to you at the time. And it was poetic in the extreme…the reason for the curse and the curse’s savior coming together. It was a beautiful story. And scraped for a variety of reasons we’ve been theorizing for the past year.
*sniff* They’ve really ruined the “Stiltskin” men on this show. Now I’m just waiting for how they’ll ruin the last one. Will Henry be able to escape the demonization and destruction that his father and grandfather have gone through?
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
*sniff* They’ve really ruined the “Stiltskin” men on this show. Now I’m just waiting for how they’ll ruin the last one. Will Henry be able to escape the demonization and destruction that his father and grandfather have gone through?
That all depends on whether Henry becoming the next Author means he gets to rewrite his own happy ending or whether he has to give everyone else their happy endings. Remember Henry’s idea of a happy ending in S2 was him, Emma and Neal all getting a castle together in the Enchanted Forest. I’m pretty sure Henry would now include his adoptive mother into the mix. However, now Henry’s dad is dead, and his moms are both dating guys that Henry, at best, seems ambivalent about. We don’t know if he likes Robin. Does he like Hook? He said he didn’t. Does Henry have to sacrifice what makes him happy over what makes Emma happy? Henry said he didn’t like Hook and never did. Henry told Emma early in S4 he wasn’t really okay with her dating Hook but that he wanted her to be happy. If Henry continues with that train of thought of putting his mother’s apparent happiness first, then he tentatively is forced to put up with Hook, despite disliking him. Henry has effectively become the more mature in his relationship with his birth mother by putting her needs and desires ahead of his own — something which the parent ideally does instead by putting the child’s best interests first.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
*sniff* They’ve really ruined the “Stiltskin” men on this show. Now I’m just waiting for how they’ll ruin the last one. Will Henry be able to escape the demonization and destruction that his father and grandfather have gone through?
That all depends on whether Henry becoming the next Author means he gets to rewrite his own happy ending or whether he has to give everyone else their happy endings. Remember Henry’s idea of a happy ending in S2 was him, Emma and Neal all getting a castle together in the Enchanted Forest. I’m pretty sure Henry would now include his adoptive mother into the mix. However, now Henry’s dad is dead, and his moms are both dating guys that Henry, at best, seems ambivalent about. We don’t know if he likes Robin.
Henry said “COOL!” when he first met Robin Hood….he’s A-Okay with OutlawQueen & Hood-Mills Family! #Step-Papa Hood 🙂
As for Hook…well….we know his true feelings about that. #Anti Step-Papa Hook -_-
And I think Season 4 Henry has evolved quite a lot since Season 2 since his whole Neverland adventure…he may be just fine with getting Emma and Neal a place right next to mom’s house…they could be just like the Rubbles and the Flinstones! 🙂
I’m so hoping for Henry to be rooting for Storybrooke, and not the Enchanted Forest where he’d have to walk miles upon miles just to get to Emma and Neal’s castle!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
And I think Season 4 Henry has evolved quite a lot since Season 2 since his whole Neverland adventure…
I hated season 2 Henry. He was such a whiny self-entitled brat. He annoyed me so much that when he tried to blow up magic with the dynamite, I was rooting for the dynamite. The way he toyed with Regina was awful too. Neverland was such a wasted opportunity for showing Henry actually doing something to try and help himself instead of being a gullible fool who just sat around waiting to be rescued only to then screw it up by believing Pan when he’d been doubting him only one episode before.
Season 4 Henry is more tolerable but he is effectively a walking talking plot device. What purpose did he serve in the shop scene in 311 with Belle other than to knock stuff off shelves so Belle could find the gauntlet and leave again. Henry and Emma didn’t actually speak to each other in 4A until about four episodes in.
Will was right about Hook using Henry to get in with Emma. In 3B, Hook was constantly babysitting Henry at Emma’s request. Since CS have officially been together, Hook has spent zero time with Henry and Henry even admitted he didn’t like Hook and Hook didn’t give a damn.
Henry’s screentime now is primarily with Regina rather than Emma….because heaven forbid he stand in the way of CS.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI need to go to bed or I’ve just been reading too much Austen or both. I caught myself plotting out SF as Persuasion. For those not familiar with the story, it’s the tale of Anne Elliot who is persuaded to give up her first love, Frederick Wentworth, by a close family friend, Lady Russell. Skip ahead years later and he’s now Captain Wentworth and Anne is thrown once again into the melee with him. In Once version, Anne would actually be Neal, Lady Russell is August, Emma is Capt. Wentworth since August convinced Neal to leave Emma. Oooh, Hook can be the sneaky Cousin William and we’ll throw Milah in as Mrs. Clay. I am NOT writing this. I’m not mad, just really tired and reading too much of Jane Austen lately.
Good night.
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
I need to go to bed or I’ve just been reading too much Austen or both. I caught myself plotting out SF as Persuasion. For those not familiar with the story, it’s the tale of Anne Elliot who is persuaded to give up her first love, Frederick Wentworth, by a close family friend, Lady Russell. Skip ahead years later and he’s now Captain Wentworth and Anne is thrown once again into the melee with him. In Once version, Anne would actually be Neal, Lady Russell is August, Emma is Capt. Wentworth since August convinced Neal to leave Emma. Oooh, Hook can be the sneaky Cousin William and we’ll throw Milah in as Mrs. Clay. I am NOT writing this. I’m not mad, just really tired and reading too much of Jane Austen lately. Good night.
Write it.
Happy Tuesday!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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