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Jessica Jones offers a conscious metacommentary on this. You can see Killgrave constantly attempt this re-centering — the ‘what about me and my pain’ — only to have Jessica systematically shoot these attempts down.
Yes yes yes.
The problem comes in that Twilight’s readership have likely never been in a romantic relationship themselves and therefore their perception of what a relationship should be like is influenced by the media they consume such as books, television, films and magazines, not to mention real life situations eg a child growing up in a family whose parents have a healthy and loving marriage/relationship are likely to hold that as the standard on what a good relationship should be like.
I wouldn’t blanket Twilght’s readership as such. Ever hear of Twilight Moms? They are rabid. I read it and I’ve had romantic relationships. My mom read it and she has had romantic relationships. Same with my friends and a good % of the readership. And I can tell you first hand that until I really began to think about it, I thought Twilight WAS a love story. I was blinded by it, just like everyone else. It’s only cultural perception that thinks Twilight fandom is *only* or mostly young inexperienced girls who “don’t know better.” But that’s far from the truth. It’s not a matter of experience. It’s a matter of the systemic and continuous perpetuation that when it comes to romance, women should expect X where X = being made into objects of male desire and that they should accept several questionable practices like stalking, abuse (emotional and physical).
As for this “blank slate” approach being brilliant…well. I guess, but it’s literally how all YA supernatural sagas are written (and I’ve read probably 85% of them…) where the girl is almost a blank slate for reader insertion and the “hero” is a deeply troubled antihero with a lot of manpain who treats the girl somewhat roughly but how it’s deeply romantic.
Most shows that depict a woman in an abusive relationship would do their best to show why she should get out the relationship and how she can do that.
Mmm. I disagree with “most.” There’s a reason why rape culture is *such* a big topic in criticism right now and it’s not because most TV shows are combating it. It’s because they keep perpetuating it, some to huge extents (ONCE) and some to lesser ones.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I always misremember Hook as being played by Alan Rickman.
Apparently Alan Rickman did play Hook in something.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICSo I know I’ve talked about Jessica Jones quite a bit in here over the past few months, but I thought I’d just leave these two quotes here. Because they might (are) relevant. Like a lot.
“Saving someone doesn’t mean unkilling someone else.” — Jessica to Kilgrave, Jessica Jones
“You don’t get credit for doing the right thing for the wrong reason.” — Jessica, Jessica JonesI started watching that btw
But now I am into ouat season 1… i just finished desperate souls. It is interesting to note that the one episode where we see elections, and the same episode where we see henry claim that good cant win because good PLAYS FAIR, and where heroes like emma expose an illegal fire and WIN, is the same episode where in the ef, the peasants were so down trotted that the only option was so sell their soul to the devil if they wanted to save their child…Can I just say that I love you all here in SF? I mean, I love how I can come to this thread and have a conversation about Tolstoy or Jane Austen, while also b***-ing about OUAT’s epic fails, and getting delightful MRJ gifsets. Yay SF! Y’all rock.
By making Bella so blank, the young female reader would subconsciously insert themselves into that role and thus would care about Bella that much more and be invested in the success of that relationship.
Oh, that’s absolutely right. I suppose I was trying to point out why, exactly, the particular species of Twilight love story is so problematic. In a sense, I think it’d be problematic even if Edward were a decent guy. The problem is that a) the “oompf” of Twilight relies on the eroticization of an egregious power differential (i.e. it’s a form of statutory rape) and b) Bella is simply ancillary / an accessory to the only relationship of the books that matters, which is the one between Jacob and Edward. But it’s all packaged as if it were about Bella. So as young audiences absorb the message, what sediments is a very particular idea about gender norms, which elevates Bella’s passivity and lack of perceivable agency to a virtue of character, and a desirable trait in a romantic partner. With very few exceptions, most of the paranormal romance fiction (books or movies) share this trope. Except for Jim Jarmousch’s Only Lovers Left Alive, which , if you’re a fan of Tom Hiddleston or Tilda Swinton, and haven’t seen it, consider watching it. (Do it. Do it now!)
I disagree. I think that as long as a guy is hot, people will still ship him with somebody. Even if he is an absolute arsehole, the female protagonist will be shipped with him because he’s misunderstood, he can change for the better with love, he just needs someone to care about him, etc etc.
*sigh* You may be right. But I also think “hotness” is itself a carefully constructed project, and part of a show’s overall message about any given character. Many talented actors are versatile and can pull off any range of things, from heartthrob to repulsive degenerate. Think, I don’t know, Johnny Depp, who has done anything from straight up romance roles to utterly bizarre whacko ones. Or Charlize Theron. I mean, we don’t even have to look too far – if you look at Bobby’s career, there have been roles where he played an attractive character, and others where he played an utterly repulsive psychopath, equally convincingly.
All this to say, Hook is absolutely being “Fabio-ized” on OUAT, in a way that should be getting a good chortle out of anyone who’s at all familiar with these romance tropes. I mean, down to the costume. But that’s the point — this is a conscious project on the part of the show makers, not just an inherent feature of the actor. Might Colin look differently if he were in a different role? Absolutely. If he can land something that doesn’t typecast him as the pretty boy, I’ve no doubt he’ll rise to the occasion. That’s what these actors/actresses are trained to do — it’s their job.
Which is to say, “hotness” is itself a message. It’s — look, this character is hot, you (as the audience) will respond to him/her in a certain way. And this is where, going to @Slurpeez ‘ earlier comment about War and Peace (sorry I’m not direct-quoting), there is always a meta-message. What are we to make of this hotness? With Anna and Vronsky, or Natasha and Anatole — the meta message for Tolstoy is something like “beware of the facile, physical infatuation” (Tolstoy of course was a deeply religious man, even if his particular interpretation of Christianity was a bit peculiar by the standards of his time and society). Point is, he was preoccupied with things like desire, sin, and consequence. But OUAT, for all its “borrowing” from Christian mythology (in its unique pot pourri approach), actually has a whole range of double standards at play which essentially say what’s good for the goose, is not necessarily good for the gander. The particularly outrageous part about these distinctions is that they run along race, gender, class, age, and physical attractiveness lines. (Hence, for example, the strikingly different treatment of Hook and Rumple, for all their similarities).
@NEVERMORE What are their similarities?
I don’t necessarily have a problem with people shipping a hot guy and the female protagonist simply because “he’s hot.” I mean you can have a wide variety of ships in pop culture. You can have actual romantic pairings that are real and meaningful. You can have Crack ships. You can have “dark” ships that deliberately tread into the more dangerous and sinister side of human nature (most of the those pair nicely with AU fics). You can virtually anything in fandom culture. My bigger issue is when people ship something but refuse to recognize why their ship is problematic or refuse to recognize and acknowledge that the message of that particular ship is culturally and socially dangerous.
So yes, POM is right to an extent that people will always ship the hot guy with a female protagonist because of something shallow like looks. That’s…okay, I guess. But the bigger issue is when the CSers and, probably more importantly, the show runners and writers can’t see that the message of the ship they are selling is deeply troubling on a feminist level, on a human level–emotionally, physically, emotionally and culturally.
But I also think “hotness” is itself a carefully constructed project, and part of a show’s overall message about any given character.
And then there’s that which is 100% spot on. Colin is a nice looking man. When he takes off the coat and the eyeliner he’s still nice (but mostly average) looking guy. It’s…well, it’s that Fabio-iziation @Nevermore talked about that suddenly makes him Ovary-explosion worthy (apparently). And the opposite is the same as well. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve read that it’s 100% okay for Baelfire to be dead because MRJ was not “hot” and did meet the surface expectations of what a true love for the main heroine should look like. It’s amazing Rumbelle has the fans it does; and it comes down to Bobby and Emilie’s chemistry and a tour de force first episode (Skin Deep). Had Bobby and Emilie not had phenomenal on screen chemistry and had Skin Deep been less compelling, I don’t know that Rumbelle would have become the powerhouse fandom ship it did (and, be fair, one of the biggest pre-season 4 criticism I’ve seen of Rumbelle, is that Rumple is *too old* for Belle. Note: I find this hilarious given that Hook is north of 200 for Emma.)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"While I loved the new Star Wars, I was disturbed to discover that certain people somehow ship Rey with Kylo Ren, after he tortured her, tried to kill her, and killed his own father. It’s just unfathomable to me.
This exactly. Right here. It just squicks me. Almost as much as CS. I am also disturbed by the Kylo Ren fandom for the same reasons. My guess: the same people that ship CS ship Reylo.
Today’s romance goals are truly disturbing to me….like seriously, when did abuse become considered an act of love? What the hell is going on in today’s society….is it a domination fetish girls today are having. where being humiliated, beaten, stalked, and/or degraded is a major turn on?
And you mean to tell me that there are people out there who really ship Kylo and Rey? Besides the obvious reasons why they really couldn’t work, aren’t they siblings or something?? I thought I saw something sparking between Finn and Rey….it wasn’t confirmed, but there were some sparks.
I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve read that it’s 100% okay for Baelfire to be dead because MRJ was not “hot” and did meet the surface expectations of what a true love for the main heroine should look like.
Everytime I see a an Anti SF post that says MRJ is ugly or unnactractive, I think:
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Except for Jim Jarmousch’s Only Lovers Left Alive, which , if you’re a fan of Tom Hiddleston or Tilda Swinton, and haven’t seen it, consider watching it. (Do it. Do it now!)
Yeah, I’ve seen this, I recommend as well. Needed a bit more action for my liking but still good and gosh Tom Hiddleston! Why is this man not considered an illegal drug.
Funnily enough, Tom Hiddleson also played Captain Hook.
@NEVERMORE What are their similarities?
They both had to suffer the lost of the people they loved (Liam, Mila, Bae). They both turned to darkness over losing someone they loved (for Hook, it was Mila, for Rump it was Bae). They both continue to struggle with their darkness after finding love once more (Hook with Emma, Rump with Bae).
You can have “dark” ships that deliberately tread into the more dangerous and sinister side of human nature (most of the those pair nicely with AU fics).
I’m happy to know you’re okay with me still shipping Cora/Rumple :3 #DarkHeart
Colin is a nice looking man. When he takes off the coat and the eyeliner he’s still nice (but mostly average) looking guy.
But on this show, the guyliner makes the man.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC(Sigh) Imagine Neal escaping the Underworld and the end of Season 5 is this:
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
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