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@NEVERMORE What are their similarities?
Superficially, there are many structural … maybe not similarities, but parallels that appear to be consciously used to contrast and compare Hook and Rumple (and their respective arcs/relationships) on OUAT. Both have strong father abandonment issues, with mom entierely out of the picture. Both are “villains” with a low sense of self-worth, both have been in love with the same woman (Milah). Both have a physical handicap which is at once a source of self-identification, and a justification for various (negative) actions. Both are part of structurally unequal romantic pairings, where the sheer temporal and hence experiential “advantage” that the guy has on the woman makes for a relationship that’s potentially severely off-balance. Arguably — an ironically — Belle has been better at “standing her ground” than Emma has, or at least has been more aware of Rumple’s problematic nature. Both are struggling with [presumably inherently] evil or negative (or weak) character traits.
With Neal out of the picture, Rumple and Hook become ever more fungible. This is because Rumple’s character without the relationship with his son is an older, less “glamorous” version of Hook, essentially. While Neal was still at the core of Rumple’s character, this wasn’t an issue. Hook is the resentful man-child archetype. If you want to get Freudian, he is, almost literally, Oedipus. Rumple wasn’t just that — he was also the flawed father archetype himself, which made him so compelling: he was both father and son, and this was an absolute stroke of genius in rethinking the mythologies with which OUAT was playing. 3B completed his story perfectly because it resolves both of those plot threads.
I think for many folks writing here, this aspect of Rumple is still important, and colors how we interpret the character — but it doesn’t seem like that’s the case across the board. And it looks like A&E would have us forget this as quickly as we can.
However, as Neal recedes ever further towards OUAT’s amnesiac horizon, Rumple is increasingly crammed into the “man-child” (egotistic sociopath) mold himself, without the adolescent charm. The problem is that Bobby still keeps infusing the character with other dimensions, which are probably not even there in the script, or in the show writers’ intent. To recycle what I think is Lily Sparks’ comment, he’s just too subtle an actor for what this show has become. But from the writing perspective, OUAT has now saddled itself with two extremely similar characters, so they’re either stuck in the position of having to go the simplistic route of “this one GOOD, this one BAD”, or to have redundant storylines.
Sadly, the writing team no longer seems to have the creativity to write themselves out of this otherwise idiotic impasse. But I think the reception from the fandom of these two different characters is quite telling. I am sometimes utterly floored with the leeway that Hook gets from the fandom (including, sometimes, from some of the main participants of the podcast here). I sincerely don’t understand how Hook can be “heroified” while Rumple is “vilified” to the degree that they are, by both the show and the fandom. My point is simply that, at this point in the show, they are largely redundant from a writer’s perspective. If OUAT were a novel, and someone approached me to beta-read it, I’d say something like “But you already have a woobiefied bad boy. Why d’you need another, more simplistic one?” Point is, abstract yourself from the physicalities of the actors, and you have the same “species” of character.
Also, everything @WickedRegal said. That. Right. There.
[adrotate group="5"]I think that as long as a guy is hot, people will still ship him with somebody. Even if he is an absolute arsehole, the female protagonist will be shipped with him because he’s misunderstood, he can change for the better with love, he just needs someone to care about him, etc etc. It’s a well known trope called “Draco in leather pants” and often goes hand in hand with “Ron the deatheater” ie the bad boy is woobified into “just needs love” whilst the more heroic character is vilified.
Tv tropes has more detail
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEaterWe actually discussed this particular trope in regard to the HP fandom last week. I seem to be seeing it more often, this issue for HP of Weasley-bashing and Slytherin-worshiping. It’s a disturbing trend on tumblr. This also led to an interesting discussion on the romanticizing of Snape. Snape was essentially the Sidney Carton (Tale of Two Cities…required reading if you haven’t read it) of HP. In my opinion, if the showrunners had gone with their original story, then Hook would have also had this role. Yet for various reasons, he morphed from this Carton-esque character to the hero of the story. A jump that should never have happened. Carton did NOT get Lucie Manette in the end, and I still believe it was never the original intent of Emma to end up with Hook.
One positive thing about this is that the trolls will never touch our beloved classic literature. They might use Frankenstein but they’ll never flirt with Austen or Dickens. They’re a bit too cerebral for the Once audience. My Lizzy and Darcy are safe.
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
There is one major problem with ouat that doesnt happen with 50SoG, twilight, even with The vampire diaries, the cast actually speaks against their characters decisions, was very known that Kirsten, Robert hated some of their characters acts in twilight, the same goes to dakota and jamie and to Ian, nina, paul, etc, they dont hide, they still sell their projects but they dont hide that if was up to them, the characters would act in a diferent, so in a way i think the media refrains a bit about those, but in OUAT the cast and people involved, act like the writing is amazing, all was planned since forever, there are actually character development and ouat sends some great message to the viewers, so that makes Media actually praise it, bc no way they will go against the cast, since they think this actually make sense.
Reason why Bobby deserves all support, he is the only one that says he is only for the money, he says that they change storylines from one episode to another so no reason to prepare the character, he hated neal death, and im sorry RB fans ,is my onipion that he even tho he loves and respects the fans he is not fan of RB, bc they made his character all about ship now, i mean the fans vent more when RB breaks that they did with the Bae /Rumple storyline that was never developed, reason why there is also a sort of war bwt Dearies and RB, most of all why he thinks that Rumple doesnt deserve a happy ending, he is true to his opinion and he doesnt trash some characters to support his character like JMo ussually does."I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
Also have to say that something i saw in ouat fandom against Neal was that many of the fandom saw True blood, and in their heads Neal was Rene, i saw many people actually saying that Sf could never happen bc Neal actor used to play a serial killer, and i even saw fans saying Neal is ugly but MRJ is hot, that is how this fandom is mess up, also Colin previous jobs were done in Uk, so he was unknown of the fandom in US, so he arrived only with the bad boy vibe. Also, i have to say when the Cs buzz started, when was simply a buzz, there was someone that made that buzz grow, and was Meghan, she actually said in one interview that Hook and Ruby would be hot together, but he was hot with Emma, that they have some hot vibes, that was enough for the buzz to become something bigger and for the csers starting wanting more.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
But from the writing perspective, OUAT has now saddled itself with two extremely similar characters, so they’re either stuck in the position of having to go the simplistic route of “this one GOOD, this one BAD”, or to have redundant storylines.
Yes, especially now that both of them have sacrificed their lives for the town/people they love. When Rumple died, it was only Belle (true love) and Nealfire (son) who tried to bring back Rumple. But they love him more than anyone. With Hook, however, it’s the whole gang, from Emma (the girlfriend) to her parents Snow and Charming, even to Regina and Robin. Everyone was willing to let Rumple stay dead, Emma refused to let Rumple bring back Neal because “he died a hero, don’t take that away from him” but for the pirate it’s “not fair to Killian” to let him die/stay dead. The implication being that Hook is far more worthy to be alive than either Rumple and/or Neal.
And of course, having Rumple be the Dark One AGAIN when he had just become a hero and pulled Excalibur is A and E’s not so subtle way of saying that Rumple is just a black hat, always going to be a black hat, and nothing more.
We actually discussed this particular trope in regard to the HP fandom last week. I seem to be seeing it more often, this issue for HP of Weasley-bashing and Slytherin-worshiping.
Yes we did 🙂
I think a lot of it has to do with time and distance. There are no more books, but people keep re-reading and are now influenced by new stories, movies, and TV that more and more are heroizing the villains/antiheroes to an absurd extent. People start to see the flaws in Ron and make them his defining characteristic instead of just part of a nuanced and complicated person. And vice versa, people see a few good (noble) traits in Draco and begin to make those traits everything Draco is, while forgetting how the horrible cruelty he inflicted over the years.
In my opinion, if the showrunners had gone with their original story, then Hook would have also had this role.
I will always wonder if the writers intended Hook to die in NVL. It keeps with original Barrie canon and it would make sense for the man who sold Bae to Pan to give his life ensuring that Bae’s son got home. It would be circular.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@wickedRegal you ship dark/heart?? I thouht i was the only one 🙂
I think the main reason i ship Cora with Rumple is because she is w refreshing new prespective on Rumple.
While everyone on the show keeps calling him a coward, belitteling him, thinking he is only interested in collecting power and nothing else, Cora sees him as the man he actuwlly is. She said “really, Rumple, hiding is beneath you” when he was dying in his back room and Emma made the protection spell, remember? She also came to his shop for a truce, she will find Regina undisturbed, and she gave him the globe to find his son. Showing that she knew what he was all about, and it was not collecting power, but finding his son. The parallels between Cora’s manipulation of her daughter and Rumple’s fear of his son not accepting him were starking. Cora is so smooth with poor Regina, while Rumple completely falls apart and has no clue what to say, how to ask forgiveness…
@nevermore, wow, from what you are saying… reducing Rumple’s complex and fascinating character to a woobified villain, just like another Hook…. i don’t know what to say… i am glad i stopped watchingSpeaking of watching, i just watched “true north” of season 1, and by gawd! The way Emma right away thought about finding these childrens father, it was like she projected her own situation onto the twins’. When Henry asked if she has something of his father’s, she said no. (Haha) but this sentimentality is what gave her the idea that the mother must have kept SOMETHING to remember their father… just like she had… she obviously loved Neal throughout season one…
By the way, out of curiousity, what are hooks father abandionment issues? Are they as bad as peter pan? Or as bad as Jafar? What have these writers DONE to their beautiful show, what?? Hook is now a poor dear who was brutally abandoned?
By the way, out of curiousity, what are hooks father abandionment issues? Are they as bad as peter pan? Or as bad as Jafar? What have these writers DONE to their beautiful show, what?? Hook is now a poor dear who was brutally abandoned?
Hook’s father was on the run with this sons, decided he was better off running alone and sold his two boys to a ships captain. He then, somehow, fell into a sleeping curse, was awakened by TLK of some random nurse whom he later married, had a third son (Liam 2.0) with, all before the nurse died. Hook killed his father.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Back in season 3 there was some rumours from someone that used to say that was part of the crew, at least that was what this person said in tumblr, that hook was supposed to be the one dying by killing pan, but abc said no when they were almost at the end of the 1st arc, I would say that I believe this, and I guess this changed happened when cs was nom for pca for couple with best chemistry. Abc saw that the public like it so they said keep hook and kill Neal.
Also, one question for those who saw it, how was that hook father knew that Liam 1.0 was dead if he was in a sleeping curse? Also since when Ef has nurses?
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
Yeah, I’ve seen this, I recommend as well. Needed a bit more action for my liking but still good and gosh Tom Hiddleston! Why is this man not considered an illegal drug.
A question I too like to ponder 😛
What have these writers DONE to their beautiful show, what??
Honestly, at this point my sense of OUAT is something like this:
Seriously. It’s like the former-loved-one-turned-zombie that against all common reason you keep around. So you lock it in the shed, where it shambles aimlessly, occasionally makes weird groaning noises, and keeps trying to eat your brains whenever you come by to feed it.
Here’s what the SF thread is in this analogy–
You share the duties of caring for the ZombOUAT (ZOUAT?) with a bunch of others who still feel an emotional attachment to the original entity. There’s a bunch of people who’ve since moved on – moved out of the house, if you will — but still come by to bring cookies, booze, and offer moral support. You take turns feeding ZOUAT chicken brains, but mostly hang out, talk about the nature of zombiehood, whether you think there’s a cure, and whether the original personality is till “in there.” And about the various vagaries of its decomposition process.
Hoping against all hope that maybe you’ll wake up one day and the thing in the shed will have snapped out of it. But really, we all know that we’re just binding time until it finally expires.
All along you also know that no cure is coming, and it’d be a mercy to you and to it to just put the damned thing down.
Happy Sunday. 😛
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