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The fact that he was the dark one only when he was told and there is no indication for it bothers me because it is just a cheap shock value twist, it is obvious that it wasn’t planned to be that way
No doubt man. Honestly that was the biggest problem I had. How on Earth does he not remember being the dark one? I get that his memories were wiped, but since when do dreamcatchers have the ability to makes dark ones forget they are dark ones? That was the biggest issue I had.
Rumple did not murder anyone to our knowledge (you can speculate but canonically within the story, he did not).
Didn’t he like kill some people in the woods in an episode where Bae realized that kids wouldn’t hang out with him because they feared his father so much? Maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure he killed people. And I’m not gonna argue that what Hook did as the DO in like a day wasn’t way worse than what Rumple had ever done. Because it was. But I think that shows the kind of person they both were before being the DO. Rumple was not a bad man. Hook was, and he has had to try and become good again (not gonna argue whether the writers have sold us on this plot point of Hook redemption or not because obviously there are some flaws). But it would make sense to me, I think, for Hook to be worse, not necessarily because he is still a bad man, but because he once was, and the DO brings out the worst in you, and Hook was always way worse than Rumple pre DO.
I can never forgive Hook telling Emma that she’ll always be an orphan and Emma just standing there taking it, being his emotional punching bag. Rumple could be cold or manipulative but you never saw him talk to Belle that way when he was the DO, either in the EF or in SB.
This, I felt, the writers went too far. Like even if the darkness was stronger in Hook because Hook used to be a terrible person, this was just too far. I agree. Like how can the writers have us believe that this love with Emma is true if he’s going to say things like that. That’s deep rooted stuff that clearly he still harbors. Once they had Hook get that personal, they should have killed him off. Why do we want to save him now? As you said, Rumple never would say that to Belle when he was the DO. I think the writers wanted us to believe what I said above, that because he was a bad man before, it was easy for the darkness to manipulate that, but you can’t just have Hook say something like that, with no fight in him at all, and then have us feel like we should save him. Honestly, it’s more bad writing than anything else.
[adrotate group="5"]Didn’t he like kill some people in the woods in an episode where Bae realized that kids wouldn’t hang out with him because they feared his father so much? Maybe I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure he killed people.
Re-read what I wrote:
After the initial taking on of the DO’s curse and the first few months, Rumple did not murder anyone to our knowledge
*AFTER* he took on the curse and the first months, he stopped murdering (ie: he killed in the initial few months). Specifically after he lost Bae, he stopped.
But it would make sense to me, I think, for Hook to be worse, not necessarily because he is still a bad man, but because he once was, and the DO brings out the worst in you, and Hook was always way worse than Rumple pre DO.
I certainly don’t deny this. But one of them is being lauded as a hero and worthy of saving. That’s the issue. Not that Hook is worse than Rumple or vice versa. But that one of them-we are being told– is a hero and in a relationship with the heroine, a relationship that is being touted as healthy and something we should all strive for. That’s my issue. They want this emotionally abusive relationship to be seen as romantic. It’s bad writing, as you say later, but it’s not just that. It’s being totally disconnected from any sense of feminism, morality, or understanding of current discourse in our society viz a viz the intersection of media and society.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It’s bad writing, as you say later, but it’s not just that. It’s being totally disconnected from any sense of feminism, morality, or understanding of current discourse in our society viz a viz the intersection of media and society.
Maybe, I just think that’s a little harsh. I think the writers just screwed this up. They wanted us to really believe that Hook had no control over what he was doing. And that we are just supposed to forget what he said and did as the DO, so now that he isn’t the dark one, we should want to save him. This did not land. And to me, that’s bad writing. As far as the disconnection with feminism, morality, etc., I just don’t know. Like, Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness. We are not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive if he couldn’t control what he was saying/doing. Which is why for me, I’m not like offended by it or anything. It was just poor execution and writing because we all clearly do feel like it is abusive because we don’t feel like the darkness would just make someone say/do horrible things like that because it wasn’t this dark with Rumple.
It’s important to remember what the writers are trying to make us feel and what they actually are making us feeling. The relationship is not SUPPOSED to be abusive. We are SUPPOSED to feel bad for Hook because he really wouldn’t want to say/do these things. So when Emma finally “kills” him, and relieves him of his struggle (after seemingly overcoming it and saving everyone), we are SUPPOSED to want Emma to save him, not think why she is going after someone who abuses her. But because of bad writing, it doesn’t stick. But as a fan, I’m trying to look at it the way the writers want us to look at it, otherwise the show won’t make sense. So if they want to tell me that the darkness really did make Hook say/do those things, and that he truly does care for her, I have to go along with it otherwise saving him and the back half of this season will make zero sense.
Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness.What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship. (Speaking on Buffy, they did an episode about it -304)
I don’t care what they writers intended for it to be, I don’t think they even put any thought to it. I’m calling what I saw on screen, what other people saw and what younger people see as a relationship that the show depicts as ideal.
"All your questions are pointless"
What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship.
Yes, but in real life, people aren’t literally being controlled by a “dark force” that was transferred into their body through a magical sword from Camelot. To compare it to real life abusive relationships doesn’t really seem fair. The writers are trying to make us believe that he literally had no control over what he was doing. If he literally can’t control it, it’s not fair to loop him into the category of “abusive boyfriends.” If he was always abusive, but just controlled it better when he wasn’t the DO, then ok. But he was not like that with Emma pre DO. This felt like it came out of nowhere. They want us to believe this darkness forced him to do these things. I think there is a difference. Not downplaying abusive relationships here, and I do see the parallel you are trying to make, it’s just this show is way too cray cray for me to think logically about it and attempt to compare it to actual real life relationships.
Maybe, I just think that’s a little harsh
Hook and Emma are not the only example. They are the ones that get talked about most here, but there are plenty of others. How about Zelena and Robin? Regina and Graham? How about their treatment of rape in general? Of POC? Of the LGBT community? How about Emma and Regina’s main storylines getting reduced to their love stories? How about the latest episode with Rumple and Belle?
Like, Emma truly feels like it’s her fault that Hook did those things as the DO (he did tell her not to make him one), and she truly feels what he said and did as the DO was not his fault and that it was simply the darkness. We are not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive if he couldn’t control what he was saying/doing
Of course we’re not supposed to view it as emotionally abusive. That doesn’t mean it’s not. Just like the writers killing off, making evil, making white, or making irrelevant the various PoC characters they’ve had isnt intentional racism because A and E hate PoC. It’s unintentional and uniformed racism. Just like their treatment of CS falls into the rape culture traps—but, just so you don’t misunderstand me–it’s also the same traps that a lot of media falls into. The conversation being had by on social media sites and by concerned individuals and groups isn’t just OUAT related, it’s media related.
But as a fan, I’m trying to look at it the way the writers want us to look at it, otherwise the show won’t make sense.
And sure that’s one way to view media. But I personally don’t think it’s a valid one. It’s fine to be a fan, but it’s another to be a fan and to try and rationalize some truly appalling decisions. For example, I am an avid Doctor Who fan. Have been for years and years–classic and NuWho. I do not approve of a lot of the most recent seasons. I have been pointing out the show runner’s (Steven Moffat) faults in story lines, misogyny, and disregard for canon, emotional resolution, ect for quite awhile. Same goes for me and Sleepy Hollow–a show I adore with all my heart, but have NO problems pointing out that they’ve got a bit of a white-woman fetish when it comes to “spicing” it up with their otherwise diverse cast who do no need any interjection from other characters.
But I still watch, love, and analyze both shows.
If I were to look at OUAT only the way the writers want me to, then I’m only getting one half of the conversation. It’s a one sided conversation because it means that my input and critique (or praise!) means nothing. We’re back to the reason why we still watch–because I think this show speaks to a lot of social problems in our world and I like to talk about those.
I guess it comes down to where you stand on the philosophical question of it the author is dead or not and what is text. For me, text is everything that is written about the show including this comment right here. A and E (and other writing staff) are not “gods” (in terms of the philosophical question, not an infallible sense) who have the final word on what is good, bad, and appropriate in their show. They might create the original text but everything that exists around it is text and equally valid.
What you depicted here is the “battered wife syndrom”. She did something that pissed off her boyfriend, and he becomes violent towards her or other people, instead of putting the blame on him, she blames herself for making him angry. This is a syndrom that is common in abusive relationship. (Speaking on Buffy, they did an episode about it -304)
I don’t know how many times we’ve posted this in various places but: the abuse wheel
I won’t bother making a list of all the times we’ve seen Hook use some of these on Emma. It wold be far too long. But, for what it’s worth, not all of those instances happen when he’s the DO.
I don’t think they even put any thought to it. I’m calling what I saw on screen, what other people saw and what younger people see as a relationship that the show depicts as ideal.
For me it’s far more than that they don’t even think about it. You can’t think about something you don’t realize is a problem. They have fallen into pretty typical depictions of men and women that exist in media. They are problematic depictions. Greatly problematic. But until they recognize that these depictions are problematic, then they won’t course correct. I don’t want to start talking about privilege because that’s a whole other issue but in media like TV it is often very hard for white heterosexual men to write compelling healthy relationships because they don’t understand that some of the things they’ve been shown and told are romantic…aren’t. But they sit in a place of privilege and don’t have to confront what it feels like to be stalked, abused, toyed with, made into objects.
Again, I point to Jessica Jones as something everyone should be watching. (broken record, I know)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"If he was always abusive, but just controlled it better when he wasn’t the DO, then ok. But he was not like that with Emma pre DO.
Yes he was. There are too many instances of Hook being emotionally, mentally, and physically abusive to Emma for me to list–the onus is on someone else because I’ll likely get ALL CAPS as I type because Hook’s interactions with Emma over the years makes me *twitchy^
But there are many instances of him using that wheel I posted against Emma pre-DO-status.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"You would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it.
Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind?
You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return.
IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”.
A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixYeah, I suppose I don’t analyze quite like some of you do. I’m more along the lines of “going along for the ride” type person. I can certainly point out its flaws in canon and within the show itself, but I try not to compare it to the real world because most of the time, it’s so dramatized that I can’t fairly compare it. Obviously there are things you can point out that characters say and do, but I try to separate myself from real life and just view it as something that is entertaining me on the television screen.
But yes you are right. The Zelena and Robin example is of course valid. Regina and Graham also valid. At least with these women, they knowingly and in total control, in a sense, raped these men. I just feel like the Hook situation is a little different.
However I will say, and this is kind of a different topic here, I do not have any problem with television shows depicting these types of scenes if it is essential or important to the story. Unfortunately, rape happens in our culture. It is a horrible horrible thing. In the case with Regina, we were supposed to hate her. So her treatment and manipulation of Graham made us despise her. It served a purpose. Whereas you could argue in Game of Thrones, the Sansa scene seemed unnecessary. As long as the show isn’t condoning this awful behavior, I’m not offended by it. I don’t believe they condoned Regina or Zelena’s behavior. Now if you want to say they are condoning Hook’s alleged bad abusive behavior, then fair enough. I would argue against the abusiveness, but there is no doubt the showing is at some level saying his behavior is ok, and I never felt they did that with Regina or Zelena.
The moral event horizon for each viewer is likely different but mine (for Hook) is another indefensible comment that more often than not gets turned into a romantic line by his fans.
My own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me. The writers thought it was a clever little line and really pun-tastic, and CS fans ate it up and called it witty, charming, and super hot. The CS fans also excuse it as “well, Emma and Hook were on different sides, so it’s perfectly fine to talk to someone that way.”
Yeah, it’s not, in case anyone was wondering.
To me it was one of the most offensive things I have ever heard on this show.
But it perfectly illustrates (as does @PoM’s example) of what I’m trying to say: the writers don’t recognize the problems in their show and the relationships between the characters because they don’t know *why* it’s problematic. We’re getting into learned social behaviors here. It’s not just monkey see, monkey do. It’s monkey see, monkey never learn that what he has seen is repugnant to some other monkeys, monkey regurgitate things he’s seen in the past, babymonkey pick up and start all over.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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