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You would think though that A&E, hearing that some people find CS to be problematic which isn’t their intention, would actually take a closer look at the relationship to find out why people are interpreting it that way in order to amend it. Some of the things Hook says are awful. Is that intentional or just bad writing? Because saying how you would send a woman back to her husband as “soiled” is in no way defensible. There is no way that comment could be interpreted as anything but offensive. How can the writers be so blind? You want a character to be “evil” and try and break a character’s spirit, fine, but there is a line. It’s called a “moral event horizon”. Basically, if you want your villain to be redeemable, they absolutely must not cross that line. Once they do they’re past the point of no return. IMO Hook has crossed that line. Not only for how he went for real personal attacks on Emma but for the “soiled” comment about Milah. What doesn’t help Hook’s case is that we’ve seen a DO in love with someone through the RumBelle relationship. Rumple has done some underhanded things but he’s never gone for personal attacks on Belle, he’s never described the woman he loved as “soiled”. A character like Zelena could get away with saying those thing because she has no close connection with Emma. But for Hook so say those things is just plain wrong.
Hook crossed that line when he beat Belle and sexually harassed every woman on the show. If you supposedly “plan” for the villain to be the main love interest of your main heroine, it’s best that his initial behavior won’t be despicable.
[adrotate group="5"]"All your questions are pointless"
Unfortunately, rape happens in our culture. It is a horrible horrible thing. In the case with Regina, we were supposed to hate her. So her treatment and manipulation of Graham made us despise her.
Then go ask Adam what was going on with Regina and Graham. Regina is never brought to bear for her crimes against Graham. it’s never brought up, she is never punished for her 28 year long rape. And if you were to ask Adam (as many fans did back in s2) why that was…it’s because “it wasn’t rape because canonically you don’t know what they were doing during those ‘town meetings.” According to Adam, they could have been playing Scrabble so Regina has nothing to pay for.
And that–THAT–is maybe the best, very best, example of what I’m trying to get it: not understanding that this problem because they don’t recognize the problem in the first place.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"However I will say, and this is kind of a different topic here, I do not have any problem with television shows depicting these types of scenes if it is essential or important to the story. Unfortunately, rape happens in our culture.
I’ll just have to quote myself on this because I don’t want to re-type what I’ve said in the past.
Domestic abuse in narrative, in TV storytelling, can work. It really can. When the writers are consciously aware of what they are writing and making a commentary on the effects of abuse, the signs of abuse, and how to handle it, it works well enough on TV. The writers on OUAT are not self-aware that this is domestic and emotional abuse. They are romanticizing it. And it’s appalling.
I’m not a viewer who just wants to see happy-sunshine stories. The world is not happy sunshine. But the writers aren’t doing what they are doing with Hook and Emma for the sake of realism. They are doing it because they think it’s romantic.
And at this point, we’re going to start talking in circles because you don’t see a problem with it, and I’ll never see it as anything *but* a problem.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"My own moral event horizon for Hook is when he pinned Emma to the ground, held a sword to her throat, and told her that when he jabbed her with his “sword,” she’d feel it. That was it for me.
Yeah if that offends you, I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on this topic. That was his character. There are people like that. Not everyone is sunshine and rainbows. He was a villain then. And at that point, he never tried to force himself on her. They were fighting and he said a stupid line. I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing. It didn’t feel like it was, I’m going to force myself upon you, take your clothes off, and you will feel it and like it. Honestly if you were jumping to that way back then, it’s no wonder you don’t care for this character.
Regina is never brought to bear for her crimes against Graham.
And I’ll just leave it at this, although Regina never received punishment or had to fully admit that what she did to Graham was awful, I think as fans we understood what she was doing was wrong. I don’t think they condoned it in any way.
But yeah, I think we will not agree on these issues. Which is fine haha.
The writers depiction of redemption is forget about the horrible things in the past and have everyone around you encourage you and tell you what a great person you are.
Regina was never confronted about Graham because it would would make her seem bad to the fans when she is a fan favorite and she needs to keep being that way cause ratings.
Hook was never confronted about the many horrible things he did in the past, S2,3B,4A,5A cause it would make gim seem bad to the fans when he is a fan favorite and he needs to keep being that way cause ratings.
Which is a shame cause bringing a character to a confrontation about the bad things they did creates great scenes and great drama (e.g. Emma and Neal bar scene in 214). Characters can have flaws, characters can do make mistakes, that’s what makes them interesting. But there is no point if they are not confronted about it, everything is forgotten and everyone is happy. Redemption is not just forget about the past and doing good things, it’s about atonement, making amends and earning forgiveness.
I can say that Hook scene with Emma on the Jolly Roger in 503 was great because he finaly admitted that he was wrong going after Rumple’s wife, breaking a family and being the villain. Unfortunately, that scene means nothing if he doesn’t act upon this conffesion, if he doesn’t make amends with Rumple. Instead they chose to go back to that stupid revenge that became irrelevant cause nobody cares about Milah anymore.
A better plot for Regina in season 4 would have been realizing, through Marian, that Snow wasn’t the only one who got hurt by her, that there were other people. Instead of blaming the author about everything she did and whine about not getting a happy ending, they should have shown her helping the people she hurt getting their happy endings instead.
The writers for some reason don’t affraid to show the characters doing horrible things, but affraid to confront them about it cause then they are directly telling the viewers that what this character is bad and they are affraid that the viewers would be put off by that.
"All your questions are pointless"
I took it more as if I ever got the chance to sleep with you, she would feel it. Like come on baby, you’d like it type thing
They were not in a romantic relationship–they were enemies. That sort of line might be okay in bed play between consenting adults who are in a sexual relationship. Hook and Emma were not. And the idea that “come on baby, you’d like it” is EVER okay to say to someone with whom you’re not in a sexual relationship makes my skin crawl.
And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”
Rape culture, rape culture, rape culture. That’s rape culture. The idea that a woman has to passively take a man’s advances simply because they are women and he’s a man. Whether it’s us telling little girls on the playground that when a boy picks on them it’s because “he likes them” (again, learned social behaviors that continue to manifest well into adulthood) or it’s a man on TV hounding a woman for a date, for sex, for a kiss, for attention and the woman invariably giving in because “she finally fell for his charms” that’s rape culture.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I think as fans we understood what she was doing was wrong. I don’t think they condoned it in any way.
That wasn’t the point of anything I said nor what we were arguing about. Of course most of the fans realized it was wrong. The writers didn’t. Which is the entire point of this current conversation, that the writers use rape, or misogyny or death of POC to advance their shiny shiny plot without reflecting on what it means socially, culturally, ethically or even to their own narrative. You can’t even get Adam to admit that Regina and Graham were sleeping together let alone to admit that he was using rape as a tool. (and continues to do so with Zelena, Arthur…)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"And the fact that there are people like that doesn’t make it okay. Ever. If a man walked up to you, held you by your wrist, refused to let you go and said “come on baby, you’d like it” how would you react? Would you think, “oh it’s okay. It’s just his character/personality.”
Of course that’s awful. But he was an awful person. I’m not defending his comment. Let me be clear. But he was being portrayed as a villain. So why should I have an issue with that line if we as viewers are supposed to view him as a bad guy. Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc. But at the time, a line like that was from a villain who was trying to get in her pants with rude pirate talk, which is why I didn’t have an issue with it.
Now, they have tried to redeem, and he has said he is sorry and what not, etc. etc
No he hasn’t! Show me where Hook ever said he was sorry for that line, for what he did, for leaving Emma and Snow in jail to die. He was never made to apologize; it was just “he’s a hero now!” from the writers.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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