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So the idea that a desire for upward mobility always = overreaching and a sign of evil is kind of problematic.
I agree it is problematic now, especially since S3b. The show could’ve gone in an amazing direction after S3a but didn’t. So what I’m writing about now pertains to the the first few seasons, specifically about Mulan, Emma and Neal. All three managed to overcome hurdles thanks to their own efforts in a way which doesn’t brand them as villains. Their tough start in life could’ve prevented them from overcoming their limits, but it didn’t. I really liked Emma’s pep talk to Cinderella in S1:
Emma Swan: People are gonna tell you who you are your whole life. You just gotta punch back and say, “No, this is who I am”. You want people to look at you differently? Make them! You want to change things, you’re gonna have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world.
Emma Swan is an interesting case study, because despite being the daughter of a monarch, she grew up as an orphan in a foster-care system. In S1, she was a former jailbird-turned-bail-bondswoman who manged to make something of herself, despite her rough background. While being a bail-bondswoman may not seem like a position of power, it is still a huge step up from her days of being a car thief.
In S2, Neal Cassidy, too, seems to have overcome his tough lot and turned over a new leaf from his previous life of crime (even though we still don’t know what his profession was, much to our chagrin). I really wish we knew more about he ended up with an apartment in Manhattan. Emma and Neal were living in our world, despite being born in the Enchanted Forest, so they had the advantage of not being restrained by class/gender to the same degree. Emma and Neal’s ability to overcome their theiving days were testament to their own individual efforts while living in our world (which was part of what made their story of reuniting so darn compelling).
Despite not having grown up with a fairy godmother or a silver spoon in their mouths as did Snow White, Emma and Neal still managed to hold onto goodness and find something worth fighting for (i.e. their son). How I miss that version of Emma and Neal!
While we sadly don’t know as much about Mulan, we do know she is perhaps the only character (male or female) from her feudal society to make something of herself based on her merits while living in that world. Sure, she may be considered a “glorified bodyguard” by some, but she still seems to represent the warrior spirit who refused to be typecast merely based on her gender — no small achievement in a land that doesn’t really have many opportunities for women to make something of themselves based on their own achievements.
[adrotate group="5"]"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Disagree. This seems like unfair blame on the writers. Saying that they needed to make Rumple worse just so they could make Hook palatable, seems like you are just picking on the Hook character. I don’t think these two are mutually exclusive. Not everything revolves around CS.
I actually agree with POM. It seemed like that was what 4A was about making Rump the bad guy and making Hook the good guy.
Hook: “I’ve changed. You haven’t” 20 minutes later *stabs Rump in the heart and assaults Will, while under the impression his hand is cursed*
I don’t think the writers have been doing much to show us Hook has changed ways at all, but are primarily telling us that he changed. The Dark One arc, the cursed hand thing, his actions back in the EF, I mean, I don’t see much that says Hook is really a changed man outside of Emma’s field of view. Take her out of the equation and Hook goes back to being Hook.
It seems i’m in the minority here, but while I do agree that power and immortality are a hard thing to let go of, I disagree that it was always a a part of Rump’s character to be power hungry for the sake of it.
I don’t think Rump initially took on the Dark One role because he wanted personal power. I don’t think Rump ever had that drive in him for a lust for power UNTIL he became the dark one. His motivations were only for his son. And if Bae was not in danger of being enlisted to the ogre wars, I don’t think he’d have chosen to become the dark one. And about Rump being a coward, if the Seer had never told Rump he had a son on the way, would he have abandoned the war just out of fear? Is it because Rumpel is a coward that he chose to break his own leg or r is it because he doesn’t want his son to grow up fatherless like he did? Or did he just want the power that he never had?
I don’t know where I was going with this anymore…. Lost my train of thoughts.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICI take it you don’t have much of an inroad with the fandom at large? Or are just now getting your feet wet?
I try to stay away from fandom pages and ship wars etc. for this very reason: because people get all hot and bothered over a line or an action. I stay independent and look at both sides. It just appears like I’m a Hook fan because I’m the only one defending his character a bit here, but that’s only because everyone else is dumping on him. I certainly know his flaws very well.
Okay a few things
1) if you’ve stayed away from the fandom then that’s fine but please don’t try to assume how the fandom has reacted and make it part of your argument. My response that you quoted was about how CSers didn’t take the “jab you with my sword” line as romantic. They certainly did. The ship wars of this fandom and the treatment of the characters is long, sordid, and outlandish. And while it might seem excessive now, I can assure you this is the mildest it has been in years.
2) It’s natural that you might want to defend a character but as you and I have already discussed this is a shipping thread. Specifically a SwanFire shipping thread. It is a designated safe haven. We are allowed–100%–to dump on Hook, on CS, and the narrative of those two without facing recriminations or being expected to go 20 rounds with someone who doesn’t like what we have to say. The same applies for the CS thread and Neal if those shippers so chose–and I can guarantee you that they have in their thread. You are more than welcome to join in the conversations we have here but if you don’t like reading about Hook and CS being dumped on here, then I encourage and ask that you ignore it. We have a Hook character thread or you can start your own thread if you want to have this sort of debate.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"God a lot happened here today.
I have thoughts, opinions, and a need to drink. But I also have to podcast so that’s probably not a good idea right now.
I would like to say one thing before I go, though. Please remember (and this is a very firm suggestion) that the SF thread is not the catchall thread. We do tend to talk about the show as a whole and where we think it went wrong, but it mostly has to do with Hook/CS and the fandom’s reaction to that. I would ask (beg, please….demand, even)that if we are going to discuss other characters who are NOT directly related to SF either as part of it or the opposite of it–Emma, Neal, Henry, Hook–then we please use the character threads we have set up over the years. In case anyone forgot, I created this 2 years ago to help people locate those threads.
Never ever be afraid to reopen those threads.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Disagree. This seems like unfair blame on the writers. Saying that they needed to make Rumple worse just so they could make Hook palatable, seems like you are just picking on the Hook character. I don’t think these two are mutually exclusive. Not everything revolves around CS.
I actually agree with POM. It seemed like that was what 4A was about making Rump the bad guy and making Hook the good guy.
Hook: “I’ve changed. You haven’t” 20 minutes later *stabs Rump in the heart and assaults Will, while under the impression his hand is cursed*
I don’t think the writers have been doing much to show us Hook has changed ways at all, but are primarily telling us that he changed. The Dark One arc, the cursed hand thing, his actions back in the EF, I mean, I don’t see much that says Hook is really a changed man outside of Emma’s field of view. Take her out of the equation and Hook goes back to being Hook.
It seems i’m in the minority here, but while I do agree that power and immortality are a hard thing to let go of, I disagree that it was always a a part of Rump’s character to be power hungry for the sake of it.
I don’t think Rump initially took on the Dark One role because he wanted personal power. I don’t think Rump ever had that drive in him for a lust for power UNTIL he became the dark one. His motivations were only for his son. And if Bae was not in danger of being enlisted to the ogre wars, I don’t think he’d have chosen to become the dark one. And about Rump being a coward, if the Seer had never told Rump he had a son on the way, would he have abandoned the war just out of fear? Is it because Rumpel is a coward that he chose to break his own leg or r is it because he doesn’t want his son to grow up fatherless like he did? Or did he just want the power that he never had?
I don’t know where I was going with this anymore…. Lost my train of thoughts.
oh you are certainly NOT the minority. however, people will see what they choose to see. they believe what they choose to believe. I look at facial expressions and body language as well as listen to the words.
for example: remember the scene in “Miller’s Daughter” when Rumple was teaching Cora magic and at the same time we saw him teach Emma magic? he said “think angry” to Cora and “protect” to Emma why? because at the core, Cora wanted magic for revenge while Emma wanted it to protect her family. OK we all knew that. …but… look at the WAY Rumple teaches both of them! to Cora he tells a story (maybe it was a real story) but he shows no emotion. he is almost bored, or he is just doing an unpleasant job. then look at the way he teaches Emma. he is so emotional he can hardly contain himself. He is weak and dying and yet he sits up using the last of his strength to impel the lesson! he wants Emma to FEEL! because THIS is what he feels.
and by the way, breaking his own leg was truely brave! how many of us would do this to ourselves? it goes against every fiber of our beings (us, being Human beings)
you know what else he could have done? RUN he could have abandoned ship and run home, then taken his family and run fom the village. but he played by the rules.
has anyone seen “True Blood”? did you see that horrible scene where this guy tells MRJ’s character to bite off his own finger and he JUST CAN’T DO IT? you know why he can’t? because it is not natural for a person to harm himself. believe it or not, it is actually EASIER TO DIE than to injure oneself. and the easier choice is what real cowards take.
I do have a SF thing to say. Just, there is a bit of sadness in seeing the storyline that I hoped for back when Neal died play out around Hook. I like Hook but there’s still part of me wishing/hoping that the underworld will turn out as it would have if they’d gone there two seasons ago the way I wanted.
Just have been wanting to say that.
Back to the timeline I go.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
Just, there is a bit of sadness in seeing the storyline that I hoped for back when Neal died play out around Hook
Yes.
I still miss Neal. He left a hole in this show that I can’t see around.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"oh you are certainly NOT the minority. however, people will see what they choose to see. they believe what they choose to believe. I look at facial expressions and body language as well as listen to the words.
Marty, I think we’ve all been cordially invited to take it to the Rumple thread. 😉 But I think you’re absolutely right, if you look at RC’s acting you get this whole layered, complex, very contradictory sense of Rumple. What he does with the script — how he’s choosing to interpret Rumple — is not even necessarily how the character is written. In the hands of a less talented actor, Rumple, especially how he’s written now, would be a tediously boring boilerplate bad guy to which you wouldn’t give a second thought, and wouldn’t remember five minutes after the show ends. His writing was fairly careful and nuanced in the earlier seasons. After that, I think most of the nuance is coming from Bobby’s acting, not from the way the character is written. My 2c, and I’ll stop with the Rumple analysis, since we have another place to do it.
Isn’t it Emma’s and Neal’s indepdent yet similar storylines in S1-S3a what made them so darn likeable and relateable?
Ok, I think this part of the discussion is absolutely relevant to SF. Emma and Neal, and the parallels between them, were very much the exceptions to the “don’t rise above your station” paradigm, but only partially. Emma is a born princess (as is Snow). She did, indeed, make something of herself, despite a difficult and disadvantaged childhood, but the show begins with a lonely Emma blowing out a lonely candle on a cupcake. It’s this whole narrative of “here’s a tough independent woman, but something’s missing from her life…” Then Henry is at the door, and is getting Emma to come to SB. This, actually, was great — the fact of needing a family, a home, a community (even a screwed up one) etc.
The trope of seeking power = evil returns with Emma learning magic. She’s sort of “stumbling” into her powers, she’s resisting it, and only willing to use it because it’s a question of defending her loved ones/innocent bystanders. Those powers are also not acquired — they are her birthright. Emma is arguably at no point rising above her station here. This is contrasted to Cora’s and Regina’s desire to learn magic. But especially Cora — Cora’s entire character is all about the fraught intersection of female sexuality, lack of upward mobility, and the desire for power.
Neal’s story was similar to Emma’s in that he too grew up a street urchin, also abandoned and case out of his home, and also made something of himself. He’s got an apt in New York and looks like he’s off to some sort of office job, so he’s clearly being depicted as financially secure. But again, there’s this sense of a missing home as well, hence what made the SF love story so heart-warming. But Neal, also, never sought power.
I think Mulan isn’t necessarily an exception, if you don’t know the cartoon. In OUAT, Mulan is “teleported” down in full warrior gear, like Athena exiting Zeus’s head, and there’s very limited information about whether or not she’s had to climb the totem pole to get there. She’s a warrior, and stays a warrior. She’s not trying to become a general. She’s not trying to start anything. She just is. In this sense, she’s a static character with no past and no progression — hence, again, “not trying to rise above her station.”
What I find so annoying with what was done to Emma after the reboot is that they retconned that initial sense of loneliness — the sense of missing a home, a family, her son, and yes, Neal, but only because he was part of this greater fabric of what constituted “home” which was all foreshadowed so explicitly in that first few episodes — to it becoming about your standard romance plot along the lines of the “Taming of the Shrew.” So Emma isn’t lonely because everyone needs a community, it’s because she has Walls™ around her soft and vulnerable ego, which our dashing rogue must break through in order to rescue the damsel from the fortress of her own making,
So Emma isn’t lonely because everyone needs a community, it’s because she has Walls™ around her soft and vulnerable ego, which our dashing rogue must break through in order to rescue the damsel from the fortress of her own making,
Yes. And this is what we mean when we talk about how Emma isn’t a strong woman anymore. It’s not saying that having a boyfriend means losing your “strong woman” characteristic. It’s that your entire being and story center around him. That without him you cannot be more than what you already are–and of course, what you are is fragile, lonely, and wounded in some way.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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