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. I can appreciate some of Once’s limitations, in a weird way, even if I can’t forgive the awful audience/executive meddling.
I would LOVE for you to elaborate on this. Or at least tell us how your perspective has changed with your new education.
It’s a lot of things. I think it’s just understanding how expensive these things are, all the logistical pieces, and how fast they have to turn around an episode from writing to filming to editing to marketing. And how with juggling all this stuff, how easy it is to not see the forest for the trees–the things we sit back and critique half of those guys probably agree with, in their heart of hearts, but they just can’t publicly admit they might have been mistaken in a choice for PR reasons.
An example: I remember being profoundly irritated when the Pan is Rumple’s Dad reveal was done to Regina, Emma and Snow in ‘Save Henry.’ I thought it was a total waste of dramatic potential giving it to them, the characters LEAST CONNECTED to that storyline, and then to have Baelfire find out and process that off-screen. Now I’m fairly certain there was a version of that scene where Bae was with them, but they realized they didn’t have the time to give an in-character, weighty reaction so they just…didn’t. And I get it. STILL ANNOYED and I would have loved to read an earlier draft of that that had Neal’s reaction, but I can understand it.
There’s also the revolving door of guest stars. They want good actors, but good actors need steady work, and filming Once is a huge time commitment, you have to go up to Canada to do it, etc. So they write Pan into one episode and shelve him for six until Robbie Kay can come back once he’s done promoting Heroes. Red is the perpetually reappearing and disappearing character. It sort of is what it is.
[adrotate group="5"]"Death cannot stop true love...it can only delay it awhile."
t’s a lot of things. I think it’s just understanding how expensive these things are, all the logistical pieces, and how fast they have to turn around an episode from writing to filming to editing to marketing.
Thanks for elaborating. That’s insightful. Do you have any insights into the relationship between network and writer? We go back and forth a lot in here over if ABC is more to blame or if A and E need to shoulder it? Not in the continuity things or whatnot, but the dramatic shift in tone (family to romance) and the promotion that is given to certain ship/characters over others?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Gotta love Sean Maguire’s support of MRJ & his new show!
Don't miss my mate @MRaymondJames in #GameOfSilence This is gonna be great. https://t.co/OFRygqBAX6
— Sean Maguire (@sean_m_maguire) April 1, 2016
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
t’s a lot of things. I think it’s just understanding how expensive these things are, all the logistical pieces, and how fast they have to turn around an episode from writing to filming to editing to marketing.
Thanks for elaborating. That’s insightful. Do you have any insights into the relationship between network and writer? We go back and forth a lot in here over if ABC is more to blame or if A and E need to shoulder it? Not in the continuity things or whatnot, but the dramatic shift in tone (family to romance) and the promotion that is given to certain ship/characters over others?
That’s a really interesting question. We talk a lot about the difference between working on independent films and working for a major studio (I’m in the producing track, so this is especially pertinent.) Everything really does come down to money and creative freedom. If you work for CBS, ABC, NBC, you’re going to have a steady paycheck, but those people are also responsible for keeping “the machine going,” so to speak.
I would guess with the direction Once went, Network Meddling ™ had a lot to do with it. A former casting director for ABC (she was there in 2009-2010, around the time Once would’ve been cast, actually) came in and gave a talk to my class, and she told us about how the New York office would spend weeks auditioning people they felt were perfect, and the LA main office would turn around and totally disregard their work and stick whoever they felt was most marketable in that slot.
I think Michael Raymond James was an Eddy and Adam choice, not a corporate choice, and that the choice to push him out was not forced upon them, but strongly suggested. In a lot of ways, I don’t imagine he fits the Disney brand image they were going for–not that Colin’s Hook really does, either, but this is me calling out Disney on not understanding their own damn brand. His performance was raw and uncomfortable and very, VERY real. He was such a unique entity in the show–he totally worked as the male parallel to Emma, but he definitely had an edge to him…probably because he had a villain for a parent, unlike Emma, which meant when he called his dad out, HE WAS REALLY CALLING HIM OUT. I loved all his scenes with Bobby sorry, tangent.
I don’t know exactly what Kitzowitz’s position is in the hierarchy…they’ve always been front and center with promoting the show, and they have a real presence, more than most show runners imo. At the end of the day, though, they don’t hold the purse strings, ABC does, and that definitely shows, particularly in later seasons. I’m speculating that brand synergy was something that started being pushed, hence things like the Frozen Arc or putting in Merida. Eddy and Adam in the early seasons seemed to have more freedom to play with the mythos and draw from the original, not Disney versions of the characters. I can very well imagine them being told that focus groups and social media and young people LOVE HOOK and them buying into that. I’ve relistened to early podcast interviews with them from S2 and man….they do not seem very interested in his character at all. THEY WERE SO MUCH ABOUT SWANFIRE, TOO. They were so, SO much about that relationship and its far-reaching consequences for the show. For them to be like that, and then a few months later want to kill him off does not add up to me. Someone from corporate told them to push Hook.
All this is to say…they’re both to blame. The corporate big-wigs for not getting what elevated the show above tawdry fairy tale soap, and Eddy and Adam for not fighting for their vision and eventually buying into their own BS internal narrative they concocted to justify it.
"Death cannot stop true love...it can only delay it awhile."
All this is to say…they’re both to blame. The corporate big-wigs for not getting what elevated the show above tawdry fairy tale soap, and Eddy and Adam for not fighting for their vision and eventually buying into their own BS internal narrative they concocted to justify it.
Which is more or less the line I’ve taken in this whole thing as well. Thanks for the really well laid out argument.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Love reading your thoughts @ouatrandothoughts, is great to have a view of people that understand the business better than the usual fans.
That is why the line below, made me think about certain differences between ABC and NBC. I will explain why.
I think Michael Raymond James was an Eddy and Adam choice, not a corporate choice, and that the choice to push him out was not forced upon them, but strongly suggested.[/quote]
This past was leaked online, a unofficial video interview from MRJ on GoS set, he talks about characters and story and towards the end he says something, that me and other people that listened all sort of agree, that is Michael says something that hints he was invited to the role, bc he mentions that he only came a board the show, when the show runner said that NBC and Sony studios would actually be “bold” to actually tell teh story how it supposed to be told, like really take a risk on this dark cable look show. Which made me wonder if Michael was a writers and Sony studio choice for the role.
After the show was picked NBC entered a board as co owner of the show and co producing it with Sony, and that was something that changed as well, bc they had screeners with bosses at NBC and with normal people, to see if they would pick the show, and after that NBC sort off started pushing MRJ more to be sort of poster boy for GOS.
I mean somehow they made him make instagram and facebook accounts, which is odd that they made him do that just bc of a 10 epi show that they still dont know if will get renew, which made me wonder if NBc didnt have any sort of contract with Michael, im not sure many know this here, but Michael before ouat and after terriers was si many nbc shows as guest star, he was lead male on one NBc pilot in 2012 that was not picked and in the case if it was, he would not have been Neal, bc that was the year of the 206 epi, and since after he joined OUAT and had possibly a contract with abc/disney until maybe Finest reshoots in jan last year, bc i see a more close relation btw Michael and NBC than i ever saw btw him an ABC.
So is at same time, is interesting to see how NBC protects Michael, their social media people in contact with facebook took down several fake MRJ accounts that was posting his personal pics on facebook and help him being verified there and also help him with Ig, vs how ABC always treated MRJ and evenn how Michael promotes Gos( i know he is one of the leads, but still) vs how he promoted ouat while he was there. Makes me think that ABC took a bet on looks, and NBC may have look pass that and see talent.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
This long post was VERY enlightening as well as very depressing. It bascally means that hook was just a 2 dimensional character as I always knew, and network CEOs WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TELLING A GOOD STORY forced A and E to turn what would have been an epic show into “just another run-of-the-mill boring tv that no one cares to follow” seriously, ABC, don’t you have enough of those? Let the WRITERS keep their show fresh and exciting! Wow, I am so dissappointed that artists have no creative freedom. Just look at how high the ratings were in season 2 compared to 3. In season 2 hook was just a side 2 dimentional comic relief character, in season 3 he became so boring and got way too much boring scrèen time, RATINGS WENT DOWN. it’s a direct result of hook becoming “important” in a boring way.
I can very well imagine them being told that focus groups and social media and young people LOVE HOOK and them buying into that.
What a fascinating post and discussion! Thank you! I am curious though about how much of a “long view” such analytics take. So, for example, is there a sense that a character might be popular for a short period, but “fade” fast (for whatever reason) whereas others might have most long-standing appeal? How does one plan for such popularity spikes in relation to how many seasons the show is predicted to survive? Or does it go season by season (without ambitions beyond the currently funded season). It seems to me that the decision to focus on Hook was, among other things, incredibly short-sighted, but of course, hindsight is 20/20. Though the writers should have known this — all his other sordid qualities aside, Hook ALSO isn’t the Dark One’s kid and has only tenuous connections to everyone else.
So, for example, is there a sense that a character might be popular for a short period, but “fade” fast (for whatever reason) whereas others might have most long-standing appeal?
Yeah that’s a good question. Because a character like Regina has been super popular since the beginning and really only gains in popularity as time goes on. But Hook has soured to the point where only one set of shippers like him/defend him and as time goes on he only becomes more polarizing.
I’m also curious how they come up with these focus groups and what sorts of questions they ask.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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