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Phee & RG– YES!
8:15 is a curse thing more than strictly a romantic thing in my opinion. In the comfort of a ship thread, it is fun to say “Hey there’s this theme weaving this family together” but in terms of “this is proof of the future intent of the writers?”–no, too thin to say x = y that way.
So it means little either way that it is 8:15 when Emma wakes, but it is sometime later Hook knocks. Who knows, I don’t remember the clock showing us a new time for a new curse, like 8:20. That could for all we know become a new thematic element that the old curse was 8:15 and connected her to Neal, and the new one is 8:30 and connects her to Hook–but if that means anything or not is hard to judge as August also had a scene of waking at 8:15 originally. Hook may be the new “August” in some ways. The fairytale character who has a duty to help her.
The question about Neal and Rumple’s lack of screen-time to discuss is similar to that with Belle. The writers could give us scenes but they don’t. One thing I feel is important is Neal forgives Rumple without even having the knowledge the audience did that Malcolm traumatized Rumple with a bean portal incident. Do I wish they talked about it on screen? A hundred times yes–the same way I wish Belle reacted to a lot more things on screen, especially Milah’s death. In this one case though, it makes Neal forgiving Rumple all the more wonderful. He doesn’t need that additional bit of sympathy to connect with his father and let down the wall between them.
MRJ’s brief smile at Rumple’s death is something I feel could be misinterpreted as being happy Rumple died as opposed to pride that Rumple did what he had to do and sacrificed himself to save them. That is the good man he remembered, and sad as he is, he is glad to see he wasn’t wrong that his father still had this in him. That his father beat his curse.
This problem happens with Hook as well, in that, we are supposed to interpret looks and a scant line of dialog here and there to understand what he’s thinking sometimes. I would much rather have seen Hook and Neal have a much larger discussion about Milah, about what happened between them in the past, about Tamara (because Hook did work with her, and knew she was playing Neal, who he later claimed as a friend). I still don’t understand Hook claiming Neal as a friend. Is that an exaggeration or euphemism for “my dead lover’s son who I felt a fondness for on some level but in the end, when he didn’t accept me, probably because I omitted to tell him I knew who he was, I traded him off to Pan, LOLs” ? How do you even term that connection? If more happened on NL between them, that would put Hook in a better light. Why didn’t we see THAT to set up Hook being a hero instead of “here’s Liam..” and I think it was RG , but I forget who said “here’s how far Jones brothers go to prove a point”.
My headcannon was that Hook tried to rescue Bae from Pan, but we never saw that. Not that he would have accomplished that goal per se, but maybe he took “that last job” of killing Rumple as his price, but also Bae’s, off the island. It just would have explained so much and set up such rich tension and tragedy to Hook falling for the same lady that Neal desperately wants to have a second chance to repair a relationship damaged in part, because of an out-of-the-ordinary circumstance. It would make me feel better that Hook’s not sinister in saying the things he is–but I cannot look back at S2 Hook’s actions and NOT wonder and question his motives. I understand the shippy spin people put on things he did, but it feels like shippy spin, not a real explanation that holds water for all things to change my opinion of his basic character as someone who will put on an act to get what he wants. That makes me worry about him with Emma, but at the same time, that doesn’t lesson the sincerity, intensity and passion or love he might have for her. If it doesn’t bother her, well it shouldn’t still bother me as long as it is written as something she sees, and discourages, the way Belle knows Rumple’s not Mr. Sunshine above-board with people.
Neal comes across as more of an impulsive, sometimes thoughtless but not in the mean way, more of a didn’t-think-it-through way. He’s flown by the seat of his pants (hah literally with the Shadow!) since 14. He isn’t refined. He isn’t cultured. He tries to do the right thing though, but he doesn’t always get good results.
I really believe Wendy ending up imprisoned in NL for hundreds of years because she tried to save Bae is something the writers put in there with a knowing wink to how Emma tried to save Neal but ended up in jail for it too. I don’t think Neal, much as he feels horrible, perhaps even on some level responsible for Wendy having that happen, feels personally at fault as in a normal causal sense. He didn’t WANT that to happen to Wendy, in fact, he wanted the exact opposite. We should have had a conversation about it between Wendy and Neal, with Emma overhearing it perhaps.
Or later on maybe, and it could have lead into Neal explaining what exactly led to how Emma ended up in jail, and why when he found out he chose to do what he did and why he felt or didn’t feel whatever he did.
We all end up making assumptions based off so very few scenes. Some say his expressions are just guilt and trying to ease his conscience in that scene with August in Vancouver. I feel Neal is giving up everything he has, begging August to look out for Emma because as long as he must steer clear due to magical curse reasons, he wants to do whatever he can do. If it were up to him, HE would have gone to jail basically and I bet he would have stayed in Wendy’s cage if it meant she would be free and at home with her brothers. Yet people read it the other way around, because some have this narrative in their heads that he’s this awful, cowardly, user and abuser of a guy who makes women suffer so he can scoot away care free.
When Wendy talks to Neal, he’s touched that she cared about him that much–not happy she’s suffered. How I would have loved the dialog when the Darlings reunited if they’d asked Neal to come with them, home to London. For him to say something like they’ll still always be part of his family but he has to stay there in SB–or something.
I would prefer instead of magical separation that Belle held Rumple’s feet to the fire about things like what he did when she was Lacey, or the Milah thing, or the Tamara moment–but the problem is things do get swept under a rug. We know they filmed a scene of Emma confronting Regina about Graham, but cut it.
So it is not just Neal that gets the character development short-end of the stick–and it definitely applies to people failing to react to things Hook did. Instead of seeing Regina confront Hook in anyway now that they’re back, we get a plot coupon of “I haven’t forgotten”–maybe we get to spend it on a reduced scene down the road, but it will more likely be done off-screen.
The writers over-all have been skipping over things because ACTION! FIGHTING! MAGIC! They may loop around back eventually but at this point even as we see their careful plotting in some moments, we also see their lack of foresight in others. Seriously, the scene with Henry and Snow/MM couldn’t have been filmed years earlier? She looks a bit different than S1 Snow, more tired and Henry looks older in an obvious way. If things were so meticulously planned, that would have been in the can filmed already. It wasn’t even much of a spoiler. The book spontaneously appeared in her closet.
The original Rumple father scene as well, didn’t the father die? No doubt the writers put little breadcrumbs but they also drop whole loaves sometimes and that’s disconcerting. Hello Black Fairy, why have we never heard of you until now when your wand is conveniently powerful enough to swap bodies around!
At least we’ve had a few conversations about Neal needing to make things up to Emma. Snow’s said something like “Whatever this man did” to suggest she knew there’s something that motivates Emma to feel so emotional and panicked at seeing Neal again. She may not know the entire story, but then neither does Emma that we saw onscreen. Emma knows enough to know Neal wasn’t making up the stuff about fate and destiny now though. If she wasn’t sure whether he believed it before, she probably is now.
That makes it in some ways even scarier. If he left because he didn’t love her, that’s something she thought for years and in many ways came to terms with and tried to move on. Finding out he did, then thinking he was dead, then realizing he was alive, and he was played by a woman working for a super-villain who kidnapped her son? This is astounding. Then to find out he is related to this super-villain but never even knew it? His life is so much more awful than hers and he tried to escape it, and this curse of magic reached out and sucked him back in. She thought there was nothing worse than growing up thinking you weren’t wanted–but now, well, having family that did want you but couldn’t because of scheming crazy sinister plans hatched by the likes of Peter Pan is worse.
Yes, I want more about and from Neal–but he is a supporting character. What conclusions we draw about what that means in shippy terms–well obviously, some are going to say that means he’s an obstacle not the goal. I’ve said my opinion on it is the writers think of Belle, Henry and Neal differently than the other characters as we saw with the way the posters were released. I’d term them “love maguffins”. They’re the modern spin on damsels in distress. The reason the characters, villains and heroes, do what they do, and while characters in their own right too, a huge part of their purpose in the story is for others to act or react due to them, to be villainous or heroic as the case may be.
That’s not to say Belle, Neal or Henry do not get heroic moments, as they do but they sure do need to be rescued a fair amount. Neal as a male character in a LT comes off a bit worse therefore due to cultural norms of Alpha males–same thing I know Josh Hutcherson’s talked about with playing Peeta in the Hunger Games. Katniss is the hero, and its not really about a love triangle, anyway but the themes of fighting this corrupt society in which she exists. Emma’s struggles shouldn’t be reduced to this shippy part of it, nor should Neal’s character be reduced to it but sometimes it feels like that’s all the writers have left. On the back half, I hope they’ll step away from the more maudlin LT soap opera plot devices (triangles, memory wipes…) that ruin character development, though I don’t expect them to give up fairy-tale plot devices of magical items and quests (because they aren’t giving up those anytime soon, the real meaning behind Blue Fairy not dying).
They don’t have to be totally realistic and probably shouldn’t–just less inconsistent.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Honestly, it baffles me a bit when people say that they see Bae and Neal as being two separate characters
Same. And it baffles me when people say that I only love Neal because he’s Bae. It’s not true. I don’t love Neal just because he is also Baelfire, the cute heroic kid. I don’t love him just because he is Rumple’s son or Henry’s father. To me that’s like saying that people only love Hook because Colin looks good in leather and eyeliner.
I love Neal because of who he is, his very self. I love his heart and his courage. I love his strength and his sense of humor. I love that the second he knew he was a father, he was determined to break the cycle of abandonment. I love how he continually makes sacrifices for others–Wendy, the Darlings, Emma, and Henry. He gave up his shot at a happy ending so that Emma could have hers and yeah it sucked but fate is a cruel mistress.
People hate Neal not because he is a villain but because of how human he is. It’s easy to love the villains because while we can empathize with them, we can never fully be them. I may understand Rumple’s deep self loathing and thinking that he is unlovable (that’s me a to a T) but I can’t understand murder in the name of power. Same with Regina and Hook. But everyone knows what it’s like to hurt someone you love. Neal is a reminder of the frailty of humankind, how close we all are to hurting each other everyday. He hold us a mirror to ourselves and asks to think about the our own choices. And I love hm for that. I love his humanity.
In other news, I was thinking. 8:15 and Charely’s Girl wake up Emma. Literally, wake her up. Both things are associated with Neal. It’s almost like Neal himself trying to wake her up out of a curse but failing only because he himself is not there.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Phee wrote: Honestly, it baffles me a bit when people say that they see Bae and Neal as being two separate characters
Same. And it baffles me when people say that I only love Neal because he’s Bae. It’s not true. I don’t love Neal just because he is also Baelfire, the cute heroic kid. I don’t love him just because he is Rumple’s son or Henry’s father. To me that’s like saying that people only love Hook because Colin looks good in leather and eyeliner. I love Neal because of who he is, his very self. I love his heart and his courage. I love his strength and his sense of humor. I love that the second he knew he was a father, he was determined to break the cycle of abandonment. I love how he continually makes sacrifices for others–Wendy, the Darlings, Emma, and Henry. He gave up his shot at a happy ending so that Emma could have hers and yeah it sucked but fate is a cruel mistress. People hate Neal not because he is a villain but because of how human he is. It’s easy to love the villains because while we can empathize with them, we can never fully be them. I may understand Rumple’s deep self loathing and thinking that he is unlovable (that’s me a to a T) but I can’t understand murder in the name of power. Same with Regina and Hook. But everyone knows what it’s like to hurt someone you love. Neal is a reminder of the frailty of humankind, how close we all are to hurting each other everyday. He hold us a mirror to ourselves and asks to think about the our own choices. And I love hm for that. I love his humanity. In other news, I was thinking. 8:15 and Charely’s Girl wake up Emma. Literally, wake her up. Both things are associated with Neal. It’s almost like Neal himself trying to wake her up out of a curse but failing only because he himself is not there.
Preach. You hit the nail on the head with those reasons and I’m right there with you on all of them. I can relate to Neal in SUCH a huge way (the loneliness and aching for family, trying to figure out where I belong in this world) and I can also relate to Emma in many ways (I pretty much grew up w/o my dad and have been trying to reconcile that for years) which is probably why I ship them so hard to be together. IMO, Neal is such a complex character in how many things he’s been through and in having so much emotional baggage but at the same time, he wants such simple things out of life: home, family, love, belonging, hope. It’s an amazing contrast and I honestly don’t understand how people can root against him finding these things after everything he’s suffered through in his life.
It makes me sadder and sadder every single day when I realize how much of the Oncer fandom has reduced this show to the Triangle of Doom. As much as I love rooting for Emma & Neal, I haven’t forgotten the rest of the characters and still want to see what happens to them. I’ve always cared about Snowing, Rumple and Belle are wonderful, and I do want to see Hook stop being a weenie and become the guy we know he can be. And Regina, for me at least, is someone I’ve always had issues with overall but her redemption in 3×11 was absolutely fantastic and I now care much more about her and have hope that she can be happy someday too. This show is NOT just about the Triangle and I wish more people could remember that. 🙁
#MoreBOOMLessGloom^ all of that
Neal is such a complex character in how many things he’s been through and in having so much emotional baggage but at the same time, he wants such simple things out of life: home, family, love, belonging, hope. It’s an amazing contrast and I honestly don’t understand how people can root against him finding these things after everything he’s suffered through in his life.
With everything he went through, he could have actually become a villain. A nasty horrible person who made others hurt, but he didn’t. Shows what a strong character he is
t makes me sadder and sadder every single day when I realize how much of the Oncer fandom has reduced this show to the Triangle of Doom.
Yup. Everything now is seen through the lens of the triangle. Even other couples get the “well this parallels to SF/CS because of reasons” and there’s nothing overly wrong with that so long as we remember that each couple is unique and not EVERYTHING goes back to Emma and her love life.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"(I’m REALLY hoping we see Neal reconciling his Bae self with his Neal self- I feel really bad for him, when he say’s “he’s not Bae anymore”…) Out of the context I was using it in- I didnt say that Neal was 2 different characters at all- I said I hope we see him reconcile his Bae/past self- the self he keeps telling people, he isnt anymore (the side that connects him to Rumple), with his Neal/new self, the side that keeps him ‘safe’. Just like Emma has her old (walled up) side to stay safe & her new (Walls down) side & open to who she really is, or Rumple has his pre Belle side & post Belle side- it doesnt make them 2 different characters IMO, it’s simply different facets of the same personality.
I think it’s a false dichotomy to persist in saying he is either Bae or Neal. He’s both. He’s Nealfire. Neal was previously running from his past. He was “in hiding” which meant he didn’t want to be associated with fairytales, magic or anything that reminded him of being his father’s son, since Rumple “chose all that crap” over him. In his mind, the name Baelfire meant being associated as his father’s son. Yet, in 3×1 we saw Neal acknowledge he is the son of the Dark One, which convinced RH he was telling the truth, since no man would claim to be that who isn’t. Neal used magic, a thing he struggles with given his father’s dark oneness, in order to locate Emma. He used blood magic in order to track down the crystal ball, and he let his love for her direct the crystal ball to see an image of her in Neverland.
When Neal ran into his father again, he was resigned for his father to use magic to put the lost boys to sleep, so long as he didn’t harm them. He saw his father’s magic as useful in getting the squid ink to freeze PP. He and his dad were working together, which would’ve seemed impossible the way they left things standing badly in 2×21 before Neal fell through the portal. Yet, when he found out his dad had been contemplating murdering his son, that was the final straw. Neal’s protective instincts to save Henry came out in 3×4, and he yelled “it’s Neal now!” as a way to tell his dad he’s not his son, Bae. Neal got a lot of criticism for that rejection of his father. Yet, Neal is a product of his father’s abandonment, so he had no reason to believe his dad was now telling the truth.
Yet, we saw Neal in 3×8 offer his dad a chance to take on PP, because he then had a means to control him via Pandora’s Box. It was in 3×9, when Neal discovered his father didn’t cast a shadow, that Neal realized Rumple was telling the truth about not having his Dark One dagger. In that moment, Neal saw his father in a new light as Rumple went to face his own demise for the sake of Henry. Then Rumple got caught in Pandora’s Box by PP.
Neal freeing his dad from Pandora’s Box in 3×9 was highly meaningful in the sense that blood magic allowed him to be reconciled with his dad. Neal then understood his father had been burdened for centuries by being abandoned by his father, Malcolm, just as Neal had been, which allowed Neal to sympathize and forgive Rumple. Rumple said he’d never told his son about his father being PP, because he was ashamed Rumple hadd become just like him. That is when Neal said, “No, you’re not the same, Papa. You came back for me.” That is the biggest character development for both father and son! They’re reconciled! Neal accepts he is Baelfire again, the son of Rumplestiltskin, whom he again calls Papa, just as little Bae did.
Also, Emma witnessed this father-son reunion, and smiled ear to ear, because she remembered meeting Neal when he was on the run and still a lost boy. He had always just been Neal to her, and now she saw him as Baelfire, the boy who found his father. Seeing Neal get his happy ending with Rumple brought her joy and inspired her to hug her own parents. Two lost children, Neal and Emma, had found each other, their son and their parents again. Life was good for an entire 10 minutes.
In 3×11, Rumple called his son Baelfire again. He said, “I used the curse to find you, Bae. To tell you I made a mistake. To make sure you had the chance at happiness and that happiness is possible, just not with me. I accept that.” In his final moments, Rumple addressed his son as Baelfire. Father and son have been reconciled, just as Neal has been reconciled with his past identity, Baelfire. Rumple made his final sacrifice so that Neal could get a second chance at happiness, only that second chance won’t be with Rumple. “Believe in second chances,” is Neal’s official motto for S3. Neal will get this second chance at a family, only it will be with Emma and Henry. Neal said in 3×3 they were his second chance.
Here is a lovely video from S3 footage of Nealfire, Rumple, Henry and Emma. Enjoy!
“Stay…” – Once Upon a Time [3×11]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWwvvsrDGA#t=30"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Here is a lovely video from S3 footage of Nealfire, Rumple, Henry and Emma. Enjoy! “Stay…” || Once Upon a Time [3×11]
ouch
that one was great.
I love everything you said about Nealfire. His arc this season has been a personal one being both Neal and Bae. I love how in the end, when his father calls him Bae he doesn’t correct him or yell. He knows who he is. He is both, just like Emma is both Emma Swan–lost girl and orphan struggling with the pain of her past–and Emma Swan–savior, princess, and daughter of heroes.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"In other news, I was thinking. 8:15 and Charely’s Girl wake up Emma. Literally, wake her up. Both things are associated with Neal. It’s almost like Neal himself trying to wake her up out of a curse but failing only because he himself is not there.
Yes, I think that’s true! What will restore Emma’s memories? Hook’s kiss or Neal’s dreamcatcher (possibly her talisman)? It will be interesting to see which draws Emma back to her true self.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Knowing these writers it will be both if only to mess with the fandom. I will say though that non Cursed Emma has NO reason to go to Neal’s apartment and get the dreamcatcher. Especially with that look on her face. That is clearly Cursed!Emma. Which means that somehow someone (Hook) told her to go to Neal’s? Hook would know where the apartment is, though he might not know what is there to help trigger Emma. And that means Neal told Hook how to get Emma back. This is my current working theory.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"It makes me sadder and sadder every single day when I realize how much of the Oncer fandom has reduced this show to the Triangle of Doom. As much as I love rooting for Emma & Neal, I haven’t forgotten the rest of the characters and still want to see what happens to them. I’ve always cared about Snowing, Rumple and Belle are wonderful, and I do want to see Hook stop being a weenie and become the guy we know he can be. And Regina, for me at least, is someone I’ve always had issues with overall but her redemption in 3×11 was absolutely fantastic and I now care much more about her and have hope that she can be happy someday too. This show is NOT just about the Triangle and I wish more people could remember that.
I hate to say it, but I think the show has gone down hill. It has its moments which I still enjoy, but I feel like it has become a bit of a rutter-less ship which lacks the ability to set a new course. The same plots are getting rehashed, almost like the writers are out of new, original ideas. What are we left with? Shipping wars. It’s really sad. I used to enjoy each episode for the content and the plot. Yet, for me, S2 was mostly a let-down except for the episodes which had Neal in them. The only happiness I have anymore from this show is hoping for the end result, but I can’t say I’m going to enjoy seeing the dark curse be cast again, seeing memory loss again, or seeing skeptical Emma again.
I also know I’m not going to enjoy seeing Hook fawn over Emma, or heaven forbid, Emma actually fall for it. My main consolation is that if CS is going to happen (as it seems it will), it will be confinded to an episode of Emma being cursed, when she’s not in her right mind! I hope Hook’s kiss will prove ineffective, because he will be unsuccessful in his attempts to woo her. Instead, what we might see is cursed Emma even dating someone new! Remember this new guy, played by Chris Gorham? It’d actually be a real twist to discover cursed Emma has a new boyfriend, who isn’t a drunken pirate who continues to make passes at other women. As much as I love SF, if Emma were happy with a new guy who treats her right, I’d be okay with that outcome. It’d also be nice if the thing which does the trick in helping Emma to remember is the dreamcatcher, combined with the BF’s potion. We already know from spoilers that Hook convinces Emma to drink the potion. Now why would she do that if Hook’s kiss had worked? I’m thinking this is a good indication that Hook won’t be able to awaken Emma as Charming was able to do for Snow in 1×16.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I hate to say it, but I think the show has gone down hill. It has it’s moments which I love, but I feel like it has become a bit of a rutter-less ship which lacks the ability to set a new course. The same plots are getting rehashed, almost like the writers are out of new, original ideas. What are we left with? Shipping wars.
Example A: the massive (bleep) that happened last night on Twitter between Michael Coleman (Happy) and one sect of the fandom. Man, that was painful to watch. And the fact that Adam had to tweet a public apology and stating that Coleman doesn’t speak for the cast or him and Eddy….*sigh* Our fandom is getting a reputation for being mean.
When Emma does make a decision…well it’s a good thing S4 is a lock cause it’s going to make all of this THAT much worse. No matter what decision it is.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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