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Have a pretty thing because this could never be posted too many times
x Oh look at that. I quoted it. đ
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Slurpeez108 wrote: Have a pretty thing because this could never be posted too many times
xOh look at that. I quoted it.
Oh look, I did too. I think we have that sickness again RG. đ
I have a ton of things I’d like to add to your guys comments about Neal (long story short, I agree with most of you and also have a few issues with Screwball’s essay) but after falling on my knees twice in a 24 hour span of time this week (the other one just last night that really messed up my right knee and left ankle), I’m a little under the weather at work today and will need to wait until I get home later to concentrate on this topic. I will also be able to put ice on all my aching bruises. Please send good thoughts my way that I don’t take anymore tumbles onto my knees because I may end up in the hospital if it happens one more time, LOL đ
#MoreBOOMLessGloomItâs funny, I wrote a similar thing quite awhile back if you remember, talking about the reasons Neal gets disliked, and Screwball, wonderful as she is, didnât really acknowledge the biggest reasons: Heâs in the way of two ships.
Yeah and that bothers me because Screwball has always maintained a careful aloofness about CSF in particular, refusing to “pick one”
A few Rumbellers were NOT happy that Rumple was all âYouâre my Happy Endingâ to Neal. Screwball seems to be annoyed at Neal for not comforting Belleâyet, its funny because I havenât seen anyone annoyed at Belle for not comforting Neal. That tells you something right there.
I haven’t had my morning coffee yet so I’m going to try and make this as intelligible as possible. I think both Neal and Belle suffer from “lack of archetype” syndrome. Everyone else on the show–The Princess, The Knight, The Queen/Witch, The Wizard, The Savior, The Pirate–falls rather neatly into certain archetypes and we more or less know what to make of them. Neal isn’t an archetype because, again, he’s so human. So people just don’t know how to respond to him. Belle also doesn’t really fit into any archetype–she’s not a princess, a warrior, the savior, a queen, or magical. In fact, if I had to pick the two characters who you either love or hate..it’s Belle and Neal. A lot of people see Belle as useless or a prop or a crutch for Rumple. But she get more love than Neal because her story is tied up in a very classic archetype of The Wizard (Rumple) and her story is a tale as old as time. I really want Belle and Neal to comfort each other because to loose your father isn’t greater than to loose your true love, but to loose your true love isn’t any worse than to loose your father.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I went and had coffee and took a shower and came up with a more shippy archetype essay.
Thinking about archetypes, this is another reason why I think SwanFire is endgame. Emma *is* her archetype: she is the savior. For all that A and E are creative and innovative, they’ve stuck pretty close to the heroes journey as laid out by Joseph Campbell. If you think about the most popular savior figures in the past 100 years a few spring to mind–Frodo Baggins, Luke Skywalker, and Harry Potter. Emma Swan fits pretty neatly with those guys because A and E don’t subvert archetype so much as they subvert gender, Emma instead of Emmett for instance. Most of you (if not all of you) have read or seen some (if not read or seen all) of the books/movies of those male characters. Similarities out the wazoo, right? Orphan, a call to adventure (Henry in the Pilot, Gandalf to Frodo, Obi Wan to Luke, Hagrid to Harry), the refusal to be part of the adventure and so on and so forth. Emma fits right in, it’s just that’s she’s a girl.
However, with that said, one of the biggest differences between Emma Swan and those other guys is that she is continuously trying to reject her archetype. She knows she is the Savior but she doesn’t really want to be and if she could, she’d get out of it. Think back to the episode Lost Girl, Emma sitting in front of Peter’s map trying to figure out its secrets. When she starts talking to the map, she doesn’t automatically go to the “savior” role even though it’s the most obvious–why would Pan care about the more mundane aspects of Emma’s Swan’s life, right? But Emma lists the things that are important to her–she’s from Boston, she’s a bail bondsperson, she’s the sheriff, she’s Henry’s mother. It’s only with prompting that she begins to go more mythic–daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, the offspring of true love. And still she hesitates before giving her archetype, “the S word” as Regina says, rolling her eyes. For Emma, being the Savior is something she has to do, not something she wants to do. And what does she want to do: be Emma Swan, mother, sheriff, daughter, normal. Her archetype doesn’t define her in her eyes and she *really* doesn’t want it to.
I think there is a reason why they keep having Hook call her in the Savior in passing. Hook is an archetype just like she is–the Sailor, the Pirate. But unlike Emma, he revels in his archetype. He enjoys it. So much so that instead of rejecting his archetype after Liam died, he simply moved to a darker version of it. Hook is at his best when he’s fighting giants, sailing the high seas, climbing beanstalks, rescuing ladies, ect. Hook sees Emma has being on par with him, two archetypes that should be working in tandem and in love. The Pirate and the Savior. When you reduce them to their archetype, it makes a lot of sense. So Hook rarely calls her “Emma,” he calls her “Swan” or “Savior, constant reminders that she’s an archetype.
But now look at Neal. Like I said a few posts up, Neal suffers from “lack of archetype” syndrome. He’s not really any specific stock character–the closest one being “the lost son,” but Nealfire doesn’t feel like a lost son after 300 years. His father, Rumple, tries to make him feel like the lost son but Neal has more or less rejected that label once he found Emma and their home.
Sound familiar? In the same way that Emma rejects her archetype of Savior, Neal no longer considers himself the lost son. He has moved beyond the mythic to the human. His main characterization now is that he’s a man in love, fighting for the woman he loves and his family. Neal can give Emma what she wants–the human life, even though Emma will also always belong to the mythic realm as the Savior. Neal never refers to her as the Savior, just Emma. To him, at the end of the day, Neal doesn’t love the Savior (he doesn’t unlove her either) but he loves Emma. And that’s what Emma wants–someone who loves plain ol’ Emma, not the SAVIOR.
(that was long) (maybe I need to stop drinking coffee)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Sound familiar? In the same way that Emma rejects her archetype of Savior, Neal no longer considers himself the lost son. He has moved beyond the mythic to the human. His main characterization now is that heâs a man in love, fighting for the woman he loves and his family. Neal can give Emma what she wantsâthe human life, even though Emma will also always belong to the mythic realm as the Savior. Neal never refers to her as the Savior, just Emma. To him, at the end of the day, Neal doesnât love the Savior (he doesnât unlove her either) but he loves Emma. And thatâs what Emma wantsâsomeone who loves plain olâ Emma, not the SAVIOR.
This totally fits with how Emma regards Baelfire, “He was always just Neal to me.” She knew him and loved him before she knew he was Baelfire, son of Rumplestiltskin. Likewise, Neal knew Emma and loved her before he knew she was destined to break the curse. She was always just Emma to him. That’s not to say he doesn’t support her being the savior; in fact it was because she was that he let her go to fulfill her destiny and to save their people. Neal realized that the simple, everyday life they dreamed of in Tallahassee would prevent Emma from finding Storybrooke. Without Henry being adopted by the Evil Queen, Emma wouldn’t have found the undetectable town nor accepted she was magical. Emma only reluctantly accepts her mythical status, and she’d much rather have a “normal” life with Henry and arguably with Neal, the man she loves. Emma didn’t ask to be made the savior or for any of it. She told August it was “crap” and that she didn’t want any of it. She thinks the price of her being the savior means not getting to have Neal in her life, because the curses have always meant being separated from him. I think in S3b we’re going to see Emma rediscovering what it is she really wants, which is home, family and the missing piece to the puzzle: Neal.
"Thatâs how you know youâve really got a home. When you leave it, thereâs this feeling that you canât shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Happy Valentine’s Day everyone!
Remember: This isn’t over. Almost home.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I went and had coffee and took a shower and came up with a more shippy archetype essay.
Thinking about archetypes, this is another reason why I think SwanFire is endgame. Emma *is* her archetype: she is the savior. For all that A and E are creative and innovative, theyâve stuck pretty close to the heroes journey as laid out by Joseph Campbell. If you think about the most popular savior figures in the past 100 years a few spring to mindâFrodo Baggins, Luke Skywalker, and Harry Potter. Emma Swan fits pretty neatly with those guys because A and E donât subvert archetype so much as they subvert gender, Emma instead of Emmett for instance. Most of you (if not all of you) have read or seen some (if not read or seen all) of the books/movies of those male characters. Similarities out the wazoo, right? Orphan, a call to adventure (Henry in the Pilot, Gandalf to Frodo, Obi Wan to Luke, Hagrid to Harry), the refusal to be part of the adventure and so on and so forth. Emma fits right in, itâs just thatâs sheâs a girl.
However, with that said, one of the biggest differences between Emma Swan and those other guys is that she is continuously trying to reject her archetype. She knows she is the Savior but she doesnât really want to be and if she could, sheâd get out of it. Think back to the episode Lost Girl, Emma sitting in front of Peterâs map trying to figure out its secrets. When she starts talking to the map, she doesnât automatically go to the âsaviorâ role even though itâs the most obviousâwhy would Pan care about the more mundane aspects of Emmaâs Swanâs life, right? But Emma lists the things that are important to herâsheâs from Boston, sheâs a bail bondsperson, sheâs the sheriff, sheâs Henryâs mother. Itâs only with prompting that she begins to go more mythicâdaughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, the offspring of true love. And still she hesitates before giving her archetype, âthe S wordâ as Regina says, rolling her eyes. For Emma, being the Savior is something she has to do, not something she wants to do. And what does she want to do: be Emma Swan, mother, sheriff, daughter, normal. Her archetype doesnât define her in her eyes and she *really* doesnât want it to.
I think there is a reason why they keep having Hook call her in the Savior in passing. Hook is an archetype just like she isâthe Sailor, the Pirate. But unlike Emma, he revels in his archetype. He enjoys it. So much so that instead of rejecting his archetype after Liam died, he simply moved to a darker version of it. Hook is at his best when heâs fighting giants, sailing the high seas, climbing beanstalks, rescuing ladies, ect. Hook sees Emma has being on par with him, two archetypes that should be working in tandem and in love. The Pirate and the Savior. When you reduce them to their archetype, it makes a lot of sense. So Hook rarely calls her âEmma,â he calls her âSwanâ or âSavior, constant reminders that sheâs an archetype.
But now look at Neal. Like I said a few posts up, Neal suffers from âlack of archetypeâ syndrome. Heâs not really any specific stock characterâthe closest one being âthe lost son,â but Nealfire doesnât feel like a lost son after 300 years. His father, Rumple, tries to make him feel like the lost son but Neal has more or less rejected that label once he found Emma and their home.
Sound familiar? In the same way that Emma rejects her archetype of Savior, Neal no longer considers himself the lost son. He has moved beyond the mythic to the human. His main characterization now is that heâs a man in love, fighting for the woman he loves and his family. Neal can give Emma what she wantsâthe human life, even though Emma will also always belong to the mythic realm as the Savior. Neal never refers to her as the Savior, just Emma. To him, at the end of the day, Neal doesnât love the Savior (he doesnât unlove her either) but he loves Emma. And thatâs what Emma wantsâsomeone who loves plain olâ Emma, not the SAVIOR.
(that was long) (maybe I need to stop drinking coffee)
I love the way you put that into perspective RG
Sound familiar? In the same way that Emma rejects her archetype of Savior, Neal no longer considers himself the lost son. He has moved beyond the mythic to the human. His main characterization now is that heâs a man in love, fighting for the woman he loves and his family. Neal can give Emma what she wantsâthe human life, even though Emma will also always belong to the mythic realm as the Savior. Neal never refers to her as the Savior, just Emma. To him, at the end of the day, Neal doesnât love the Savior (he doesnât unlove her either) but he loves Emma. And thatâs what Emma wantsâsomeone who loves plain olâ Emma, not the SAVIOR.
This totally fits with how Emma regards Baelfire, âHe was always just Neal to me.â She knew him and loved him before she knew he was Baelfire, son of Rumplestiltskin. Likewise, Neal knew Emma and loved her before he knew she was destined to break the curse. She was always just Emma to him. Thatâs not to say he doesnât support her being the savior; in fact it was because she was that he let her go to fulfill her destiny and to save their people. Neal realized that the simple, everyday life they dreamed of in Tallahassee would prevent Emma from finding Storybrooke. Without Henry being adopted by the Evil Queen, Emma wouldnât have found the undetectable town nor accepted she was magical. Emma only reluctantly accepts her mythical status, and sheâd much rather have a ânormalâ life with Henry and arguably with Neal, the man she loves. Emma didnât ask to be made the savior or for any of it. She told August it was âcrapâ and that she didnât want any of it. She thinks the price of her being the savior means not getting to have Neal in her life, because the curses have always meant being separated from him. I think in S3b weâre going to see Emma rediscovering what it is she really wants, which is home, family and the missing piece to the puzzle: Neal.
Slurpeez I couldn’t agree with you more
I think in season 3B we will see Emma & Neal work through alot of the issues they had from Season 2 & Season 3A The only difference being now is that Emma like everyone else had in Storybrooke has two sets of memories her real memories and her cursed memories that Regina gave her & Henry in both in 3×11. I think it might make things easier for her & Neal both in one aspect to workout their issues. I believe it will be a journey of rediscovery for both of them because as Slurpeez & RG have both said Neal & Emma are both children of Iconic Fairytale characters at the end of the day neither one of then really carry about their archetype status the only things they care about is just being themselves Neal & Emma not being the son of the dark one and the product of true love and the savior. By the end of 3B I believe they will be back together. There is no question in my mind that they are indeed Endgame Just like Snow & Charming and Rumple & Belle because I see a lot of parallels in Emma & Neal’s story that tie into the stories of both Emma parents & Neal’s father & stepmother.
Keeper of Neal/BaelFire's Blood Magic, Neverland Crossbow, FTL Clothes,Room at Grannyâs, Charming & Emmaâs Father/Daughter Hugs, Henry's Neverland Crossbow, Rumplestlitskin/Mr.Gold's FTL Walking StickHeather hope you feel better.
Neal actually IS an archetype–but as with Emma, we aren’t used to seeing it subverted. He’s the plucky damsel in distress type with a mix of 80’s action hero to make him tough. Think Bruce Willis in most of his movies but particularly in Unbreakable crossed with the usual damsel role. (Funny because “Neal’s” true first appearance is “Broken”, NOT Tallahassee!).  I’m so tired of people saying his first appearance is where he’s breaking Emma’s heart, though obviously it is what people took away.
We haven’t had enough scenes of Emma smiling at Neal, or being grateful to him in some way. She’s shown a touch of sympathy here and there but it wasn’t the focus of the scene. Instead, her hurt was. I feel this is part of the journey they’re going on, to make it seem believable when they resolve those problems. It wouldn’t have worked, to go faster, and people said as it was a touch rushed for Neal to forgive Rumple as is.  On the other hand, to online fans? They expected Neal to trust Rumple the moment they reunited.
I hope that means there’s more to come because that is the story, how they work things out. How they learn to trust again, just as that’s the story between Emma and the Charmings. The midseason finale usually leaves things in a “low point” state, so the upward journey can begin in the second half of the story. The reversal should come, and things will look more hopeful!
âIf I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?â -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Neal actually IS an archetypeâbut as with Emma, we arenât used to seeing it subverted. Heâs the plucky damsel in distress type with a mix of 80â˛s action hero to make him tough.
Hmmm. Yeah, ok. I see that. Though in my head that’s a subverted TV trope vs archetype. I suppose it’s not a huge difference.
The reversal should come, and things will look more hopeful!
Everything always looks bleak before it gets better.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Darkest before the dawn!
You’re right, technically what I’m describing isn’t an archetype in the sense we’ve got a classic name for it, but we are talking about a television show, though that show is about fairytales that do have archetypes. So its confusing, but as we saw with Whale, the writers are NOT drawing influence solely from classic fairy tales or literature–they are as well taking things from classic or popular cinema as well. The very name Neal Cassidy, while a fun Peter Pan nod in itself, referenced a historic character with quite a life.  There’s some MODERN cultural mythic things happening with Neal, I suppose is my point.
Consider what influences these writers have. They wrote a sequel for Tron. Jane E. has done many sci-fi type shows, Buff, BSG, Wharehouse 13 I think.   We know A&E love Star Wars.  I don’t know about the other writers, but odds are, they’ve got similarly geeky sort of backgrounds and just might be familiar with the kind of character I’m talking about even if there’s not a name to it.
If Neal is intended as a love interest, then his development makes perfect sense as it is in keeping with how they in general, develop Charming, Henry and Belle.     Charming supports Snow, and in the first season Snow received more development but then quickly became (especially to online fans) the obstacle in Regina’s way.So then the question is, but why do they spend time on Hook? Well, they spend time on characters like Jefferson and August, and Cora. They need to have antagonists, and to show their points of view for their actions.  I believe Hook was brought in with one idea, that they morphed and stretched for various reasons, reconstituting and recyling the ideas they’d pushed aside for Jefferson, August and Mirror.  You can see elements of all their stories repeating in how they approach Hook. He’s got the costume, the looks the style of Jefferson–and the transport element. He’s got a rocky history with Rumple but we’re not sure what it is exactly.  Like August, he’s now in the “guide” role, the mysterious, do you trust him “friend” trying to get her to break the curse. Like Mirror, he’s got a crush, he’s sincere about it, but he’s perhaps not entirely aware or just doesn’t care about the feelings of his target as he’s so inside his own point of view about things.There’s more going on of course, as they did have some things in mind for Hook as an original character they brought into the story too, with NL and Pan, but I’m just saying they’ve grafted a few things on there to expand the storylines.  We’ll see I suppose whether that means they’re working him into long term plans or they’re just burning off things they’d had to sideline before due to not securing actor contracts.
âIf I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?â -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
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