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I guess for me what it comes down to is “Can someone be so flawed that they can’t redeem themselves?” and “so flawed that they can’t have love?”
I desperately need the answer to both to be no.
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
Snowing represent the “perfect” relationship on TV (Nothing will tear them apart), CaptainSwan represent the stereotypical Bad boy/Good girl dynamic (including bad boy changes to be worthy of girl). RumBelle are interesting because there relationship isn’t perfect. They bring out the best and worst in each other, they have their ups and downs, they argue and make up. RumBelle is a relationship about hope.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIt doesn’t weaken her character to decide not to be with him. In fact it is more damaging to believe that you cannot be happy without “your one true love.” It is a dangerous game A and E are playing here.
This.
So after all that pain and suffering…what outcome do you want for her? Something less than true love?
Belle deserves happiness and that doesn’t have to come fro a relationship and even then, it doesn’t have to come from one with Rumpel. True Love is not the ultimate form of happiness. You can be just as happy being alone…*Watcher looks in the mirror and remembers it Valentines Day T_T*
And when all that pain and suffering has been because of her true love…what ending do *you* want for her? How about self respect. How about internal peace? How about knowing that she had the strength to stand up and say, “I love you….but I love myself too. And I deserve better than constantly looking over my shoulder wondering if/when you will decide that power is more important than me”
And when all that pain and suffering has been because of her true love…what ending do *you* want for her? How about self respect. How about internal peace? How about knowing that she had the strength to stand up and say, “I love you….but I love myself too. And I deserve better than constantly looking over my shoulder wondering if/when you will decide that power is more important than me”
By that logic then Snowing shouldn’t be together because all the crap that has happened to Charming has been because of Snow and her feud with Regina. Belle has self respect and strength. If she didn’t she’d never have kicked Rumple out of Storybrooke, she’d never stand up for herself, she’d never call Rumple out on his crap. Belle giving Rumple a second chance does not mean she’s lost her self-respect or strength and that she’s become a doormat.
Major difference is that Charming never hurt Snow. There was another party. Rumple is directly responsible for his own actions. Charming got caught up in Snow’s drama but *Snow* was never the one setting out to hurt Charming.
think Belle should take Rumple back after he has earned her trust and forgiveness because he loves her and she loves him. He screwed up, that doesn’t mean he can’t try and make it right.
He earned her trust and forgiveness once. And look what he did as soon as he had it. How many times until you realize that isn’t going to save a soul Until sometimes, love…it ain’t enough.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I guess for me what it comes down to is “Can someone be so flawed that they can’t redeem themselves?” and “so flawed that they can’t have love?” I desperately need the answer to both to be no.
You keep assuming that these are dependent on each other. Rumple can redeem himself, but that does not mean that he automatically gets his cookies back. Sometimes redemption is inner peace and tranquality and facing the consequences of your actions: his son FREAKING DIED AND HE STILL WENT ON THE SUPER DUPER EVIL WARPATH. He doesn’t get to come back from super duper evil warpath and get hugs and kisses from Belle because “oh, I promise it’ll be different THIS TIME!! Trust me!!”
And “so flawed that they can’t have love…” no he had love. And he threw it away because he wanted his power too. And now he has to live with those actions.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Major difference is that Charming never hurt Snow. There was another party. Rumple is directly responsible for his own actions. Charming got caught up in Snow’s drama but *Snow* was never the one setting out to hurt Charming.
Rumple never set out to hurt Belle. It was other parties that hurt Belle ie Hook and Regina because they wanted to use her as a pawn against Rumple. Regina tried to use Charming against Snow. Hook planned to use Baelfire against Rumple.
He earned her trust and forgiveness once. And look what he did as soon as he had it. How many times until you realize that isn’t going to save a soul Until sometimes, love…it ain’t enough.
Characters screw up, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get a second chance to make things right. That’s like saying Emma should never have forgiven Neal because he abandoned her and she ended up in jail because of the watches.
You keep assuming that these are dependent on each other. Rumple can redeem himself, but that does not mean that he automatically gets his cookies back. Sometimes redemption is inner peace and tranquality and facing the consequences of your actions: his son FREAKING DIED AND HE STILL WENT ON THE SUPER DUPER EVIL WARPATH. He doesn’t get to come back from super duper evil warpath and get hugs and kisses from Belle because “oh, I promise it’ll be different THIS TIME!! Trust me!!”
He went on the “super duper evil warpath” because his son died. People don’t always react to grief in a healthy way. Yes Rumple had a backslide but why should he redeem himself and get told “screw you” when both Hook and Regina get to “redeem” themselves and get handed a happy ending?
And “so flawed that they can’t have love…” no he had love. And he threw it away because he wanted his power too. And now he has to live with those actions.
Rumple wants power so he can protect his loved ones but he doesn’t want to be controlled like Zelena did to him. Whilst his methods for achieving that goal were wrong, the motivation behind it is sound. Rumple had 3 choices and all of them had downsides. Rumple was in a no-win situation.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixRumple never set out to hurt Belle. It was other parties that hurt Belle ie Hook and Regina because they wanted to use her as a pawn against Rumple. Regina tried to use Charming against Snow. Hook planned to use Baelfire against Rumple.
Must be why Rumple was up front and honest with Belle from the start. Oh wait. He hurt her by lying to her. He doesn’t need to physically hurt her to be in that category. He lied, he manipulated, he magicked her. She put all her faith and trust into her, and he KNEW that, and still went and lied his lying pants off not to mention the hat sucking and the heart taking and the almost heart crushing. All of which deeply wounds Belle because Rumple’s actions have far reaching consequences, outside those that he is directly targeting.
Characters screw up, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get a second chance to make things right. That’s like saying Emma should never have forgiven Neal because he abandoned her and she ended up in jail because of the watches.
Of course characters screw up. However, not all of them murder people in the process. Rumple’s motivations were 10000000000% selfish. Neal’s were not. And Emma *did* have a hard time forgiving him and she did not take him back. She admitted it was hard. She said it was painful. She didn’t know if they could go back to what once was. And then writers killed him.
He went on the “super duper evil warpath” because his son died. People don’t always react to grief in a healthy way. Yes Rumple had a backslide but why should he redeem himself and get told “screw you” when both Hook and Regina get to “redeem” themselves and get handed a happy ending?
Funny how he never ONCE mentions Neal when he’s giving a run down to Regina about why he is “taking” his happy ending. Funny how the death of his son never enters into a conversation with Belle (or even Hook or Ingrid) when she’s about to shove him over the town line. Coming back from the dead? Yes. Being held captive by the WW? Yes. Neal dying in front of his eye? NOPE.
And please…point to where I said Rumple should get told “screw you” and shouldn’t get a happy ending. You seem to think that a happy ending for Rumple *must* include Rumbelle. Well, Rumple is *never* going to have a happy ending…not a complete one. It will always be a bitter sweet one because Bealfire is gone. A happy ending does not, under any circumstance, HAVE to include some sort of romantic true love. Ever. For anyone.
Rumple’s bitter sweet happy ending can be peace of mind, tranquility, self love and knowledge that he made horrendous mistakes but that he’s atoning for it. He lost a lot, but he’s not the monster he once was. And yeah, maybe that means he doesn’t get the love life with Belle. Well, maybe that’s your price, Rumplestiltskin.
Rumple wants power so he can protect his loved ones but he doesn’t want to be controlled like Zelena did to him. Whilst his methods for achieving that goal were wrong, the motivation behind it is sound. Rumple had 3 choices and all of them had downsides. Rumple was in a no-win situation.
He wants power because he’s an addict. Once an addict, always an addict. There is no cure for addiction. He will always be an addict. You can take away his DO’s powers and he’ll still long for the power that he once had. The desire for power is only in part for protecting his loved ones. Or do I need to remind you that he tried to suck Emma, his son’s love and his grandson’s mother, into a hat and rob her of her powers and maybe even her life (depending on what fate lies inside that hat). So no. It’s not about protecting those he loves, not totally. It’s about himself. That’s how they’ve chosen to write him. No motivation was sound…it was selfish. Hence why at the town line he even says “I could have it all” and then catches himself before trying to reassure that it was for Belle too. As if Belle would ever want that from him. As if that is even remotely what Belle would want *for him* His plan also made ZERO sense logisitically. Magic doesn’t work outside in the real world, so cleaving himself from the dagger and then leaving SB is totally pointless given that he’s powerless (dagger or not!) out there in the real world. His entire motus operandi is himself at this point.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t know what else to add to that whole post @rumplesgirl because everything you said was perfect.
Must be why Rumple was up front and honest with Belle from the start. Oh wait. He hurt her by lying to her. He doesn’t need to physically hurt her to be in that category. He lied, he manipulated, he magicked her. She put all her faith and trust into her, and he KNEW that, and still went and lied his lying pants off not to mention the hat sucking and the heart taking and the almost heart crushing. All of which deeply wounds Belle because Rumple’s actions have far reaching consequences, outside those that he is directly targeting.
Rumple has trouble opening up to people. A long held habit that has served him well over his lifetime. Rumple’s survived this long by not shouting his mouth off about his plans. Rumple knew what he was doing wasn’t right but there wasn’t any other way to be free of the dagger. And I could see why Rumple didn’t tell Belle, he knew she’d disapprove, he knew she’d hate him for it and he didn’t want her to hate him for it. Rumple couldn’t care less if he had the whole town against him so long as he had Belle on his side, he couldn’t bear to lose Belle.
Of course characters screw up. However, not all of them murder people in the process. Rumple’s motivations were 10000000000% selfish. Neal’s were not. And Emma *did* have a hard time forgiving him and she did not take him back. She admitted it was hard. She said it was painful. She didn’t know if they could go back to what once was. And then writers killed him.
“And then the writers killed him” is the main issue here. If Neal had lived, would you not be rooting for a SwanFire reunion? Nobody is saying Belle should take Rumple back immediately. We want Rumple to have to earn Belle’s forgiveness, not have it handed back to him on a plate.
Funny how he never ONCE mentions Neal when he’s giving a run down to Regina about why he is “taking” his happy ending. Funny how the death of his son never enters into a conversation with Belle (or even Hook or Ingrid) when she’s about to shove him over the town line. Coming back from the dead? Yes. Being held captive by the WW? Yes. Neal dying in front of his eye? NOPE.
The aftermath of Neal’s death has been handled poorly but just because Neal’s name isn’t mentioned in very scene doesn’t mean the characters aren’t affected by it. Some people have a hard time talking about the death of a loved one, sometimes they prefer not to mention it and just try and get on with their life and internalise the pain. Sometimes it is just bad writing that the character’s emotions aren’t clearly conveyed. Had Neal lived, would Rumple be in the place he is now? Probably not.
4A was too busy with the shiny Frozen things to give the original characters the character development they deserved so Rumple did come across as very power mad in 4A because his motivations weren’t explored and were only mentioned in passing.
And please…point to where I said Rumple should get told “screw you” and shouldn’t get a happy ending. You seem to think that a happy ending for Rumple *must* include Rumbelle. Well, Rumple is *never* going to have a happy ending…not a complete one. It will always be a bitter sweet one because Bealfire is gone. A happy ending does not, under any circumstance, HAVE to include some sort of romantic true love. Ever. For anyone.
I was talking about a general “screw you” not that you said he should get told “screw you”. And of course Rumple’s happy ending includes Belle, she loves him and he loves her. And for someone who believed he was unlovable, to have someone that does love him would be a happy ending. True, a happy ending doesn’t HAVE to include a romance but that doesn’t mean it CAN’T. It’s all dependent on the individual character, and for someone like Rumple, I believe that does include Belle.
Rumple’s bitter sweet happy ending can be peace of mind, tranquility, self love and knowledge that he made horrendous mistakes but that he’s atoning for it. He lost a lot, but he’s not the monster he once was. And yeah, maybe that means he doesn’t get the love life with Belle. Well, maybe that’s your price, Rumplestiltskin.
Yes because losing one love one permanently isn’t enough, Rumple has to be alone and miserable. And Rumple did try that particular “happy ending” you described, and where did it get him? Resurrected under the control of the WW with a dead son. The price for being “good” resulted in Neal’s death.
He wants power because he’s an addict. Once an addict, always an addict. There is no cure for addiction. He will always be an addict. You can take away his DO’s powers and he’ll still long for the power that he once had. The desire for power is only in part for protecting his loved ones. Or do I need to remind you that he tried to suck Emma, his son’s love and his grandson’s mother, into a hat and rob her of her powers and maybe even her life (depending on what fate lies inside that hat). So no. It’s not about protecting those he loves, not totally. It’s about himself. That’s how they’ve chosen to write him. No motivation was sound…it was selfish. Hence why at the town line he even says “I could have it all” and then catches himself before trying to reassure that it was for Belle too. As if Belle would ever want that from him. As if that is even remotely what Belle would want *for him* His plan also made ZERO sense logisitically. Magic doesn’t work outside in the real world, so cleaving himself from the dagger and then leaving SB is totally pointless given that he’s powerless (dagger or not!) out there in the real world. His entire motus operandi is himself at this point.
Rumple may be an addict but he has reasons that fuel his addiction including the fact that he believes he needs power to protect his loved ones and this belief is reinforced when the heroes constantly come running to him for help when a new big bad rolls into town.
Sucking Emma into the hat was not pre-meditated, it was a spur of the moment decision, and would’ve screwed Ingrid’s plan right up and might have even prevented her from unleashing the shattered sight spell sin the whole reason for the SS spell was so that Ingrid, Elsa and Emma were the last people standing. If Rumple truly wanted Emma in that hat, she’d be in the hat.
The writers didn’t explore Rumple’s motivation in 4A, too much shiny going on. They didn’t explore Robin’s conflict properly either, again too much shiny going on. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, just that the audience had to come to their own conclusion, which is bad writing.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixAnd I could see why Rumple didn’t tell Belle, he knew she’d disapprove, he knew she’d hate him for it and he didn’t want her to hate him for it.
So maybe he shouldn’t have done it then! “My wife and love of my life is not going to like this because we both know it’s wrong and involves reverting back to a piece of myself that is not good…nah, I just won’t tell her! That’ll be totes okay.”
And then the writers killed him” is the main issue here. If Neal had lived, would you not be rooting for a SwanFire reunion? Nobody is saying Belle should take Rumple back immediately. We want Rumple to have to earn Belle’s forgiveness, not have it handed back to him on a plate.
Well how does one earn forgiveness when one cannot earn trust. Why should she ever trust him ever again? She did once and he deceived and lied her all along.
The aftermath of Neal’s death has been handled poorly but just because Neal’s name isn’t mentioned in very scene doesn’t mean the characters aren’t affected by it. Some people have a hard time talking about the death of a loved one, sometimes they prefer not to mention it and just try and get on with their life and internalise the pain.
Yeah, I am aware of how human handle pain and the differences. And no where did I say they needed to mention Neal in every scene. But his father mentioning his son’s death–in front of his every eyes—golly, you’d think that’d be a factor for going down super duper evil route. But NOPE. Not even Adam and Eddy speak about Neal in their interviews. It’s all about Rumple’s selfishness. They deliberately go out of their way NOT to mention Neal’s death and how it’s affecting *anyone*–like Henry not talking about his dad at all this season. So far as A and E are concerned, Neal’s death isn’t a factor in this Rumple arc. It’s all about his selfish addictive nature.
Yes because losing one love one permanently isn’t enough, Rumple has to be alone and miserable. And Rumple did try that particular “happy ending” you described, and where did it get him? Resurrected under the control of the WW with a dead son. The price for being “good” resulted in Neal’s death.
Dear god. Where did I say *that* I didn’t. I did not say alone and miserable. Some people are perfectly fine being alone and having inner peace. Especially…ESPECIALLY…after they’ve lost so much. They prefer to be alone. And again, I never said alone. He’ll always have Henry and you know Snowing won’t leave him alone, and Regina wouldn’t either. He can be a member of the family without having Belle.
And…what? He tired that particular happy ending? Um. No. He tried death. The happy ending I am describing isn’t death. Being alone isn’t death nor is it even akin to it.
Sucking Emma into the hat was not pre-meditated, it was a spur of the moment decision, and would’ve screwed Ingrid’s plan right up and might have even prevented her from unleashing the shattered sight spell sin the whole reason for the SS spell was so that Ingrid, Elsa and Emma were the last people standing. If Rumple truly wanted Emma in that hat, she’d be in the hat.
No it wasn’t. Rumple had hours afterwards to stop his plan but he didn’t. He went ahead with it, but he wasn’t to have his hands metaphorically clean and tell himself that he was giving her a choice, but listen to his words very carefully. He’s not giving her a choice. He’s telling her that a hero would go into that room, and he’s not a hero which is why he wouldn’t. But for Emma, ture blue hero, that means going into that room. He’s using word manipulation, just like he always does, to get what he wants. The fact that Elsa showed up wasn’t part of his plan. And then afterwards, he said he’d get Emma or her power equivalency another way. And then! He didn’t care if she was controlled by Ingrid or lost her entire family!
The writers didn’t explore Rumple’s motivation in 4A, too much shiny going on. They didn’t explore Robin’s conflict properly either, again too much shiny going on. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, just that the audience had to come to their own conclusion, which is bad writing.
Except the audience can’t decide what the conclusion is. You’re arguing a subjective conclusion and so am I. It doesn’t mean that your conclusion that you see is there is “right” just because you see it. Same as mine.
I get it. You want your OTP together. Like I’ve said 1000001 times now, A and E aren’t going to split up Rumbelle forever. 11 episodes from now, they’ll be happy once again because I’m sure that’s how they roll. Never mind that it will be poorly handled and won’t make much sense and will continue to reduce their once colorful characters to sad parodies of themselves because the focus is elsewhere.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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