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So maybe he shouldn’t have done it then! “My wife and love of my life is not going to like this because we both know it’s wrong and involves reverting back to a piece of myself that is not good…nah, I just won’t tell her! That’ll be totes okay.”
Rumple had 1 of 3 options:
1. He does TLK with Belle, breaks the curse and becomes powerless- All well and good until a new big bad comes to town and the heroes go crying to him for help only this time he can’t do anything. This also leaves Belle and himself vulnerable to whatever the big bad has in store especially if the big bad has a vendetta against Rumple specifically.
2. He keeps his powers and remains enslaved to the dagger- He’s running the risk of another Zelena situation happening. If it happened once, it can happen again, only this time the person might be 10 times worse than Zelena.
3. He frees himself from the dagger but keeps his powers- This sound like the best of the bunch, however it involves hatting people he doesn’t like, crushing the heart of someone he really doesn’t like who had tried to blackmail him and made threats against Belle in the past and present, and if Belle found out she’d hate him for it.
Rumple’s choices were powerless and vulnerable, powerful but a risk to others, or powerful but not a risk but achieving this through less than moral means. Whatever Rumple chose, there would be a downside, there was no “winning” or wholly “right” choice.
Well how does one earn forgiveness when one cannot earn trust. Why should she ever trust him ever again? She did once and he deceived and lied her all along.
“Forgive but don’t forget” is basically this in a nutshell. It will take a while for Belle to trust Rumple again. In fact I’d be quite happy if 4B ended where RumBelle had just reached that stage where they were starting to build bridges again and then season 5 built on that. I’m not expecting RumBelle back together by the end of 4B as if nothing had happened (though I do wonder if the 6 week jump is so that RumBelle are slightly further down the road towards reconciliation rather than if the story had picked up exactly after Belle kicked Rumple over the town line).
Yeah, I am aware of how human handle pain and the differences. And no where did I say they needed to mention Neal in every scene. But his father mentioning his son’s death–in front of his every eyes—golly, you’d think that’d be a factor for going down super duper evil route. But NOPE. Not even Adam and Eddy speak about Neal in their interviews. It’s all about Rumple’s selfishness. They deliberately go out of their way NOT to mention Neal’s death and how it’s affecting *anyone*–like Henry not talking about his dad at all this season. So far as A and E are concerned, Neal’s death isn’t a factor in this Rumple arc. It’s all about his selfish addictive nature.
A&E were too preoccupied with Shiny Frozen things! in 4A to bother doing any of the regular characters justice. As Screwball Ninja so succinctly put it, character development for the regulars was “frozen”. They had the perfect setup for WHY Rumple was doing what he did: Neal’s death, trauma from what Zelena did to him, etc, but instead the reason A&E gave for Rumple’s actions in 4A “just evil and selfish I guess”. It’s as if they’d forgotten the entirety of 3B. I was annoyed by their “Rumple is the devil himself” comment in one of their interviews because that is not the Rumple we’ve been watching for the past 3 seasons.
Dear god. Where did I say *that* I didn’t. I did not say alone and miserable. Some people are perfectly fine being alone and having inner peace. Especially…ESPECIALLY…after they’ve lost so much. They prefer to be alone. And again, I never said alone. He’ll always have Henry and you know Snowing won’t leave him alone, and Regina wouldn’t either. He can be a member of the family without having Belle.
1. Snowing does not give a crap about Rumple unless they want his help. In season 2, they were happy to leave RumBelle to die with the rest of the town whilst they gathered their friends in the diner and planned to portal out of there.
2. Henry only spends time with Rumple when he wants something, eg to have Rumple wipe his memory because he’s got the hump with Regina or to snoop around Rumple’s shop for Regina or to serve as a plot device to screw up the RumBelle relationship. He never spends time with Rumple because he wants to spend time with Rumple.
3. Regina is the most likely one to give Rumple the time of day but even that is dependant on what kind of mood she’s in, if she wants something or if she’s too preoccupied with OutlawQueen.
Whether or not romantic love is part of a happy ending for a character is dependent on the character themselves. For example, Emma spent her childhood feeling unwanted by her family, therefore her happy ending could easily be not romantic love but surrounded by her family. For Rumple, who’s spent his life feeling unlovable and the only person who accepted him was Bae, it would make sense that his happy ending would include Belle because she is the only other person aside from Bae who has accepted and loved him for who he is (also it’s a little late in the game to try and set up any new romantic relationships for the regulars).
And…what? He tired that particular happy ending? Um. No. He tried death. The happy ending I am describing isn’t death. Being alone isn’t death nor is it even akin to it.
What kind of happy ending is a character’s happy ending is dependent on the character themselves. Since Rumple’s spent much of his life feeling unloved and unlovable, it makes sense that his happy ending would include being loved. Since Belle and Bae are the only two people that have loved him, it makes sence that his happy ending would include Belle, even more so now that Bae is dead unfortunately.
No it wasn’t. Rumple had hours afterwards to stop his plan but he didn’t. He went ahead with it, but he wasn’t to have his hands metaphorically clean and tell himself that he was giving her a choice, but listen to his words very carefully. He’s not giving her a choice. He’s telling her that a hero would go into that room, and he’s not a hero which is why he wouldn’t. But for Emma, ture blue hero, that means going into that room. He’s using word manipulation, just like he always does, to get what he wants. The fact that Elsa showed up wasn’t part of his plan. And then afterwards, he said he’d get Emma or her power equivalency another way. And then! He didn’t care if she was controlled by Ingrid or lost her entire family!
Okay, 2 possible things.
1. If Emma had been hatted, that would have likely screwed up Ingrid’s plan meaning the SS spell might not have happened thus saving Storybrooke. Rumple said something along the lines of “I don’t need to betray all of Storybrooke, just you and Emma”. This has an air of “the needs of the many override the needs of the few”. Yes Rumple worked out how he could benefit either way but it seemed more of a Plan A/Plan B kind of thing.
2. Hatting Emma might’ve stopped Ingrid’s plans but because that didn’t happen, there might not have been a way to stop it once she sets the wheels in motion. Therefore Rumple resorts to plan B, saving who he can. Because of the ice wall preventing anyone from leaving, Rumple had to choose who to save because he couldn’t save everyone and obviously he chose the people who were closest to him.
Except the audience can’t decide what the conclusion is. You’re arguing a subjective conclusion and so am I. It doesn’t mean that your conclusion that you see is there is “right” just because you see it. Same as mine.
This we agree on I guess. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I get it. You want your OTP together. Like I’ve said 1000001 times now, A and E aren’t going to split up Rumbelle forever. 11 episodes from now, they’ll be happy once again because I’m sure that’s how they roll. Never mind that it will be poorly handled and won’t make much sense and will continue to reduce their once colorful characters to sad parodies of themselves because the focus is elsewhere.
By the end of the 11 episodes, I think RumBelle should’ve reached the stage where they are starting to build bridges again and then season 5 continues that. I’ll be honest I won’t complain if they are happily back together by the end of the 11 episodes but I do think it needs to take a little longer than that especially if the 11 episodes only span a week timewise and it’s the first time they’ve seen each other since Belle banished Rumple.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix1. He does TLK with Belle, breaks the curse and becomes powerless- All well and good until a new big bad comes to town and the heroes go crying to him for help only this time he can’t do anything. This also leaves Belle and himself vulnerable to whatever the big bad has in store especially if the big bad has a vendetta against Rumple specifically.
Rumbelle TLK does not work in SB for reasons that have never been fully explained outside of “plot” and that A and E have no idea how to write Rumple as struggling to be good/actually good. That’s the reason (the real reason) why they turned him evil again. They find their good characters boring (hello Snow and Charming) so they keep having their antiheroes fall off the proverbial wagon so that they can remain excited about them.
We know TLK itself works in SB–Snow and Charming in S2. The in-show reason they have given for why Rumbelle TLK does not work was said by Belle at the end of the season (an episode written by A and E): he loves his power more.
2. He keeps his powers and remains enslaved to the dagger- He’s running the risk of another Zelena situation happening. If it happened once, it can happen again, only this time the person might be 10 times worse than Zelena.
Sure. That’s a risk. However the only reason Zelena got the dagger was because Rumple threw it to her (the dumbest move in the history of dumb since Belle was literally standing right freaking there). Before that Cora once got it, but that means Rumple had 300 years of not being under any control. He’s an expert at hiding it. Cleaving himself from the dagger is not exactly a bad idea but when it involves mass murder (or hat sucking) then…yeah we need to reevaluate. Look for another option. Not lie to everyone we know.
Rumple’s choices were powerless and vulnerable, powerful but a risk to others, or powerful but not a risk but achieving this through less than moral means. Whatever Rumple chose, there would be a downside, there was no “winning” or wholly “right” choice.
Yes, but the option he chose was wholly wrong because mass murder (hat sucking) is wrong. I don’t care how useless they are, killing (hat sucking) a bunch of nuns is wrong, as is heart taking unless we suddenly think every instance of heart taking is justified because “the ends justify the means” in which case we’re looking at a very morally twisted show that really needs some serious help in the ethics department.
“Forgive but don’t forget” is basically this in a nutshell. It will take a while for Belle to trust Rumple again. In fact I’d be quite happy if 4B ended where RumBelle had just reached that stage where they were starting to build bridges again and then season 5 built on that. I’m not expecting RumBelle back together by the end of 4B as if nothing had happened (though I do wonder if the 6 week jump is so that RumBelle are slightly further down the road towards reconciliation rather than if the story had picked up exactly after Belle kicked Rumple over the town line).
How can they be further down the reconciliation line if they haven’t seen each other in 6 weeks and Rumple literally shows up as this seasons big bad, carting three villains who basically (probably) want to kill/take away the heroes happy endings? That’s not positive progress for Rumbelle. If anything, it’s exactly what Belle doesn’t want to see from Rumple…at all, ever. All it does is reinforce her belief that he is now more beast than man.
And I literally have no idea how Belle could ever trust him again. He’s an addict. He’ll always be an addict. He’ll always be teetering on the edge and the slightly provocation, say a big bad villain coming to town and threatening Belle, would push him over and he’ll start murdering the peasants again. I have no doubt that A and E will do it, but that doesn’t mean that it will be well written and logical and won’t be seriously ethically and morally disturbing.
They had the perfect setup for WHY Rumple was doing what he did: Neal’s death, trauma from what Zelena did to him, etc, but instead the reason A&E gave for Rumple’s actions in 4A “just evil and selfish I guess”. It’s as if they’d forgotten the entirety of 3B. I was annoyed by their “Rumple is the devil himself” comment in one of their interviews because that is not the Rumple we’ve been watching for the past 3 seasons.
Well I agree, but just because you and I think there should be a human and natural response to why Rumple is doing what he is doing (ie: Neal) doesn’t mean diddly squat when the writers don’t present it that way. We have to go on what they’ve shown/told us, which is that Neal ‘s death doesn’t factor into this at all and thus trying to use it as an excuse is futile because it’s a total fanwank that doesn’t fit in the established canon of the show.
1. Snowing does not give a crap about Rumple unless they want his help. In season 2, they were happy to leave RumBelle to die with the rest of the town whilst they gathered their friends in the diner and planned to portal out of there.
You seem to be forgetting that Rumple told them he didn’t care if he died, he had nothing left to live for and basically told them to go screw themselves. Also, Snowing told everyone that they would come up with another plan to save the town, which means saving everyone in it…which means Rumbelle.
2. Henry only spends time with Rumple when he wants something, eg to have Rumple wipe his memory because he’s got the hump with Regina or to snoop around Rumple’s shop for Regina or to serve as a plot device to screw up the RumBelle relationship. He never spends time with Rumple because he wants to spend time with Rumple.
I don’t disagree but A and E do *use* Henry as a humanization tool for Rumple. They always have. Just because they absolutely suck at writing natural human emotion in Henry (post S1 at least) doesn’t mean that they don’t utilize him. Rumple was going to take Henry with him over the line with Belle. It doesn’t matter what motivation A and E crappily use to force Henry and Rumple together, the point is that they do put them together and would continue to do because A and E have drunk their own Kool Aid that this show continues to be about family.
For example, Emma spent her childhood feeling unwanted by her family, therefore her happy ending could easily be not romantic love but surrounded by her family. For Rumple, who’s spent his life feeling unlovable and the only person who accepted him was Bae, it would make sense that his happy ending would include Belle because she is the only other person aside from Bae who has accepted and loved him for who he is (also it’s a little late in the game to try and set up any new romantic relationships for the regulars).
1) Neal accepted Emma so your logic is rather flawed him in both instances it’s Nealfire who is doing the acceptance. Therefore Emma’s HEA would naturally include some form of acceptance she she’s had it in the past because your argument is that once someone has one person that accepted them, they naturally want to find that in their present and for their future.
And 2) who says they need to set up romantic relationships this far down the road for the regulars. There is nothing that says every single character *must* have a romantic end. Also…they wrote the Rumbelle love story in literally one episode (never knowing if they’d ever get EdR back) and you expect them to fix Rumbelle in 11. So…yeah, they could totally pair Rumple and/or Belle with an entirely new person in a short amount of time. Doesn’t mean it would be well executed or well received but…they could do it.
What kind of happy ending is a character’s happy ending is dependent on the character themselves. Since Rumple’s spent much of his life feeling unloved and unlovable, it makes sense that his happy ending would include being loved. Since Belle and Bae are the only two people that have loved him, it makes sence that his happy ending would include Belle, even more so now that Bae is dead unfortunately.
Yes I know all this. And prior to S4A I would still be shipping Rumbelle as passionately as I always have. But I cannot ship them the way they are being written now. It’s disturbing. Belle forgives and places all her trust in a man, once again, who went out of his way to gleefully murder (hat suck) people he didn’t like. It makes Rumple a sociopath and Belle…well, honestly…it makes her an idiot. Even without all the lying and the deception and the hat sucking, Rumple has done things that are down right disturbing TO BELLE. Like magicking her which is really horrifying.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"By the end of the 11 episodes, I think RumBelle should’ve reached the stage where they are starting to build bridges again and then season 5 continues that. .
Ummm… Noooo. Rumpel is this season’s Big Bad. He will be actively going against our heroes, and evn if he turns to the side of good, it’ll be after several episodes. Giving RumBelle even LESS time to be trying to fix their relationship. I dont think 11 episodes is enough time to fix what has been done between them. Personally. I’d rather have an entire season of that.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC2. He keeps his powers and remains enslaved to the dagger- He’s running the risk of another Zelena situation happening. If it happened once, it can happen again, only this time the person might be 10 times worse than Zelena.
Sure. That’s a risk. However the only reason Zelena got the dagger was because Rumple threw it to her (the dumbest move in the history of dumb since Belle was literally standing right freaking there). Before that Cora once got it, but that means Rumple had 300 years of not being under any control. He’s an expert at hiding it. Cleaving himself from the dagger is not exactly a bad idea but when it involves mass murder (or hat sucking) then…yeah we need to reevaluate. Look for another option. Not lie to everyone we know.
Rumple’s choices were powerless and vulnerable, powerful but a risk to others, or powerful but not a risk but achieving this through less than moral means. Whatever Rumple chose, there would be a downside, there was no “winning” or wholly “right” choice.
Yes, but the option he chose was wholly wrong because mass murder (hat sucking) is wrong. I don’t care how useless they are, killing (hat sucking) a bunch of nuns is wrong, as is heart taking unless we suddenly think every instance of heart taking is justified because “the ends justify the means” in which case we’re looking at a very morally twisted show that really needs some serious help in the ethics department.
“Forgive but don’t forget” is basically this in a nutshell. It will take a while for Belle to trust Rumple again. In fact I’d be quite happy if 4B ended where RumBelle had just reached that stage where they were starting to build bridges again and then season 5 built on that. I’m not expecting RumBelle back together by the end of 4B as if nothing had happened (though I do wonder if the 6 week jump is so that RumBelle are slightly further down the road towards reconciliation rather than if the story had picked up exactly after Belle kicked Rumple over the town line).
How can they be further down the reconciliation line if they haven’t seen each other in 6 weeks and Rumple literally shows up as this seasons big bad, carting three villains who basically (probably) want to kill/take away the heroes happy endings? That’s not positive progress for Rumbelle. If anything, it’s exactly what Belle doesn’t want to see from Rumple…at all, ever. All it does is reinforce her belief that he is now more beast than man.
And I literally have no idea how Belle could ever trust him again. He’s an addict. He’ll always be an addict. He’ll always be teetering on the edge and the slightly provocation, say a big bad villain coming to town and threatening Belle, would push him over and he’ll start murdering the peasants again. I have no doubt that A and E will do it, but that doesn’t mean that it will be well written and logical and won’t be seriously ethically and morally disturbing.
What kind of happy ending is a character’s happy ending is dependent on the character themselves. Since Rumple’s spent much of his life feeling unloved and unlovable, it makes sense that his happy ending would include being loved. Since Belle and Bae are the only two people that have loved him, it makes sence that his happy ending would include Belle, even more so now that Bae is dead unfortunately.
Yes I know all this. And prior to S4A I would still be shipping Rumbelle as passionately as I always have. But I cannot ship them the way they are being written now. It’s disturbing. Belle forgives and places all her trust in a man, once again, who went out of his way to gleefully murder (hat suck) people he didn’t like. It makes Rumple a sociopath and Belle…well, honestly…it makes her an idiot. Even without all the lying and the deception and the hat sucking, Rumple has done things that are down right disturbing TO BELLE. Like magicking her which is really horrifying.
Yup to ALL of this!!
By the end of the 11 episodes, I think RumBelle should’ve reached the stage where they are starting to build bridges again and then season 5 continues that. .
Ummm… Noooo. Rumpel is this season’s Big Bad. He will be actively going against our heroes, and evn if he turns to the side of good, it’ll be after several episodes. Giving RumBelle even LESS time to be trying to fix their relationship. I dont think 11 episodes is enough time to fix what has been done between them. Personally. I’d rather have an entire season of that.
I can even quote Eddy on that.
KITSIS | Rumple is absolutely the Big Bad. And I would also say that the three women can more than hold their own. It’s a very formidable team of evil coming our way.
http://tvline.com/2014/12/15/once-upon-a-time-season-4-cruella-de-vil-rumplestiltskin-ariel-return/
I don’t see either how Rumbelle can be fixed in 11 episodes either. I think an entire season would be needed for them. If there is even a relationship to fix at all.
Going into S4b, Rumple’s been recently banished by the one person besides his son to love him after he betrayed her. I think eventually he’ll have to make a choice: Belle or magic. Right now, he seems to have chosen power. Even up until 4×11, he was still saying to his wife that he could have it all, power and love. Yet, by choosing to keep his power, he made it clear to Belle that he was choosing magic over her, when she was saying all she wanted was to be chosen. In Belle’s opinion, it was personal betrayal by the one person she trusted most in the world (whether that trust was misplaced is another issue though). I think we’ve only begun to scratch the surface of Rumple’s descent into darkness and that he’s going to reach his darkest self yet in the coming second half of S4. He’s a man who has lost everything, and someone who has nothing left to lose can be very, very dangerous.
The only way I see Belle ever forgiving Rumple is if he were to get rid of magic entirely. However, I don’t necessarily believe that Rumple is owed a happy ending or that every villain “deserves” one. As much as I have loved Rumple as a character and loved his self-sacrifice in S3a, I think that was sadly done away with in S4a. Whether the writers intend to give Rumbelle a HEA is very much in doubt in my mind now. I think Rumbelle could become one of those tragic love stories like Romeo and Juliet, in which Belle does ultimately forgive Rumple as he lays dying, and in their parting kiss, his curse is finally undone. Whether Rumple would survive and be reborn as a mere mortal is up to the writers, but if Robert Carlyle had his way, he’d probably say that no, Rumple doesn’t deserve a happy ending with the woman he loves, because of Rumple continuously making the wrong decisions.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I’m sure the endgame will be another redemption story for Rumple and a long journey back to happily-ever-after.
Personally, I hope it’s a very long journey. But, more importantly, I hope that journey is Belle’s journey, not Rumple’s.I fell in love with Belle when she stood up for herself saying “No one determines my fate but me!” She was strong, charismatic determined and bold. I rarely saw that woman again until she confronted Rumple at the town line.
In my opinion, her Storybrooke character has been depicted as loyal, loving, gullible, weak, naive love-sick, seldom seen, arm candy for Rumple.
I know they’ll develope Rumple with strong story lines, and he will win Belle in the end. But, if the story is all about Rumple, I’m not interested in his eye candy.
I want the original Belle. The town line Belle. She’s awesome, and worth cheering for. Her story is what I’m interested in seeing.
I gotta say, I never thought I’d see the day where RumplesGirl would no longer defend Rumple or chose to stop supporting Rumbelle. Goes to show how much this show can change people.
To add my own two cents, I agree with RG that yes ultimately Rumbelle will get back together, because Adam and Eddy wouldn’t keep them separated for good. However, as it currently stands, they would have to build up a very convincing reason why they should get back together. I personally can’t defend Rumple’s actions in Season 4A at all. Wanting to be free of the dagger isn’t a bad thing, but the execution required to do so very much is. Freeing Rumple from the dagger does not excuse stealing a hat and absorbing magical people. Nor does it excuse Rumple killing Hook, whether you personally hate Hook or not. Yeah Hook should have known better than to blackmail the Dark One, but two wrongs do not make a right. And even if Hook hadn’t blackmailed Rumple, Rumple still would have tried killing him because his heart was the ingredient he needed for the spell to work. Even beyond that, Rumple was taking advantage over Belle’s blind devotion to him with the continuous lying and deceit. This was especially troubling when he did so during his freaking marriage proposal. Isn’t trust the most important thing, when it comes to a couple? Not to mention, I’m sure Belle still doesn’t know the full story behind Rumple’s recent events. She may not have figured out that Rumple was the one to kill Zelena, which would probably add more fuel to the fire if she were to find out.
You know, I’ve always been a RumBelle fan, but now I’m starting to think that I no longer care if they end up together or not. I’m still interested in their story, and I still love the show, but I’ve come to the surprising conclusion that at this point, I would not feel devastated if they didn’t end up back together. All I really care about is that Belle’s story is told, and that she isn’t forgotten. If she is a stronger character on her own than with Rumple, then so be it.
I hear ya, Angie!
I think it would be better for Belle not to be with Rumple at all. Even if she takes him back, how can she trust him again? A relationship without trust isn’t easy. Trust is very difficult to regain once it’s lost, especially when it’s someone you love. I feel like Adam and Eddy would drag out their relationship as much as possible until it’s inevitable end and that’s not what I want for Belle.
I want to see what Belle looks like on her own. I want to see her grow as a person and see her discover who she is without Rumple. I want to see if Belle can discover her own happiness.
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